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I think if you work together on the communication then the sexual side of this will improve as well. You really cannot tell your BH that he needs to improve sexually to match the OM's skill. You might as well tell him that while you are walking out the door with your bags because I think you'll be done. I genuinely believe that with better intimacy your sex life would improve and the communication side of your lives is something that can be fixed.

I would caution you to not put all of this on your BH to change either. Take some of this on yourself and recognize that the OM was looking for ways to get into your pants so of course he was empathetic. Asking you about your problems, being understanding, letting you cry on his shoulder, telling you that you were right and everyone was wrong, etc. That was a means to an end. He didn't have to understand any of the background or nuance in anything you said. He didn't have to point out where you might be wrong or live with any of the results of any decisions you made like your husband has to.

Think about encounters with the OM related to you telling him about problems you have. Did he really give good advice or just let you talk and then steer the intimate moment towards sex? Yes your husband could get better I am sure in this area because we all could but you can as well. Take the pressure off the sex for now because that is just a minefield of problems but don't be surprised that it will improve on its own if you both work on the communication.

[This message edited by beenthereinco at 10:37 AM, August 10th (Thursday)]

Also to add because this is something I relate to all too well.

Putting my W on pedestal was something I did. The thing I did not realize that while I thought it showed her that I loved her it also set a standard so high that she felt she could never measure up. I ignored the faults and elevated the positives. She believe it to be fake therefore she doubted my love as words I supposed to say because I am her husband. While I can say it was genuine on my part, my wife knew she was not perfect and stopped being that person. Everything I put her on the pedestal it eroded her self esteem. Real life became a lie.

She desperately wanted to be perfect as I unknowingly set that expectation. She could so she escaped where she thought she could be.

Being on a pedestal sounds nice in theory, but creates expectations that most people can ever attain.

It begins to feel false after awhile as the individual "knows" that aren't who their spouse sees them as. It begins to be a trust issue and it forces some pedestal spouse to escape that feeling of worthlessness.

OMG Yes! We had this "conversation" a lot! I hated that pedestal...and he always just told me "he put a face pedestal a little higher next to it, just to make me feel better"

I find this very perplexing. While you were in the A, in your mind it was ok for you to step out on your H, but you were hurt that your AP had another OW? But him being married didn't bother you?

While I was in the A...I thought I was special, I thought what we had was special. It is the most cliche thing when I look back. It wasn't until after the A that I found out I wasn't and he was just saying whatever he needed to keep me attached to him...hanging on his every lie and I believed him. When the affair first started H and I were so closed off and I was so weak and stupid that I was actually trying to get caught by my H. I would wear OM's clothing to bed (smelling like him) I wore the jewelry he gave me. I should have just talked to H...I wasn't scared and taking the chicken Sh*& way out. Even if it didn't work. Then I ended the A...then went back..believing that my happiness is what mattered. I started to realize I was wrong and after a trip with OM, I had decided to end the A, but hadn't done so before getting caught by H....after everything came out (and I did tell H EVERYTHING) I realized how cookie cutter my blindness was and that he was just saying what he needed to get what he wanted

While I was in the A...I thought I was special, I thought what we had was special. It is the most cliche thing when I look back. It wasn't until after the A that I found out I wasn't and he was just saying whatever he needed to keep me attached to him...hanging on his every lie and I believed him

This is exactly what I meant when I said he "listened" to you when you were insecure and upset and had your asshole voice on.

This was manipulation to get you to put out. He saw that you were exceptionally needy in this area and used it to play you.

If a con person (man or woman) sees a need that great it's a weakness and probably disproportionate to what you would expect to find in a healthy well adjusted adult.

Interesting that you seem to on some level recognize that OM's ability to listen and empathize was little more than a manipulation to get what he wanted, but "miss" that quality in him and view it as something missing in your husband. Isn't it better that your husband (I'm assuming) genuinely loves you and wants you to be happy, despite having difficulty expressing those feelings and allow you to be heard -- whereas other man was really just all talk?

Reading your story I can feel your struggle as you try reconnecting with your H. However while I see you trying to re-invest in your husband I can also you looking back fondly at your AP relationship through the affair fog. Some of the statement seem to bring this to light.

