SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Dr. Shirley Glass - saving people from themselves one book at a time.

FEEL the truth in her words, and understand what you need to do to make this right.

I'm proud of you for reading the book. Here's to deeper insight, humility, and the road to becoming a healer for your BW.

Unfortunately, seeing that something is the case and feeling it are too separate things. I intellectually understand that a lot of the things in my relationship with OW are eerily similar to what happens in lots of these affairs, even when other things that I find distasteful are involved.

But I don't know how to get to the point of feeling that my relationship with OW wasn't unique and amazing. It felt incredible. I still miss her a ton. Even knowing how much it's ruined my life and my BW's life, I still miss her. I still wonder about the amazing things we could do together.

I hope continuing to read and explore will help lead me to the truth. I fear it'll be too late, based on where my BW is. But I also don't want to drag her down further with me.

Thank you for the encouragement.

Hi Lostone - I'm coming in very late.

You have never gone NC with the OW. You went physical NC for six months - but that's nothing. You need physical NC forever.

And then you need mental NC. That means no googling, no facebooking, no whitepages just to look up her address. It means deleting every email, every chat session, every momento. It means throwing away the plane ticket of the times you met up, every card, every souvenir. It means not fantasizing, not recalling, not putting her in a pretty box in your head to savor on your drive to work. It means never listening to songs she liked, music that reminds you of her, tv shows.

It means wiping her from your future.

And it sucks. You go through awful withdrawal. You grit your teeth. Cry. But you canno give in. You exercise, organize the bills, weed, clean the garage. You donate clothes, volunteer at the soup kitchen, change everything.

One minute at a time.

Then another.

Then another.

If you do not do this, you will be posting this again in 6 months, a year, two years.

You are an addict. You need to quit.

Cold turkey.

One minute at a time.

Forever.

There is no way but through.

But I don't know how to get to the point of feeling that my relationship with OW wasn't unique and amazing.

Unique and amazing doesn't decimate the life of someone who trusted you.

It sounds to me like the key to understanding this is by letting everything that has happened co-mingle in the same room. You seem to still be tightly compartmentalizing everything. It's safer for you if the relationships are hermetically sealed - but the truth is, they're not. This is a self-preservation mechanism, and if you ARE seeking the truth, you're going to have to jump in front of the firing squad that is your own intellect.

The stories in Not Just Friends aren't just "eerily similar." Those hairs on the back of your neck that stand up when you read it? That's the haunting truth begging to be set free.

Healing from this doesn't mean getting to the point where you feel good and nothing warrants further conversation. Healing is when we accept the consequences of our actions, and strive to do the right thing. Not the dopamine fueled romance of books and movies. Actions that reverberate with honor and truth.

I feel like you're so close. Nobody's giving you an out here, and this because we want to see you succeed. Success is doing right by your wife. You can do it.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 1:15 AM, August 2nd (Thursday)]

But I don't know how to get to the point of feeling that my relationship with OW wasn't unique and amazing.

You get there through a journey of self-exploration that involves WHY you broke boundaries and allowed yourself, one lie or one bullying act at a time, to engage in an affair.

Getting to the why is ugly. It's like turning over a log in the forest and seeing all the creepy-crawlies underneath. It's human nature to want to avoid that, because we know it's gross and ugly. But there is truly no way to heal yourself or your marriage (and healing yourself is vital to your future--no matter what happens to your marriage) than to plunge ahead and turn over that log to look at the bugs and the rot and the nastiness.

Once you understand that the root cause of the affair is within YOU, not your marriage, and you see the weaknesses in YOU that spurred this behavior and you understand that YOU and your brokenness caused this, the AP could have been anyone. It's immaterial who she is or was. All of this was driven by your issues and insecurities, not with how "fabulous" she was or is.

Already, you are squirming and chafing under the blunt realities of some of your reading. This is good! But don't let the discomfort cause you to turn away from what needs to be done. There will be a lot more discomfort to come, but there will also then be healing.

