SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Rocket,

Remember I said that in the subject of infidelity there's lots and lots to disagree about and fight over ? ( I really didn't say that, I meant that ) .

So, I've seen plenty of BS's give other BS's

1) Gentle 2 X 4's

2) Not so gentle 2 X 4's

3) 2 X 4 's that will knock you 3 feet backwards.

Lol. Wow my autocorrects are always super bizarre on this site.

My point was: Some BS are shitty people. Some WS are shitty people. Most people are somewhere in between (just like in real life!). Shitty people unfortunately tend to be LOUD and full of opinions. Try to tune them out when you can.

JpnHeartBreak - I had a friendship with this person so when I say I sometimes miss her, I believe that's being misinterpreted. In fact we were all "friends". Which I know makes it even worse. I don't miss anything about the affair or what lead up to it. I occasionally think of her and miss the joking around...I also miss her husband as well. We all got along well, have kids the same age, etc. My wife misses the friendship too and I take 100% of the blame for why we can no longer be friends with them. I just think when I have said I miss her, people assume I miss the affair. I do not. I was miserable during the affair. I simply miss the person (people) and wish I had a time machine to go back and do things differently. But I don't. I guess words get misunderstood - you can miss an ex but not want to be with them. Or miss a friend you've had a falling out over. The same is true here. I just occasionally miss the friendship the four of us had. It's sad and inexcusable that she and I screwed that up.

Hellfire - Maybe you're right, maybe I do want to be seen as a good person because deep down, I feel I am. But what I did tells a completely different story and reconciling the two is hard. I will take your advice and will not take comments so personally. As I've been instructed, this is a forum and you open yourself up to all people who are in different stages over a very difficult and sensitive subject. I have learned something today.

[This message edited by Rocket80 at 6:39 PM, March 28th (Wednesday)]

Dorothy123 is right that 2x4s can range from gentle setting to knockout mode. From my experience on SI, I do believe that they are genuinely not aimed to hurt, but to “shake” off the rose colored glasses/excuses/passiveness/denial/etc of the person that they are being directed to. I didn’t find SI until years later. I wish I had access to this advice back in my early days. I believe having some 2x4s thrown at me then would’ve helped me to avoid rugsweeping and having a 2nd DDay.

To recap...

There is A LOT of gray area in the subject of infidelity.

Wherever people start threads ( be it JFO, Reconciliation, Divorce, Wayward) they are soliciting opinions of the entire forum.

So chances are whatever you post, there will always be some people who will disagree with you, some may even strongly disagree.

Wherever people start threads, some people may give gentle advice, not so gentle advice or harsh or brutal advice.

It's just the subject of infidelity.

I went from page one to page four. So if I missed something and am repeating sorry.

If you miss AP then you're Foggy.

It's pretty much like missing a murderer.

A pedophile.

Are you revolted yet? And yeah. When you start to get it that's what you'll think of yourself. And yeah. It will scare you. You might run.

Plenty do.

But the other side of that equation is the idea you really can change. And make it. And it's worth it.but oh sweetie. If you need a safe space use the stop sign. Screw up your courage. This isn't for the light of heart.

Google the video by Henry Rollins. Liar. It's on YouTube. Watch it. Listen three times reshi. Watch it till it sinks in. That's you. That's AP.

It is. And yes there's a place for compassion. But compassion comes after you get it.

You don't get it yet.

Fog.

And yeah. Stay in wayward.

[This message edited by Maia at 8:43 PM, March 28th (Wednesday)]

Maia - You did miss a lot but thank you for the response anyway.

Rocket - perhaps some background might help. Do you have a timeline of your affair?

When and how did it begin? How long did it last?

Did either your BW or the OBS ever get the sense that something was up?

The first time after you were physical with the AP (did something happen before kissing?), how did it feel to be near your wife afterward?

We were all friends for a while. Both marriages began to suffer for reasons unrelated to the affair and she and I started off joking about how hard marriage is, etc. I felt so out of touch with my wife at the time (no excuse) and her husband was pretty volatile. Then we began confiding in each other. Texting a lot, then phone conversations - often for hours. It got to where I was excited to hear from her and vice versa. But during that time we had multiple conversations about ending it and tried several times to cut all contact. One of us would always cave. And NC was difficult as our spouses continued to want a relationship between the four of us. It got to where I didn't know what was worse, trying to just end it between us or having everyone find out. I didn't know what to do. I truly cared for her but I knew it was all wrong. During a visit everyone left but us and we ended up kissing. Only kissing. And it happened again. I won't lie, I enjoyed it but when my wife tried to kiss me later I felt sick to my stomach. I was irritable and so conflicted. The emotional affair continued with no further PA but suggestive texts, etc. and it took it's toll on me and my wife noticed things were off. As hard as it was, I ended the affair and my AP agreed as it was killing her too. We kept NC. We agreed to give it time and and hope feelings would go away and we could continue our friendship between the four of us. Well that was obviously crazy. I caved within a few weeks. I just couldn't take it anymore. I told my wife everything knowing it would ruin all the friendships but I had to do it. My AP was very pissed that I had told because eventually it meant she had to tell her husband or else he'd wonder why none of us could be friends. So, it all came out. It was ugly, terrifying and brutal. But a year later I do feel positive about my marriage. I feel with the help of IC and MC, we have made great strides. I still have more work to do but I know I love my wife and never want to hurt her or anyone else like this again.