You talk about your OM only having "2 small things" he did better and more satisfying than your husband. Sex and emotional communications. To me and truly to you also, those are not minor, they are 2 of the most important. So important you said you put the A and AP above your M and H for over a year. I think you mentioned one of strengths that your husband brought to the table was he loved to travel. Not much of a counter balance and it showed as you went 2ce into the affair. Sounds like you also traveled with the OM. So please don't trivialize the importance you put on those things. What is also sad is you seem to dismiss your husband about ever being able to fulfill those major rolls. You don't trust in your H capabilities as you did the OM. You don't seem to want to fully engage with H, at least not like what the OM got in the A.

Now to the trust you so freely gave the AP and still don't seem to have fully given your H. Really you just allowed OM to manipulate you with a listening ear and a few canned phrases into bed. Then not being able to handle that OM may have had some other WW on the side beside you. Seems you hate OM for treating you like you treated your H. That should show you that your H can do great thing. H has the maturity to try to overcome what you have done to H and really what you continue to do to him with your lack of confidence in H. You should be on your knees thanking H and not even thinking of having/not getting your "2 small needs met". You should be concentrating on what you can do to help this great man recover what you have stolen from him.

Sorry I am a bit harsh. I do truly think you are trying on the surface but I know you still have some foggy layers to peal back in the way you still view the A/OM and your M/H. You detached from the H during the affair and have to get those feelings back to move forward with H and yourself. Best of luck to the both of you in reaching that goal. BTW if you know your H can't ever meet those "2 small needs" you are right. But if your put some faith in H and yourself I know that this is a scenario you can also be right in that is your H meeting those "2 important" needs. As a human I am constantly reminded that my fellow travelers on this orb we call earth can and do some pretty amazing things. Not all roads lead to Rome but I believe you can find that way.

I know my moving around a lot has had me develop a strong independence from others emotionally. I never had a best friend or even a close friend. I reinvented myself every time I moved to make friends and fit in. I have trouble getting emotionally attached to people.

You really need to explore this in IC. These are essentially the same things you are telling your husband. Both of you have trouble relating emotionally.

You can do this, but it is long hard work.

I know my moving around a lot has had me develop a strong independence from others emotionally. I never had a best friend or even a close friend. I reinvented myself every time I moved to make friends and fit in. I have trouble getting emotionally attached to people.

Interesting because you demand an emotional investment from your BH.

I think SpoonintheRoad makes some great points. Remember that the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. You're still pissed off at him because he had yet another woman on the side and you weren't "special". Because you still care. You're still in the fog.

Unless your H is dead, he can learn the things you want from him. If you want some bullshit lines, I'm sure he can learn to do that. If you know he puts you on a pedestal, the "specialness" if not spoken, is implied heavily. And for the sex part, a little gentle instruction and toys. He sounds like he has cared for you and taken care of you very well for a long time. You're lucky.

This woman oh my God.

She is mad,sad,hurt and only ended her affair because OM was cheating on her with third/fourth woman.

You are not remorseful. You are only sorry because you feel cheated on in your own affair.

I wish your husband the best.He deserves better.

Take a deep breath.

Life can be tough, but after an A, life is not the same, but it a whole new nightmare.

It will never be the same, but it can be better someday.

The OM did have others and the A was really him getting what he wanted and he was fake.

Should not be a surprise. But he is good, he has had a lot of practice.

Today is a new day. Sometimes this place can be tough, very tough.

you can not change the past, but you can make this day a good one.

What do you want? Think hard about that. And work to make this day a positive one.

If you do want your marriage, the old one is dead, murdered. You can try to make a new one, but before all that effort, make sure your H is who you want, warts and all.

My friend tried to get past his wife's first boyfriend. He was shattered, but he stayed. He found out that she now has two boyfriends. He filed for D. Neither boyfriend wanted her now that she is divorced and they found out about all her men.

Do not do this to your H. My friend is inconsolable.

Her family is upset with her.

You would not do this. Can you love your H and remove the fondness of the sex with the lying OM? This will harm you future marriage.

Good luck to your and your H.

Remember how you would feel if he had an A.

Sometimes to get better, just make your and his day a good one today.

I demand nothing of H. Never have.

I also do not hate OM, I just don't care about him. He lied to me and I feel stupid for believing him, but I don't hate him, or need revenge.

My therapist actually squeezed me into an appt. yesterday and it went very well. She agreed with what some of you had said and sharing EVERYTHING may not always be a good idea, or at least finding ways to phrase things where your emotions come across but it is made clear that I am not comparing OM to H and to make it clear how much H means to me and how special what intimacy we do have is.

When he got home that night we talked a LOT about everything. He seemed to feel better. We even made love before going to bed and it felt amazing. I have lots of hope for us and I feel he does too.

