SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It's got nothing to do with you though

I think that's always the case, it's nothing about the Spouse or even the AP that makes the affair happen. But, I will say RIO - this is something it often sounds like you don't grasp either. If someone said to you "It had nothing to do with you" I would almost expect a diatribe as to why in your mind it does. I just wanted to point that out to you...it really didn't have anything to do with you...or the AP. Or who was better. It's like The post from yesterday, it was about her being better in that circus mirror.

If someone said to you "It had nothing to do with you" I would almost expect a diatribe as to why in your mind it does. I just wanted to point that out to you...it really didn't have anything to do with you...or the AP. Or who was better. It's like The post from yesterday, it was about her being better in that circus mirror.

That's a fair point, but I'd stand by my statement that "great sex" in an A for at least some men has got nothing to do with the AP, just the "new" that makes it good/great.

I'll hold the diatribe, but I think a lot of it has to do with the type of A. My W had an exit A. She was "exiting" me. That's got something, in fact, a LOT to do with me. And exit A's are much more common for females than men, so I think you'll wind up with more BH's with this issue where it's more about them than other types of A's.

Then there's the other extreme, the "cake eater" who's just out for more. That person, no, I think it's got nothing at all to do with their spouse. They just want more. It's entirely them though, they might already "have it all" and just want "all + 1". This is the 2nd most common A type I see in my friends. And then there's the blended one, probably the "most common" I see. It's still a "more" A, but it happens because of some perceived (or real) issue in the M. In all cases I've seen in person, it's the typical "Love the wife, but she went off sex" (this is NOT me being sexist, I know women have this problem too, but I've only had honest 1-1 conversations with men about A's, so I simply can't speak to the female perspective here). So it's a blend of your standard "cake eater" with some resentment and anger towards the spouse for "forcing them" to eat cake. Yeah, my mind spins as well just saying that, but, that's by far the most common thing I hear from men. Everything was great, time went on, sex decreased, had kids, sex fell off a cliff, love my wife, need to get penis wet. Standard male sob story (and I have NO idea if this is true or not, it may be them making themselves out to be a Christ figure who's just so long suffering, but, this is what they say).

@cocoplus5nuts Yep!

I'll hold the diatribe, but I think a lot of it has to do with the type of A. My W had an exit A. She was "exiting" me. That's got something, in fact, a LOT to do with me. And exit A's are much more common for females than men, so I think you'll wind up with more BH's with this issue where it's more about them than other types of A's.

I hear you on that, and it hits me in the heart because I think that my affair was also an exit affair. But, I still contend it had nothing at all to do with my husband.

It had to do with my inability to set boundaries, to communicate. It had to do with instead of sitting him down and talking about this with him - I escaped through the A. I formed these expectations of him without telling him. I formed these expectations on myself and blamed him.

I think exit affairs among women are very common. But, I think often the reason they happen is we are not ready to say "I want a divorce" so we do all the other stuff instead. Some of us end up realizing we were an idiot, others end up really exiting.

But, honestly - H was never the reason for my affair. My perception or outlook were the reasons for my affair. I could honestly have done anything else than that. So, in that way, you can really really believe that it had nothing to do with you, and everything to do with her. I sometimes think you would rather it be you or the AP and not about her at all. Like it might make it easier to continue to love her?

I think that because I see my husband still struggle with that. But, the bottom line was I was unhappy. But other people don't make us happy, we have to be happy on our own. So, I blamed my unhappiness on anything but me...and I didn't like my life and circumstance, I was in a bad emotional state with the new empty nest, and I wanted to escape. But, when I look at my husband today without that skewed mindset I really can't believe I would have ever wanted to actually leave him? It's unfathomable to me.

Twisted:

My WW tried this, and I was appreciative, it's what I think I wanted, but in the end it seemed contrived and insincere. This was not what her "normal" attitude was, toward me at least. She was trying to appease me sexually to prevent me from divorce, not out of passion or love, but self preservation. At least that was what was going on in my head. I suppose it's a no-win situation in that regard.

I am 100% right there with you on this..this is exactly how I feel now..

I feel we have an absolute hard time with distinguishing what real or fake anymore with our WW..what we believed we had was all a lie and now we have ended up with someone who let’s be honest had we known the could act the way they did we would have run away from.

[This message edited by Texashunter41 at 3:11 PM, March 21st (Thursday)]

I sometimes think you would rather it be you or the AP and not about her at all. Like it might make it easier to continue to love her?