And no, my wife did not suspect anything until the end but I think my AP's husband wondered. The total affair lasted about 4-5 months with several periods of "NC and trying to stop".

[This message edited by Rocket80 at 9:31 PM, March 28th (Wednesday)]

So the EA part of it started in around November of 2016. When did it become PA? And how long until it happened again? Did you two exchange "I love you"s, or make plan to leave your spouses?

How did you two wind up alone during that visit? Was it planned?

How did your wife react upon learning of your A? Does she have triggers now, and what are they?

I won't lie, I enjoyed it but when my wife tried to kiss me later I felt sick to my stomach.

Why, precisely? Can you pinpoint what caused you to feel sick to your stomach?

ETA: Also, you say that you and the OW talked about your marriages. What did you tell her about your wife? Did she say anything about your wife? What was her opinion of your wife? How did the OW respond after you first kissed her (or did she initiate)?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 9:39 PM, March 28th (Wednesday)]

Silverhopes, I don't mind answering your questions but would like to know your situation. Are you a BS or WS? Feels like you are asking as a BS trying to understand. In that case, I'm more than willing to try and help.

I am a madhatter.

In my situation, Mr Silver began our relationship still feeling and acting single with other women. It continued solidly until about 6 months after we got married, with occasional lapses in behavior and boundaries since then. I've lost track of how many women he's acted single with. He's never come clean about any of it, and the parts I do know he minimizes, because he claims nothing physical ever happened.

Four months into our relationship, he was becoming paranoid and becoming volatile with me. I thought he might break up with me soon (I was correct). A very abusive ex had been bothering me, and I selfishly decided to arrange to meet with him after Mr Silver broke up with me. I thought that I deserved to be abused again - also, I was afraid of being left alone with my thoughts and missing Mr Silver. I exchanged dirty emails with him over three days, and then the following day when I was supposed to meet him, I told him no. I ended it right there and told Mr Silver a week later (we got back together two days after I turned down the OM, and Mr Silver did not remember breaking up with me - he had been suffering an issues with his meds, and I didn't know ). I consider myself wayward because I wrote to the OM the day before Mr Silver broke up with me, and because even considering the OM was a betrayal of Mr Silver.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 9:49 PM, March 28th (Wednesday)]

The reason why I am asking these questions is because it helps to really look at the timeline. It helps to examine boundaries, how they shifted and disappeared, how you and the OW went from friendship to EA.

You've said that you wish her well. That doesn't quite seem like indifference to me. You have fond memories of her. Affection for her. You chose your wife, to return to her - but I'm wondering if you're minimizing the number of boundaries the OW crossed alongside you. Because your wife knew her, then this is what we would call a double betrayal. It wasn't solely you, her husband, who betrayed her - it was a friend who should have had her back too. I'm sure you're already questioning in MC why you weren't more loyal to your wife. It might be worth questioning why wasn't she, the OW, more loyal to your wife too?

Who initiated the EA, do you think? Whoever initiated it, why did the other not tell their spouse immediately about the crossed boundary? When did your loyalties transfer from your spouses to each other?

Were you in love with the OW?

Also, if I could have lived that moment over again, in my relationship where I chose to betray Mr Silver... If I could relive that moment, I would choose to sit in my loneliness. If I lacked the tools, then it would have been better to sit still until I could think clearly.

I'm trying to do that again now. We had another similar situation with Mr Silver's meds and his volatility in 2016. This time, I did it right. I isolated, rather than make poor choices, rather than betray Mr Silver again. And now that my own issues are worsening, I'm planning to do this again. Better to do that, than to betray him.

Silver - I'm not sure that given the situation, your lapse was entirely and affair. Seems like trouble started before you ever married him. But I'm not very educated in the serial cheater situation. I'm sorry you have experience all of this.

To answer your questions...EA probably started in October and PA happened in January and February. Again, no sex, but lots of "sexting" occurred. I know, vomit. But it happened.