Are you also aware that someone can have narcissistic traits which are huge barriers and issues in a relationship without being a full-blown narcissist? I see this as perhaps something you should explore in IC. You have some definite NPD traits, but you may not be a full-blown narcissist. However, those traits are going to be a huge barrier in any relationship because they are anti-relationship type thinkings and behaviors. Don't discount some of these things, as they may be true in your case. You don't have to be a full-blown narcissist.

I was married to a diagnosed narcissist for 22 years. It was hell. His lack of empathy and lack of a sense of partnership (as all shown by his actions, despite his words to the contrary) made it a very difficult situation. He had multiple affairs (he also had intimacy issues--his affairs were an attempt to not put all his emotional eggs in one relationship--that pop-off valve of which I spoke). He ended up with his last affair partner. He moved in with her and her kids (and our two teen daughters). It was always a rocky relationship, and it ended in late 2010.

The point I'm making here is that it wasn't and isn't that she is so fabulous and I'm not. She really could have been ANY mirror that reflected back to him what he wished to see. And in not understanding that and working in therapy to figure out what in HIM does these things, he's doomed to repeat the same cycle. He's 55 years old and trolling on Match for women. He dates them for a while, and then has to admit (or they find out) why his marriage and the major relationship thereafter failed. They usually leave at that point.

I don't want to see you "doomed" to this sort of life. You're young and have the world in front of you. The brave thing to do is to be courageous, find a very good IC that has experience in intimacy issues, NPD and affairs and do the tough work to find out the truth about your whys.

I'll be honest with you--your marriage may not last. You may have done way too much damage here. If that is the case, the best thing to do is to let her go with grace and dignity and to be truthful to EVERYONE in your circle and family about why the marriage failed. Do not badmouth her EVER. I'm sure she has her faults. We all do. But it is 100% on YOU the damage that has been done to your marriage.

Please consider all the good advice that has been offered. I believe you've gotten some great responses and people here truly want to see you rise above all of this and become the person you truly can be. It's difficult. But if you want to have a real relationship with someone, a relationship based on mutual respect, caring, love and understanding; if you want to truly have a partnership, it's time to recognize that you have none of the tools to make that happen and go to work to understand and learn from your past so that you can move forward and create a whole new future.

Cat

[This message edited by Catwoman at 4:33 AM, August 2nd (Thursday)]

So of everything I pointed out, the only thing that struck a chord with you is:

Are you seriously making fun of me because something triggers a memory of childhood abuse?

I'm not making fun of you, just pointing things out that you don't seem to notice.

I know you think that you and your situation are special little snowflakes, but they're not.

I know you think that you and your situation are special little snowflakes, but they're not.

I think people feel what they feel. If he says it is all special, it is. If he thinks the relationship with the OW is amazing, it was (to him). Lostone would like to keep both his M and his "special memories" (at the very least). I feel the wife should remove that choice for him by removing herself as an option under the circumstances.

Lostone, I hope you are not offended by what I said. I am just expressing to you a perspective from a BS. It sounds like she is moving toward a D. It is my feeling that you should not try to stop her feeling as you do. She has a right to want a husband with no special feelings left for his AP and she is exercising that right.

I suspect that your purpose here is to find a way to convince your wife to try polyamory. Any attempt here to get you to discuss seeing the affair as just another male mid-life crisis and to continue NC to reconnect with your wife is met with rejections and further stating how the OW is the most amazing, wonderful human being on your planet. So you're not at all willing to cut it off with OW, so cut it off with your wife instead.

Be a man and make a choice.

Your friend who was able to turn an affair into this situation probably has a spouse who doesn't give a crap about her, but doesn't want to pay child support or lose half his retirement, so he keeps the wife around and lets her date someone else, and gives her a screw for old-times sake once in awhile. Not exactly the kind of relationship that sounds all that great, and when she's older and sick, both of the guys will probably dump her because half the commitment means quick to run when times get tough.

