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We are 3 months from DD. I asked him to leave that night and he is living with his mother. He and i both started IC. At first I couldn't be around him at all. Then I hit panic attack mode with HB sex and we started to talk about R. He kept bringing up past M issues how he was not happy and I was mean to his mother. We did have lots of issues around his mother but now is not the time to bring those up. He wanted me to see his IC and to address his pain. I refused and pulled 180. He asked me to see MC not his IC.

It has been 1 month seeing MC 3x and I am still 180 and getting stronger each day. I only see him when he picks up kids or at MC. I still don't engage him in any conversations. I show no anger or pain anymore unless we are in MC.

First session: I asked ? About The A as I don't have all facts. He gave same lame answers and continued to bring up his pain and his mommy. He objected to being interrogated. MC asked about his IC and what he has learned. He says he loves IC and he looks forward to it that he shares everything with her. He has learned he was passive in the M and did not communicate his needs or feelings. He felt shut down by me. I remember it differently. I would go to him to talk and if the conversation got too difficult for him, he would pick a fight, I would get defensive and then he would be justified to end the discussions. I realize now this was all control and manipulation. To hear him tell it I was an awful domineering wife who would not accept his feelings.

Second session: I gave him ?s written down and we continued to talk about our M. How unhappy he was and I was. How alone he felt and i felt.

The problem is, I did not know he was having the A the entire time. I was unhappy too but now it makes sense why I felt rejected and alone. I can't understand why he felt rejected and alone. I was there begging him to go to MC. He always refused me. He also was not having sex with me. I shut down and poured myself into the kids and work. All he focuses on in MC are me and how I ignored him or how I didn't like his mother.

Third session: He did not answer my ?s. says he answered them already and should he be expected to be interrogated at each session. The MC told him i needed honest answers to feel safe and i would need to ask the ? as often as needed until that time. The MC asked him about how he felt during the A and he said that it was not about sex but about feeling good and having easy conversations without fighting. He said with me he was always being confronted with things and arguments would happen. With OW they were fun and easy unlike me who always seemed angry. He continues to point the finger at me and claims we are both equally to blame and that I am a narc and always blame everyone else for my mistakes in M.

I told him and MC that we have no M. I asked him why he wants R if he is so unhappy. I suggested he is free now to have all the OW he wants. We are separated and I am done. I told both him and MC that unless he focuses on the A and answers my ? We have nothing to talk about. We can not talk about his mommy or the M until he addresses the A.

Now he wants to meet next week to address the ? I'm not sure i want to go to hear the same lies and accusations. I am ready to move on. I feel MC is stuck and getting us nowhere. Is this normal? Should I be expected to do MC with an unremorseful WH? I feel he will throw me under the bus with the kids and tell them mom doesn't want to work on the M. But right now I am ready to file for D. The only thing stopping me is that I read here about TT and some WS take months to get to true remorse but I don't know if I can take these MC sessions. I feel strong and ready to move on. I am starting to detach emotionally and don't have any respect for him. I actually feel that it is more about his behavior now and the patterns of control, lies and manipulation than about OW. He also had severe financial betrayals, keeping loan secret for thee years and investing and losing money in stock market without telling me. All of the lies and blame shifting and manipulations are just becoming too overwhelming. I don't think I can stand much more. Is this normal? I'm afraid if I quit too soon I may regret it but I feel like MC is used by him to bash me. Does anyone have similar experiences that may offer hope or not hope. I just feel stuck but at the same time I am getting stronger alone.

[This message edited by eyesrnowopen at 7:19 AM, June 19th (Wednesday)]

I am not a seasoned veteran here on SI but one thing I have read countless times is there MC is pointless with an unremorseful spouse. It truly is crazy making. I did it for a few sessions and stopped. It went no where and made the situation worse. We are back in mc and it is a better experience but still some hiccups along the way.

You are not expected to do mc with an unremorseful spouse. You are choosing to try and give him another chance despite him acting out and having an affair. He is too busy pointing fingers at what you did wrong, it is easier to focus on you than himself.

If you do choose to go to the next session where he will answer questions, be prepared to walk out if he tries to pull the same behaviors as before. Then 180 his ass harder. I have read here you have to being willing to loose your marriage before some WH wake up. Some WH will not wake up. It sounds like you are to the point already.

blameiontherain has it right. The WS really has to identify, own, and begin to work on addressing his or her A-related crap before it is possible for him or her to be a fully functioning partner in fixing the M.