We are leaving for a weekend away camping with the kids today and he is very excited. He seems in great space today. The therapist also wanted to meet with him, so his appt is next week and another appt with me the week after.

It is a journey and I know there are ups and downs, but I honestly believe H and I work well together and have a great life planned ahead.

When I get upset, instead of supporting me or talking to me, he tells me why I can't feel that way.

Muttmatch

This is a man woman thing. Women tend to want to talk about problems, men what to fix them.

We had moved to a new area when my daughter was in middle school. We didn’t order yearbook at the first of the school year because she didn’t know anyone. The last day of school she came home all upset because there were only 15 “extra” yearbooks and she was never going to have a yearbook.

I said we should go now and see if they still have some. She said that they're probably all gone. So I sat down. Then she complained about not getting one. So I got up and offered to go. Then she went back to saying that they are probably all gone.

We went through several cycles of this and I was getting mad. Then I realized that my daughter was now a woman. I sat down and told her how sorry was that she wasn’t going to have a yearbook. That it must really hurt but we will get one for the next school year.

Then she was OK. Tell your husband that.

OM was always someone I could talk to, even when I didn't want to talk. I don't want H to be OM, but I would love to have him be the person that makes me feel better.

Muttmatch

OM sounds very special.

Giving me an open and safe place to be emotional. H is not an emotional person and when I am hurt or upset, I get really insecure and have what is called my "a$#hole voice". (a name given by OM)

Muttmatch

For the OM to come up with a pet name for your upset self means that he found it entertaining in some way. You’re better able to do that (i.e. stand back and find humor) when you’re not invested. Plus he was paid with sex for his understanding behavior and could go to his home and not deal with you as much as your husband had to.

Don’t give the OM too much credit over your husband for that. The OM had a big advantage.

It wasn't until after the A that I found out I wasn't and he was just saying whatever he needed to keep me attached to him...hanging on his every lie and I believed him.

Muttmatch

Yep. Men are great listeners and conversationalist about boring subjects when they know that there will be sex when the talking stops. It’s a form of foreplay. The woman feels so special that they jump the guy.

[This message edited by Michigan at 12:42 PM, August 11th (Friday)]

Yes, I do not believe any two people are ABSOLUTELY perfect for each other in every way.

You say that, but your actions prove otherwise. You sound like men are KISA. Your husband was and the OM. Now, you hate the other man and have turned victim. He lied, he took advantage

This left a crack that OM took full advantage of.

No. You did that. You opened the door. You took full advantage of him as well. Looking for someone to fill you 100%. Your husband sounds like he listens and tries to solve your problems. You just want someone to listen. Which apparently was more important to you than your husband. You want to be wanted. Desired. You thought you had that with OM and was fine with the relationship till you found out otherwise. That he lies and wants many woman. Now you hate him because you aren't on the pedestal there. You are with your husband. But, still not happy because he isn't perfect. You sound regretful and not remorseful. Like your husband is an object. It is all about what you don't have. Are you capable of not having everything and living with it? You say you are, but you had an affair to prove otherwise. You came on here to see how you can get what you don't have because you did get it from your affair.

Right now the change needed should be you and being enough for yourself. To stop needing a KISA. You say you don't like the pedestal but your posts make it clear how you enjoy it and put yourself up there. Be special enough for yourself.

Yeah, your still in the fog because you are angry you weren't special to the OM and on that pedestal that means a lot to you. I hear no remorse for you husband. Just for yourself. Your losses. What about your husband? What about him feeling special?

You don't sound emotionally cut off. You seem more emotionally dependent on other people and view them as objects. How they can make you feel and what needs they can meet. Nothing about what you really give and for the one time you did mention it-it was followed by I do this for my husband but he doesn't fill it in return the way I want him to.

You put the marriage problems first before your personal problems and faults. It was probably a big huge mistake to go to MC before IC. This reinforced some selfish behaviors. The problems are your expectations. Your behaviors and values. Your husband sounds like a normal man when it comes to communication. Can he get better at it? Yes, but that was no excuse to cheat. You cheated for your own selfish reasons. Focus on that and you.

Muttmatch you said the following:

"was fogged in with OM....he made me feel good but since DDay I have learned how much he lied to me...so yes..i hate OM”

“I also do not hate OM, I just don't care about him. He lied to me and I feel stupid for believing him, but I don't hate him, or need revenge”

So I ask which one is it? Because your contradiction is obvious but you were consistent in both statements that it was "his lies" that created the issue between you two. Not that you wanted to be with H/ or wanted your marriage. That was not the compelling reason to end the affair. But that it was because OM lied to you - you weren't special as he led you to believe, he had another or other women and that was the straw that so to speak broke the camel's back.