Your wife loves you, so polyamoury would be a form of abusive behavior toward her to attempt to force her into this lifestyle out of her fears right now of being alone and on her own.

Let your wife go.

You say the only reason you're not with the OW is that it hurts your wife. But you are the one here who seems to be hanging onto her with ropes and talons because she's leaving - she's the one who is making moves to move out.

So let her move. Go live with your OW and stop torturing your wife with your attempts to manipulate her into accepting the OW into your lives.

[This message edited by Heavy Sigh at 8:24 AM, August 2nd (Thursday)]

Any advice? Is there any hope for me?

These were your original questions. You've been given great advice and you've talked around and rejected all of it, so no, I really don't think there is any hope.

I do emphasize that I told my BW about any hints or thoughts that it might be more than "just friends" but that when I told her it was "not romantic", I fully believed it. It didn't feel romantic at all.

During that time you truly believed it wasn’t romantic and over time you have come to realize that you were lying to yourself and everybody else.

So now, why can you not realize that you are still doing the same thing by continuing to see your relationship with your OW as this incredible “friendship” when it really was just a heinous act carried on by two very selfish, manipulative people? You are choosing to view it that way now just like you chose to deny you were cheating then.

Anybody can do what your OW did. I could blow smoke up your ass all day, make you feel like the most incredible man ever to live, stroke your ego repeatedly….but that doesn’t mean I’m your “friend”, that I have your best interests at heart, that I care about you or that I even like you at all. What it would mean is that either I’m truly manipulative and/or truly dysfunctional. Either way, I’d be using you for my own purposes…whatever they may be.

I was blocking a lot of the feelings that were motivating my behavior.

Seems like you still are.

Lostone, it sounds like you are into the fantasy world. Not just an affair fantasy world. You are a self proclaimed geek. I love LOTR myself, but I'm deeply rooted in reality.

I expect life to be hard and messy and a lot of the time -- unpleasant.

Some people expect life to be hearts and rainbows and sunshine and lollipops all the time and when it's not they are sadly disappointed in reality and they can't handle such disappointment, they chase rainbows. You expect a lot from people. You expect a lot from your friends and you are often disappointed with those relationships too.

That's what make affairs built in fantasy-land so appealing -- so special. It's straight out of a romance novel. It was all star-crossed lovers that were meant to be -- not rooted in reality. It's an escape -- like going to the movies.

Catwoman is right about narcissistic traits. I have some narcissistic traits myself and my H has a whole other set at the end of the spectrum. Don't discount exploring that route just because you aren't a full-blown NPD. This comes from childhood and it sounds like your relationship with your mother caused a lot of Foo problems for intimate mature love relationships.

One thing a WS needs to start an affair is a sense of entitlement. Narcissists have a grand sense of entitlement. You were somewhat honest with your wife but at the core of the bullying was entitlement that made you think you needed/wanted/deserved to have a relationship with the OW because she made you happy and the only thing that stood in your way was your BW. If she would only give in and see polyamory as the answer to your prayers.

You must understand that other people are not on this planet to make you happy. It's not their job. You need to find happiness within yourself.

http://www.angriesout.com/grown17.htm

An excerpt:

Living on Fantasy Island

People with narcissistic thinking and behavior strive to defend their fragile self esteem through fantasy and have blind spots in their thinking. Living in a fantasy world where all their needs are met and unrealistic expectations take the place of life. They become involved in material things, vanity, and are shallow developing excessive life long interest in things that are not real such as movies, rock stars, soap operas and video games. They fear their feelings, gaining deep friendships and intimacy and cannot develop mature love relationships.

Fantasy can become an attempt to not see what is really there in order to build up a fragile self-esteem. People with narcissistic traits process information, emotions and unresolved pain to make up for what they did not have in childhood. They often place unrealistic demands on others to make them feel better. They cannot tolerate negative emotional distress and turn it on others and blame them instead of looking within to see their own part of the problem. This is the defense of projection—what the person does not like in him or her self, they get angry at others who may have some of that same trait. Projecting one’s anger onto others instead of using it to learn and grow is always limiting.