Your right, and I'd never really thought of it that way before. But it's not "continue to love her" that's the problem, it's more "what can I fix". I can fix me. I can "fix" the AP (and boy, did I ever fix him, he won't be back). But her? I've got nothing. So if it's me, I know what to do. If it's him, I know what to do. If it's her?? I've got no idea what to do. And I hate the feeling of not knowing how to work to repair something, sitting by on my hands waiting for.. What? I don't know. It's even worse than "I don't know how to fix it" it's "I don't even know how to tell if it's broken or not". And that's an awful feeling, at least it is for me.

Your right, and I'd never really thought of it that way before. But it's not "continue to love her" that's the problem, it's more "what can I fix". I can fix me. I can "fix" the AP (and boy, did I ever fix him, he won't be back). But her? I've got nothing. So if it's me, I know what to do. If it's him, I know what to do. If it's her?? I've got no idea what to do. And I hate the feeling of not knowing how to work to repair something, sitting by on my hands waiting for.. What? I don't know. It's even worse than "I don't know how to fix it" it's "I don't even know how to tell if it's broken or not". And that's an awful feeling, at least it is for me.

I don't have the answer, but I will send you my bill for getting this far...

I get it. Men are fixers by nature. And, honestly how do you fix a trust that has been shattered in a million pieces?

I know you don't want to hear this but it continues to seem like there is a lack of communication. I know that for a long time the BS doesn't really know what to believe about what a WS says. To me, and I hope like hell I am right about this, but it's about consistency. Seeing that she's thought it through, that her ability to discuss it has evolved, that she can put into words where it all went wrong and how she has worked/is working on it.

Do you continue to communicate about it? I don't remember how far out you are, I know it used to say in your tag line. I know you joined just months before me. We still discuss things in a pretty fluid way. It's not all the time, but regularly. He says he's watched my evolution. I am not saying he trusts me, or will ever trust me blindly again. But, if you don't continue to share the thoughts between you, there is no way to even have any perspective of what is fixed, what is not fixed. Or maybe I read you wrong and it's just something that hasn't clicked into place yet. Everyone is on different timelines, and she had a LTA, so there is more there to deal with.

I know it is counter-intuitive to say it happens with communication, when you have been lied to for about a year. But, if you aren't hearing what's happening in her inner world, then I don't know how you can begin to gauge it.

onthefence:

I just went all-in and bought all kinds of toys, pulled-out the lingerie, wore red spiked heals, sexted him with pics, and had a couple of shots ready for when he came home (he works late and kids were in bed). I repeated this effort each night, with some new experience, new outfit, dominated him, whatever sounded like fun in my mind.

Would you have done these things as a WW, instead of a BW? It seems the dynamics would change drastically. My WW tried this, and I was appreciative, it's what I think I wanted, but in the end it seemed contrived and insincere. This was not what her "normal" attitude was, toward me at least. She was trying to appease me sexually to prevent me from divorce, not out of passion or love, but self preservation. At least that was what was going on in my head. I suppose it's a no-win situation in that regard.

It took me awhile to think about an answer because I had to try to get myself to think wayward, I had to see myself in that position and wonder what I would do with a stranger--because that's who this person would be. And, after pondering it, no, I don't think so at all. It took me a long time to open up the "freak" in me to my husband and then I wouldn't push it because his response made me feel unappreciated and like I was putting in all of the effort. I was starting to feel like I was just a piece of meat, something to mount and get off of.

So, when you say this:

She was trying to appease me sexually to prevent me from divorce, not out of passion or love, but self preservation. At least that was what was going on in my head. I suppose it's a no-win situation in that regard.

I can relate. WH goes down on me every single time now, won't stop anything until I orgasm. The time and attention I get in bed now is unbelievable. He's now purchased all kinds of kinky toys, one that I had kept a secret for 4 years but let it out when I was too drunk to even know that I said it! WH told me the next day about our conversation and I couldn't believe I actually told him.

So, why is he doing it now and not then? Is this just to save himself, save our marriage? Why wouldn't he do these things before? And then, there is everything that he is doing outside of the bedroom as well--other than the trauma that I have endured, which is huge and undeniable, everything else about my day is so much more relaxing and I have so much time to myself to do whatever I want now. WH is picking up so many chores and responsibilities, and apparently, he feels good about it. But why NOW and NOT before???