About The A as I don't have all facts. He gave same lame answers and continued to bring up his pain and his mommy.

See above.

A written timeline of his A, with earnest response to your follow-up questions might be a good requirement for talking about R and MC.

He has learned he was passive in the M and did not communicate his needs or feelings. He felt shut down by me.

See above. This is passive, playing the victim. Having him discuss how he intends to communicate better with you, and then demonstrating this over a sustained period of time might be a good requirement for talking about R and MC.

We are separated and I am done.

If this is true, then there is no purpose to MC. I can understand this feeling with a WS who is unremorseful, blame-shifting, and unable to communicate effectively.

Should I be expected to do MC with an unremorseful WH?

No.

FWW and I did some MC shortly after dday, but our MC/IC consistently called her out on her blame-shifting and rewriting of the M history. Eventually, it took 2+ years of IC for her until she was able to be a real participant in MC for us.

I think the question is whether or not your H owns what he did. To me, the remorse question still lies in the future.

My bet s that it'll be a long road to R for you, with lots of bumps. First he has to get that he cheated and that cheating damages him, you, and your relationship. Then he has to find remorse, identify and fix his problems, and right now it sounds like he's not even at the starting line.

So if you don't want to be with him even if he changes into a great partner, MC seems like a waste - although you could use it to negotiate your relationship during the rest of your separation and post-D periods.

If, however, you still see the possibility of a good life with him, if he changes into a great partner, then I think it's worth another hour in MC to see if he will actually deliver what he promises.

Also, do you have requirements for R? If not, it would probably be a good idea to go to the MC session with your reqs written down on paper - if your H agrees to meet them, R is possible. If he doesn't agree to them (perhaps with some changes that are OK with you), you know R won't work.

What real harm could one more MC session do? You have your MCs support. Your WS seems willing to answer your questions this next session. Just go. And if it turns out to be a waste of your time (again), say so.

Good for you for not falling into the trap of talking about all of the things you did wrong in the marriage in marriage counseling before addressing the A. I was so desperate to fix our marriage that I went along with MC that focused on communication and our problems with that while allowing my WH to basically minimize and lie about the A. This went on for months. It was AWFUL and pointless. He sounds majorly passive aggressive. At some point the two of you will have to work on this issue because there are things you are bringing to that equation that are going to take HARD work in order for your marriage to work in the long run; but no way should you be doing that in lieu of healing from the trauma of the affair.

I would clearly communicate to your WH that you are giving him one last chance to answer your A questions honestly in MC. Put the questions in writing and CC the MC. Make it clear that if he does not answer not only are you done with MC, but that you will file for divorce. If you like, make it clear that you absolutely want to work on marital issues, but it can't happen until you have healed from this trauma. By cc'ing the MC he or she can help hold him accountable. Then, be prepared to walk out of MC if he doesn't follow through.

Filing for divorce doesn't mean finishing it. It just sounds like he really needs to see that his current level of 'commitment' to your marriage isn't good enough. He is doing this because he is getting away with it. His IC clearly isn't holding him accountable, which sucks; but beyond your control. Your WH needs to want to get healthy and heal himself.

eyesrnowopen,

Stick to your guns. Demand a timeline and demand answers to all your questions. he doesn't want to answer them because it makes him uncomfortable. It's all about them. My fwh did the same thing. Except for the first two years after DDay#1 we were in MC he was still caring on and lying to both me and our MC and his own IC. After DDay#2, I lowered the boom- get out and no more MC until he fixed himself. He started a SA program and once he was doing well there, we started MC again.

That's when I demanded answers and a timeline and I told him and the MC if I don't get this I am out.

That's when everything came out.

If your WH is not willing to be transparent and forthcoming and answer ALL your questions what's the point of MC? Also, this blame shifting is very common so don't let him manipulate you with this.

None of this was your fault. Stay strong.

My husband is doing the same thing. He wants to talk about my "communication" instead of his betrayal and dishonesty. We were in marriage counseling before he began his affair and he told OW that MC wasn't working. Of course it wasn't working, he was waiting for me to become a dishonest flatterer like she is. We had real issues that needed to be addressed, some were in our control (how we treated each other, honesty, communication) and some were not (sudden deaths, sick realitves, injured children, drug addiction). Instead my "happy-go-lucky husband wanted to play.