Self image is distorted with the narcissistic point of view and the person believes that he is superior to others. An inflated self-esteem is a defense to cover up their sense of shame deep within. Grandiosity is an insidious error in thinking that prevents them from blaming themselves and becoming depressed or disintegrated. Creeping narcissism in a person is their succumbing to the gradual demands of selfishness and entitlement by giving in to “I am special” beliefs.

I think one of the most important realizations a Wayward needs to embrace is that the AP is not a "friend" and never was.

Friends don't help Friends commit adultery. Real friends help us be the best we can be. The only thing an AP helps you be is a liar and a cheat. Think about it. What is your definition of a friend?

I want to elaborate a bit on my original answer. I can see that it could be seen as cold and cruel and what with this being the wayward forum there is nothing I would want less than to be considered judgmental or harsh on the wayward. Believe it or not I have the UTMOST respect for those brave enough to come here and talk about their side. I have stated this numerous times: this site is founded by a couple that dealt with infidelity. One as a WS and the other as a BS. Both partners have contributed so much to others in the same or comparable situation.

OK – First of all: Polyamory, swinging, polygamy… whatever. If your idea of a perfect relationship were to involve rubbing bananas on each other while chanting “oompa loompa” then that’s fine by me. The ONLY condition I would set would be that ALL stakeholders have the age and capability to reach and make their own decisions on whether they want to be in a relationship on those conditions. If a married man/woman in an open marriage has a relationship within the jointly approved rules then that is not infidelity. We have had several cases here on SI where people in open marriage’s experience infidelity – not because of the sex but because the rules the partners set themselves for the format of the “other” relationships was broken.

Few if any of us start off a relationship by listing conditions. Chances are you and your wife never clearly stated that this was to be a monogamous relationship. But then – sometimes the obvious is simply implied. The deviation from norm has to be stated. Your wife probably expected a plain, old fashioned monogamous marriage.

Yes the affair happened. These things do happen. But once your wife demands commitment you basically are only entitled to two realistic options: divorce your wife or end the affair. OK – you CAN ask your wife for a changed relationship (polyamory or an open marriage) but she can refuse it. If you persist then SHE has two realistic options; accept polyamory or end the marriage. At the end of the day either of you has to commit to one of his/her options and the other has to accept that. That acceptance has to be totally based on free will. Not rammed down their throat.

I for one don’t think you ended the affair. The six month wait… well to me that’s just like if you normally only talked to OW every third day while the affair was active – only a slightly longer time-frame. Why do I make this claim? Well – you admit it yourself. Although you didn’t talk you monitored. If I was only thinking of your wife’s interest then what I would fear is that you would once again falsely commit to ending the affair and then break her heart again.

Basically you state that you love both of them. I can understand that. I can understand loving more than one person. But realistically you don’t have the option of keeping both loves. Love has to be mutual in order to be love. One sided it becomes a fixation. Love is like a plant – it has to be fed and maintained to thrive. I think you maintained your love for OW through the monitoring. I guess you might maintain your love for your wife by trying to remain in contact and even possibly by monitoring IF she chooses to leave this relationship. But given the chance EITHER the OW or your WW could get over you. Since you are not willing to give up OW then I ask you allow your wife to do that. It’s clear she isn’t willing to share you and that is a view she is totally entitled to. Just like you are entitled to select OW over your wife.

There might be a lot of things you need to deal with. Your issues regarding your mother, your preference for a relationship form… whatever. And those are all real and valid issues. But IMHO you can’t ask your wife to sit on the sidelines while you do. You have offered her your options, she has offered you hers and the decision is that a) she can’t accept yours and b) you can’t accept hers. So therefore I sincerely hope that she has the strength to move on.