I am not trying to trap you only trying to really understand your intention in R with your H. For me this is important to identify true remorse, honesty, trustworthiness.

It dawned on me that I was not the only one who came to this conclusion having read your own statements. Trtroles stated:

“She is mad,sad,hurt and only ended her affair because OM was cheating on her with third/fourth woman.

You are not remorseful. You are only sorry because you feel cheated on in your own affair”.

So can you help me understand clearly what's going on here? Thanks.

Yes. I do see my contradictory statement. Put it this way, I don't think about OM and get raging mad, I don't seek revenge or think fondly of him. When asked if I hate him, I mean it in the sense of I have no interest in him. I see what an awful person he was to me and do not wish him well, but I have let that go and don't spend much time at all thinking about him.

Coming on this forum and venting about the A is the most effort I have spent talk about OM, I spend most of my mental energy and time working on what I have in my life and what I need to do to make H happy. I don't compare OM to H, I compare what my issues is are and what I need to change to make myself better for my husband. I have things that bug me as well and I find it difficult to see that line of talk about everything and be 100%, but don't talk about your problems or what hurts you, because that doesn't matter because you were the one that had the A. Yes, my husbands pains are more valid than mine, and his issues are more important than mine. It doesn't mean I don't feel my pain or my issues, and pushing them down or not talking about them...isnt that bad?

Have you done any work on yourself and identified your issues? Where you lack character, values, and morals? Your weaknesses?

You are special to your husband. You pointed out so many times how he worships you. Why wasn't that enough? Why did you choose to take advantage of that and to take it for granted just because he wasn't feeding you ego kibbles? Just because he didn't communicate in an emotional way just like you? Just because he didn't do a sex act a certain way.

Take a step back and really evaluated if your needs and wants were realistic and if they could even be met by the average person? Not just where your marriage and husband lacks. IMO that is what all your posts were about. How your husband can change. How he can fill in the fantasy characteristics the affair partner had. Not about how you can change.

Just saying.

Go back and reread what you wrote. You contradict yourself in every post. When you get called out, you change your stance. We were all in your shoes at some point. You are struggling and we are trying to tell you that from your posts you are focusing on the wrong things right now. Fix you first. Then, when the time is right and you are out of the fog and have more remorse start focusing more on the marriage issues and where your husband is weaker.

Personally, I think you are taking advantage of how nice your husband is and how understanding and piling a shit load of expectations on him to fix instead of yourself. I agree with many of the other posters. You sound like you are trying to turn your husband into the AP and that is just sick. Why does he have to change? Why can't you? Why can't you just meet him in the middle? Accept his weaknesses that he will never be the perfect emotional guy like the lying AP?

I don't think your problems and reasons have to do with the marriage, your husband or the AP. It is you. Being enough for yourself and not needing to be put up on the "special pedestal". Handling your own problems and emotional workload instead of offloading them on other people. You are using all the others as scapegoats for your own personal let down.

Hi Muttmatch, this is my first post on SI.com as I just joined yesterday. I just wanted to let you know that I am in a VERY similar situation (even the dreaded #2). I would send you a PM, but can't until after 50 posts. I just wanted to tell you that you're not alone and I've taken so much comfort already from this website and a few others I have found. Hang in there!

Mutt,

I usually don't comment on this forum. Having been a victim of infidelity before, I can tell you that despite your best efforts, this is never going to be better. You took something from your husband that you can never give back. Even if you spend the next 20 years trying to be the model wife, in the back of his mind, this is always going to be there.

I applaud the efforts of your husband for trying to make it work (no doubt for your children). You ask what you can do to make things better? The short answer, after reading this thread...an amicable divorce.

The fact that you not only flaunted this A in his face (wearing OM clothes and jewelry), but stating in no certain terms that he cannot compete sexually to the OM makes MY blood boil. I cannot even fathom how your H must feel. He must feel totally and completely emasculated. I'm sure he loves you, and loves his family dynamic. I cannot see how he can overcome this however.

Whether 1,5 or 10 years down the road, prepare for the train to be derailed. Give him a divorce. Let him find a woman who will not crush this man's heart. It is the least you can do. I wish you the best.

Did I read correctly that you were dating OM when you started dating your husband? You were using OM to escape and hide from your abusive husband until someone better came along?