When I tell him I don't feel safe with him because he has been so dishonest and sneaky while I was fighting for the life of our family, he says he doesn't feel safe and he wants to talk about it with a counselor present. He doesn't feel safe because I hurt his feelings when we talk and he is afraid to be honest. He says its a marriage problem but I have seen his dishonesty with EVERYONE he talks to. He also says that his mom called him on something he told her before we even met. Since that time he has questions what the use of being honest is. I hope to find a counselor that will challenge him on his thought process. He really does present himself well. It takes awhile to see the cracks.

Anyway, since the MC you are seeing together is standing up for you and not allowing your WH to rugsweep, I think it would be good to continue going. Hopefully, he will open up this time. I think he is bringing up his mom and his unhappiness to avoid taking responsibility. They may be a problem but he sure didn't make it better by cheating on you. Since he dumped that layer of CR-- on your marriage, it will have to be cleaned up before you can deal with the other issues. It sounds like you are working the 180 very well. Even seeing his excuse making will help you get stronger no matter whether you reconcile or not.

My wifes fog lasted for months....only I didn't know about the fog at the time...so that pretty much sucked.

I bring this up because it is likely your husband is still in the fog.

I agree with Knowing...your MC is supportive of the truth...that is what you are seeking and perhaps what your husband is hiding from. This is a safe, direct format to get to the truth.

Yes, a remorseful spouse would be GREAT and is needed for real R. But in my case there had to be some ground clearing before R could start. I can see that now.

Be patient with yourself. I can sense your urgency in your post as I am there too...the need to fix is great. And by fix I mean make a decision as to whether your marriage will rebuild or divorce. But as time passes I see value in patience.

think of it this way. MC sessions for us are 1 hour in length. Approach with an open mind and remind yourself this is 1 hour...I can do this tough task because I know it has an end.

I am not defending WS. I just want to point out that they are wrestling with their actions even if they don't outwardly show it. The fact that your husband is wanting to go to MC and continue to try and answer your questions is a good thing.

His responses thus far are part of your past...don't let them haunt and taint your future. I have not mastered this either...but us continuing to punish them for past hurts will do nothing but hurt our chances of R.

WS know what they did was wrong...we don't need to remind them.

It is unfair...but try and find the courage to continue MC sessions. Go with the expectation that you are there to observe and listen....try to refrain from counter points to his statements....take them at face value and try NOT to find the motives behind his statements. If your MC is good they will probe for you...have him find for himself the answers as to what drives him.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 4:22 AM, June 20th (Thursday)]

Thank you for your responses. I posted another thread here on thr R board because WH gave me an article about WW who stuck by her man. This made me mad as he is pushing me again.

I asked him to schedule our next session after he completes timeline and questions. I have not heard back from him.

Your right about the anger and I agree we both are masking deep pain with it. I feel like he stuck a knife in my back and now instead of pulling it out and stopping the bleeding, he wants me to run a marathon with it stuck there. I JUST CAN'T MOVE.

I can see I need to get the knife out myself and if that is the case it will be a long hard recovery without R.

I can't do R with a knife in my back. I feel like he is watching me bleed out and once all the marital blood is gone I will have nothing left. In order to recover I have to detach. I feel my marriage draining away. BUT I am getting stronger as my marriage gets weaker.

I am rambling. Does this make sense?

Hugs, eyes. Big, big hugs.

I like your imagery about the marathon. It's so true.

I said something similar to my husband this weekend, that when someone comes to you injured, you don't interrogate them how they got hurt, why you should help them, and castigate them that you feel stressed by them being hurt - while they bleed out at your feet.

I think it's a fulcrum we all reach at some point after being betrayed: is our pain recognized as much as our spouse's/SO justifications and feelings about what they did. If that never is on equal footing, there's really no chance of reconciliation.

i completely understand how you feel. i think you are on the right track. you cant r with an unremorseful spouse. a wise SIer told me a long time ago..."your wh should be willing to move heaven and earth to help you heal and be emotionally safe."

if he is not doing that...it is time to end mc, communicate your boundaries and then do a hard 180.

the other posters are spot on, you must be willing to lose the m in order to save it with your dignity and self respect intact.

my wh refused to give me access to his phone records after dday2. gave me every excuse in the world. he said..."you are going to end our m over phone records?!!" i said yes i am. and put him out. i was devastated becasue i knew what that meant..about him, and what he was still doing...but i needed to know the truth about exactly what was going on in my m.

he could not come back or attempt an r without those records.

he eventually gave them to me...and he had been up to no good the entire time...it broke my heart. but i needed to know the truth before i could begin to heal.

stay strong. i think you are doing right.