It’s probably the rule rather than the exception and is totally unrelated to infidelity that relationships in a crisis can fall into a destructive communication pattern. You know – like how she reminds you of your mother, how she knows what buttons to push. That’s something MC deals with – opening communications and breaking bad patterns. But MC or IC won’t necessarily get her to change her view on polyamory.

If polyamory is your scene then fine, but make sure that all stakeholders in your relationships are aware of this, accept it and know the rules. As is your wife is being forced into this by you and there is no form of marriage that can work if either partner enters unwillingly.

Every problem has 3 possible solutions: remove yourself from the situation, change it, or accept it.

You tried to remove yourself from the OW for 6 months; that didn't change your feelings.

You tried to change it--you suggested polyamory to your wife, and she rejected a marriage of more than 2.

You must now accept it.

Dig deep and think. I think you just don't want to be that guy. The guy who has an affair and kills his marriage. It's killing you that you're that guy.

How do you accept that you're that guy?

[This message edited by ladies_first at 11:25 AM, August 2nd (Thursday)]

As usual, a fantastic post from Bigger.

During my affair I would have (and did) said I was deeply in love with my affair partner. We had a legitimate relationship history and I have no doubt that had we resumed dating four years after our breakup but I had been SINGLE, we would have had a reasonable shot at picking up where we left off.

But I was married. I had no business developing (or rekindling) feelings for someone else. And if those feelings were what I chose to act on, I actually had no business being married.

So I do get it, the feelings for both. But I also believe it's highly unlikely to build a good healthy relationship based on an affair. The trust won't be there and the stain of how it began will never be erased. And your wife should not have to compromise her feelings just to keep you around.

Every problem has 3 possible solutions: remove yourself from the situation, change it, or accept it.

THIS is what stopped me dead in my tracks at MC 1 1/2-2 years ago.

Things weren't going well with WH/BH (we were not connecting/communicating) & I dragged us there.

When the MC posed this Q:

"Do you accept WH/BH as it stands now? You can't change him."

I did not, but that would have meant leaving, so I remained paralyzed in Limbo & kept working on myself.

You have to take action & make choices.

Hopefully, your choice will align with who you really want to be.

I do not think you are in the "fog" I DO think you are swimming in mud my friend! How would you feel if the OW had a "friend" on the side that was just like you? How would you feel if your OW found someone else and wanted nothing else to do with you? Don't you think that is exactly what your BW thinks? I mean basically you threw tantrums to get your way with the OW. You don't need permission to have a platonic relationship with someone, so you knew that it was wrong, you asked permission because you knew that you were crossing SO many lines, your wife, out of fear, obliged you in so many ways that were so wrong for you to even consider. I am on board with so many others when they say that you have yet to realize that what you did is so wrong! You feel bad that your wife is hurt and cries, but you don't seem to feel bad that YOU are the one who made her that way. There is a very.....empty tone to your apologies, I hope that you get help to make you see how devastated and truly desolate your wife must feel...because of you. The OW is not the sweet, wonderful, cotton candy fluff of a person you think she is, she KNEW you were married and charged forward, (with you chasing right behind her) toward your wife, barreling her over!! She has done physical, mental, and emotional harm to your wife, WHAT about that gives you a nostalgic, lovey-dovey feeling? WHAT about that gives you the tickles that you can't seem to get rid of? Just stop and think for a second....My wife is hurt, devastated, because of me and OW, but I still have feelings of longing for OW. Why? How can you move on without knowing that these longing feelings, are what destroyed another person?

lostone,

I'm late to the conversation, but I hope you have room for one more voice.

My A was with a very serious college XBF, my first "true love", the one that got away. We had been broken up for almost 7 years when the EA started and I romanticized him for pretty much that whole time.