And to just add further pain, I don't want vanilla sex anymore. So no romantic encounters. I won't do a quickie either. I refuse to be used. I feel like the only way I can enjoy sex with him now is if there is some level of kink involved.

Rideitout

I can't see how it could be anything but spectacular, because, that's how it would be for me. Not because the AP was so awesome, just because the AP was someone new.

I can see this at some level with my WH. After awhile, he was bored and just thought he would still get himself some until she would leave. POSOW was a loose canon as exhibited during their intermittent break-ups so he was waiting for her to finally pull the plug. Such a stupid man to think she just wanted him for sex...

Frankly, I WANT HER to want to control the outcome.

I don't understand the passivity of some people in this topic; is there anything more important to you? If not, why on earth wouldn't you want to try to control the outcome to wind up in a good place for you and your spouse.

I prefer "Putting in the work and effort to do everything I can to build a better marriage and heal myself, my BS and our relationship". That's not controlling, that's what a rational person does when they want something (the M) that requires effort (R).

YES! I agree.

I formed these expectations of him without telling him. I formed these expectations on myself and blamed him.

WH said this is exactly what he did. He had unmet, unrealistic, expectations. He became an angry and controlling shithead.

I feel we have an absolute hard time with distinguishing what real or fake anymore with our WW

This is so true. But, I do believe that at least in my case, WH is 100% remorseful. Problem is, I resent him now for blowing up my world, my hopes, my dreams for some POS he gave two shits about.

Since finding out about my WS affair, seeing what he wrote to her, finding the dicpics, and discovering they would bunk up in the car in parks local to their work, as often as possible. I can categorically say I don't feel there is anything special about our sex life anymore. He is someone who seems to have the same script for whoever he is with. We are very sexually active, historical bonding helped me get over the thought of him being with another woman. I also started fantasising about a man at work, again to help me get past the mind movies, in the early days. Now I just take what I want from our sex life. There is nothing special about 'us' and our coupling. My WH made sure of that.

I guess when I said controlling the outcome I meant that he would feel like I was manipulating him to get him to stay, which is what you suspect in your post - he would think why now?

I now understand it just means be authentic but in those early days after dday I was incapable of that.

Just catching up here. BFTG, great posts. I should however clarify what you wrote in the addendum.

Our sex life was pretty good prior too, and even during.

It wasn’t after. The part I felt wasn’t authentic was her trying to duplicate with me, the acts she had done with him. I did feel that she was authentic in how she viewed me sexually after, She wanted to get back to where we had been, which she said is what she really craved. Before lots of touching and foreplay, after not so much. That kind of sex, however no longer felt authentic to me. My authentic changed more than hers. It was no longer authentic for example for me to do oral on her after I found out I had performed it hours after she had been with him. I tried it once and just couldn’t do it. This was a shame as it was a staple in our sex life.h

You are right, it was the whole experience that never let me look at her the same.

I am still wondering, and maybe I missed it, how when they put these new skills on the table that they didn’t do with you, how it makes you feel. She had lots of skills she learned prior to me. No problem with that. It’s just this was a whole different ball game

but that she valued what he was giving her enough to invest her time and energy and resources into giving him sexual pleasure.

Just catching up as well, and butforthegrace, your post is a home run. This part speaks to me especially as the part that hurts the most. To expand that thought a little, knowing that the 'value that he was giving' was lies and fake praise/adoration, it adds to the hurt that it was a priceless gift that was tossed in the trash for nothing. The fallout from it is that what was once a special sacred event is now just fucking for me. I hate that part, but it is what it is.

I also appreciate hikingout posting in this thread as it definitely gives me insight into my fWW's mind. I appreciate the encouragement to RIO to communicate with his wife too...my wife and I NEVER spoke about sex before d-day. Never. We just did it. It has been a pretty steady diet of duty sex, and I knew that the affair sex was pretty pathetic and vanilla, rushed and even awkward. After the dust settled from the devastation of d-day, what I thought was once taboo to discuss was now on the table to talk about. All of it. What do you like? What do you want to try that has never been done before? How frequent is the optimal frequency? Do we need some new toys? Should I install a trapeze? The answers to lots of these questions surprised me, and new things have been put into the rotation that were never done or talked about before...

The point is, I think it is super healthy to talk through all of this, and wish it didn't have to be AFTER the revelation of multiple affairs and a double life. Like RIO has said, the one thing that should be reserved exclusively for our spouse, and has been and should be done repeatedly, but we don't talk about it? Definitely start up the conversation. We started just by taking inventory of what we were doing, and then it grew from there.