There was some discussion beforehand of how we could find some alone time....to talk (kidding ourselves) but in the end it just happened...everyone (including kids) left and we stayed back to get things ready for dinner. Yes, during the EA we did exchange I love yous. I realize now that was just infatuation but at the time I felt I loved two people.

My wife knew something was wrong. As a man, it's difficult to admit but I cried like a baby when I told her. She chose to leave for the night and then I slept in the spare bedroom for about a month. She was devastated. I never knew what I was going to come home to and for awhile I feared it would be my bags packed on the front porch. She worked through so much with the help of our MC so I'm not certain of her triggers. I believe that is a good question to ask her.

I felt sick to my stomach because I'd never kissed another woman since meeting my wife and although I enjoyed it, I felt so horrible. I felt like I didn't deserve her. Felt like I would betray her further by allowing her to kiss me after what happened.

AP and I talked about our marriages. Some good thing, some bad things. Mostly , I felt ignored. Tried talking to my wife but didn't seem to help. Oddly though, my AP and I tried to help one another and gave suggestions to help. AP only got annoyed with my wife when she saw how little attention she gave me. But our comments of the other partner was always respectful. Never bashing anyone.

We literally fell into each other as soon as we were alone. Like it had been coming all along. No one initiated it and we kissed for a very long time yet nothing else happened.

She initiated it and it felt good. It felt nice to have someone interested in me again. I am ashamed to admit that but it's true. We have addressed the double betrayal on both sides. And continue to do so in MC. But I won't wish her ill will. It's not a matter of love, but a matter of peace. My wife and I agree that we both wish them well in their marriage. Anything else feels false. I do hope she's happy. It feels wrong to wish otherwise.

No, I was not in love with her. I was infatuated with her.

[This message edited by Rocket80 at 10:21 PM, March 28th (Wednesday)]

My wife and I agree that we both wish them well in their marriage.

So it's more wishing them well as a couple?

I do hope she's happy. It feels wrong to wish otherwise.

Why? Why do you wish her to be happy?

Why wish anything for her at all, good or bad?

It seems that you and your wife are in agreement on wishing them well as a couple. But I worry. How does your wife feel when she looks back on your betrayal? Does she feel that she's lost things as a result of your A, or like you and the OW tainted them? Does kissing you trigger her? Does kissing her trigger you?

Why did the OW not go to your wife, as her friend, and try to help bring you two closer together? She benefitted from you not feeling loyal to your wife. Has she apologized to your wife for betraying her?

I would ask all these questions of you too, but I gather this is what you're talking about in MC. I suppose, I'm trying understand your loyalty to the OW. Maybe I am trying to understand it from my H's perspective too... He holds no ill will towards any of the OWs. He remembers their times fondly.

To be fair, he doesn't really register that I don't feel special to him - or more specifically, the special feeling I *lost*, that was there before for him. I never will again, I don't think, after all the unfavorable comparisons and ways he treated me, and how easily his mind can turn to someone else. I love him greatly, and always will... I don't really believe in specialness anymore in general, not for relationships anyhow. He feels insulted when I say that I don't feel special to him - because I had his son, he feels that is proof enough that I'm special to him. But it doesn't feel like he's mine. Then again, maybe he isn't supposed to feel like mine. He only belongs to himself. Sorry for the t/j.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 10:45 PM, March 28th (Wednesday)]

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I hope, by examining the answers, it's helping you in some way. Are new things occurring to you as you look back? Are you seeing things in a different lens?

What does your wife need right now to heal? Aside from MC (which is awesome!), how are you two rebuilding?

Don't be sorry. I honestly appreciate the help. It helps to get it out in this type of forum. Yes, some will bash me to hell and back but you are being kind and simply getting me to think about things further.

I wish her to be happy because right or wrong, I care for her. You see, in my mind, not wishing her to be happy would be more of a red flag. Wishing her ill, would mean I still cared more than I should.

My wife seems to have recovered remarkably well. I can't explain it other than to say she is a well grounded person who is secure in herself. While there was a much needed "breakdown" last summer, she seems to have worked past her feelings and even encourages me to do the same. I hit the jack pot with her.

Kissing me used to be off limits because it was a trigger for her and yes, a trigger for me as well. But we got through that and are doing so much better.

It's odd but in these days women and men have friendships and in our case, I was closer to the woman than the man and vice versa. I think my AP considered me more of a friend than my wife. But yes, she did apologize...profusely. And I did the same with her husband.

And while your husband says many of his OW were special to him, I cannot quite understand. I have one. She is not special but she deserves no ill will from me.

I don't know your husband but it sounds like he needs to try more to make you feel special to him. It's not fair for you to carry that all by yourself. I truly wish you well. Thank you for helping me work through some of this by writing it out. Feel free to reach out to me anytime.