This OM was the one who broke off the A. He said he did it because he wanted to do the right thing. He didn't want me to be "that woman", he didn't want to break up a family, he wanted to be able to look himself in the mirror. I heard all of that and thought, what a stand-up guy. What I ignored was the part where he said he'd always love me and *if* I chose him, he'd be there for me. So I romanticized him some more.

(Pardon me while I at the memory).

I missed him as long as I was willing not to look at myself as a person. It was easy to miss him when I ignored the fact that I WAS "that woman", that I looked my H in the face and lied, that I risked my H's health, that I risked my DS's stability at home. Once I actually looked at, acknowledged, and accepted what I had done and stopped running away and giving excuses; when I accepted responsibility for what I had done to myself, to my H and to my son - that was the moment I realized the OM was nothing and no one, and that he was not special.

Getting to that point to accept what I had done was painful. It was much easier to miss him and to romanticize our A than to admit I had cheated. It doesn't sound like you have dug deep and acknowledged what you've done, but once you do, you're much more likely to stop missing her. But you HAVE to sit in your A and not run from it.

And speaking from the BS's side of the fence - it is NOT unreasonable for your BW to want you to have no good feelings for the OW. She wants to know she is special above all others, and you continuing to hold someone who destroyed her world in such high regard fails to do that.

ETA: I hit SEND too fast!

[This message edited by whatjusthappened at 3:56 PM, August 2nd (Thursday)]

I missed him as long as I was willing not to look at myself as a person. It was easy to miss him when I ignored the fact that I WAS "that woman", that I looked my H in the face and lied, that I risked my H's health, that I risked my DS's stability at home. Once I actually looked at, acknowledged, and accepted what I had done and stopped running away and giving excuses; when I accepted responsibility for what I had done to myself, to my H and to my son - that was the moment I realized the OM was nothing and no one, and that he was not special.

Yes. How "special" is someone that doesn't give a crap about another person (your BW)?

Getting to that point to accept what I had done was painful. It was much easier to miss him and to romanticize our A than to admit I had cheated. It doesn't sound like you have dug deep and acknowledged what you've done, but once you do, you're much more likely to stop missing her. But you HAVE to sit in your A and not run from it.

VERY PAINFUL. Looking into your BS's eyes & seeing the pain you've caused...well, of course you want to bolt back to fantasyland, BUT it's not just to get present to the impact your choices have had on your BW, it's also for YOU to grow into a mature human being.

She wants to know she is special above all others, and you continuing to hold someone who destroyed her world in such high regard fails to do that.

THAT made me cry, that was such a good insight...

I suspect that your purpose here is to find a way to convince your wife to try polyamory.

Why do you think this? I haven't said anything of the sort. I havent brought up polyamory with my BW since January. She said no. End of story.

how the OW is the most amazing, wonderful human being on your planet.

Actually, you and others have been saying that. I never used the word "soulmate", but many others here have. I have said I have feelings. I have said I have fondness for memories. I said the affair felt good.

I have not put OW on a pedestal. Many people here have said I have put OW on a pedestal. Not sure where you all are getting that from.

I have "defended" her by taking responsibility for pushing forward with the affair and not telling her about my BW's objections sooner. By the end, though, yes, she should have ended things or said something because by the end she knew what was going on. I should have as well.

I've gotten a lot of good advice on this thread and a lot of honesty, but I must admit I feel like some people here are projecting things onto me, BW, and OW that I haven't said.

And, frankly, none of you know the circumstances of my friend's arrangements. I didn't got into details at all. I only really know about her arrangements and experiences from what she's told me - I've met her husband but I don't know him well. I only mentioned her as a possible influence on my behavior, not a model that I actually think I can copy.

I feel so badly for your BW.

You are making excuses.

You are putting OW on a pedestal.

You are defending OW.

You are defending yourself.

I think you need to re-read this thread, take a step back and give it some serious thought.

Either you want to recommit to your wife, or you don't. OW cannot exist as an option or as someone you have a longing for if that is going to happen.

You've already put your wife through enough. Be honest with yourself, and be kind to her.