I guess when I said controlling the outcome I meant that he would feel like I was manipulating him to get him to stay, which is what you suspect in your post - he would think why now?

The line between "manipulating him to stay" and "convincing him to stay" is so razor hair thin I'm not sure there's really a line at all. "But I love you so much, please don't leave".. Manipulation or convincing? "I'll never do it again, I'm so sorry". Manipulation or convincing? I ask that question honestly, because, frankly, all of it feels like manipulation AND "honestly trying to convince him/her to stay" at the same time.

I'm just not sure there's a distinction that can be drawn here with any degree of clarity. And, if you're going to worry about manipulating someone, I'd suggest "don't cry, don't beg, don't plead" as the steps to take to avoid manipulating someone, not "don't go all out in the bedroom". Because if I'm going to be manipulated, I've very much like that to come with some sweaty sheets vs a lot of Kleenex and tears!

Lol - well I found the line - and that was just to be me and try what felt right, do what I do from the heart because I learned I couldn’t control how he saw me so not to even worry about it. When I was talking about it earlier I was talking about early days after dday. That time is a bit of a blur to me now because everything I was thinking was so fucked up I can’t even tell you. But once I realized I couldn’t comtrol the outcome, but I could do what was in my heart. And that was freeing and looking back I think it was right.

I think the distinction between "manipulating" and "convincing" is this:

you try to "convince" a person to do a thing because you want the person to do that thing.

you "manipulate" a person to do a thing because you have some ulterior motive, a desire for some consequence that will occur when the person does that thing.

I think manipulation is when you are trying to trick someone into getting your way. You are not being authentic in doing so and it may or may not be in their best interests.

Convincing someone is you try and get someone to do something you want them to do but you may give them reasons that benefit them or persuade them. You can also convince people with actions. Both may or may not be authentic.

I don’t think you should convince or manipulate people to stay with you and reconcile. I think you should instead become a person they can consider reconciling with if you can be that person authentically. You have to want it for yourself because in the end the bs will choose what is best for them.

That’s not to say that you don’t share with them why you want them in your life or genuinely do things that show them you love them.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:42 PM, March 21st (Thursday)]

This thread is gold. Free therapy!

The line between "manipulating him to stay" and "convincing him to stay" is so razor hair thin I'm not sure there's really a line at all. "But I love you so much, please don't leave".. Manipulation or convincing? "I'll never do it again, I'm so sorry". Manipulation or convincing? I ask that question honestly, because, frankly, all of it feels like manipulation AND "honestly trying to convince him/her to stay" at the same time.

Wow. So glad this topic came up, sincerely.

Agree wholeheartedly with HikingOut's definitions of Manipulation and Convincing. Boiled down to the bare bones, I say manipulation is for an ulterior motive. Convincing is trying to get them to see your side. Both are self-serving, but for different reasons.

For example:

Manipulation

Words: "I'll never do it again, I'm so sorry"

Inner Monologue: "This should do the trick! Now s/he'll believe me and get off my back and finally just get over it"

Convincing

Words: "I'll never do it again, I'm so sorry"

Inner Monologue: "I really mean it. I don't know how to express how sorry I am, I really hope s/he hears this and understands how terrible I feel for hurting them."

I'm just not sure there's a distinction that can be drawn here with any degree of clarity.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with this RIO. The reason you can never draw a 100% clear cut distinction is because no matter which it is, manipulation or convincing, the person is saying the EXACT. SAME. WORDS.

My WXH could say to me "No HHADL, I have no idea where your underwear went, would you like me to help you look for it?" And after hearing those words, in my mind there was just as much of a possibility that I would find it stuck to the inside of my pant leg after doing laundry, as there was that it was knotted up and shoved in the hole in his side of the mattress. It's frightening!

Even scarier, you cannot climb into their brain and BE them, you can't actually hear their inner monologue, so you cannot ever know the intent behind their words for a fact. You can ask them to talk and communicate with you. But the words mean nothing unless you have some sort of sense of the authenticity/intent behind them. And at that point you have to trust your gut.

Obviously if you follow the adage of trusting what they do, not what they say, you'll get a little more clarity. But you'll still never actually know for sure.

So if it's me, I know what to do. If it's him, I know what to do. If it's her?? I've got no idea what to do. And I hate the feeling of not knowing how to work to repair something, sitting by on my hands waiting for.. What? I don't know. It's even worse than "I don't know how to fix it" it's "I don't even know how to tell if it's broken or not". And that's an awful feeling, at least it is for me.

THIS! RIO, you and I have had opposite viewpoints on several threads. But on this, we might as well be the same damn person because I could have written that word for word.

It's been eye opening to see my control issues come into razor sharp focus during all of this.

That is the absolute scariest part of being this vulnerable with another human being. You have absolutely no control. You will never actually know if the person lying in bed next to you is the love of your life who will never do you any wrong, or the selfish asshole who will rip your heart out, smash it with a hammer, wrap it with some scotch tape then try to put it back in again and pretend like it's good as new.

Is the person I'm lying next to my new and improved life partner, or an ax murderer?

Like HikingOut said, consistency should show you over time. If I wake up, and I'm NOT chopped up into tiny little bits, then Not An Ax Murderer: 1 point/Ax Murderer: 0. And every successive day after that will keep adding points to the Not An Ax Murderer column. Until the point where there have been so many days in a row that I hopefully start to trust that this person is in fact NOT an ax murderer.

And still, the craziest part of it is that I will never truly KNOW with any absolute certainty. There could be 30 more years worth of points in the Not An Ax Murderer Column, and then one morning, our bedroom looks like a scene from Law & Order, and there's a point over in the other column.

I can stay up at night, staring at the ceiling, thinking of ways to try to control the potential ax murderer. "Where might he have hidden the ax? Is it somewhere I could find it and get rid of it? Can I throw an ax in the regular trash can, or do I have to take it to some special waste facility? Oh damn, it's probably too heavy for me to carry anyway. Should I just get some sort of ax-proof body armor to wear to bed? No, I'd better spend a few hours hunting for that ax. Maybe one of those beach combing metal detector thingies will help. Hmmmm, this lump on his side of the bed certainly feels ax-like..."

Or I can tell my anxiety to get the hell out and fall asleep knowing that I can trust nothing but my gut. Hoping that my gut is trustworthy enough to steer me in the right direction so I will wake up alive the next morning. While also hoping that if he is in fact an ax murderer that the ax is sharp enough that death is swift and painless.

I read a thread once about a guy who always wanted his wife to open up more sexually. Try new things, anal, oral to finish, etc. She wouldn't do it. Until she had the A. Lots of anal, finishing on her face, etc. Then the A ends, and she's back to the same old vanilla routine with her husband, ashamed of the way she acted in the A. She won't do any of these things with her husband because it reminds her of "what a slut she was." This BH is miserable now. That would definitely be the final straw for me. Immediate Divorce. Every single time we had vanilla missionary sex would just be another knife in my back. Her body, her choice... I get that. But to be further humiliated like that is my choice... and I would choose to remove myself.

Agreed.

IMO, it all comes down to desire and motivation. When people really want something, they do whatever it takes to get it.

What do we hear from most of the WW as to why they cheated. That they gave sex in order to get feelings and attention in return. They really wanted something, and did what it took to get it.

Now take this same dynamic and apply it to R.

Everybody has choices in life. It's all a risk vs reward equation. It was worth the risk of destroying the marriage and losing the BS for the reward. The equation works both ways.

Will the WS put the same level of effort and desire to save the marriage that they did to destroy it?

If the BS requests, and is subsequently denied, something freely given to the AP, then its choice time.

No one forced them to give it up to the AP. It was a decision made of their own free will. And the BS also has free will

If the WS says “No, that was for AP, not you.” So be it.

At that point it up to the BS to decide what they will and will not accept.

It’s a big world. There are plenty of people just as attractive that will treat you much better than your WS. You wouldn’t know it from reading on this forum, but there are many women who enjoy being sexually adventurous and monogamous at the same time.

The BH can always exercise the option to go and be with one of these women.

WWTL, I had forgotten that "post-A-sex oral" element. Your WW showed you a lot of contempt during her A. We see some threads where the WS compartmentalizes the A far away from the marriage, like a fantasy world they escape to. Yours was like the opposite, like a poison she was intentionally infusing into your life and home as much as she could, as if she wanted to wipe its fluids and its stench right in your face. We name some types of A's: "exit A", or "revenge A". I've often privately thought of yours as a "fuck you" A. Did you ever talk to her about that specific aspect of it? I'm curious to know what she said. Was she really able in her mind to not think about the fact that letting you go down on her just hours after illicit unprotected sex with another man would be profoundly disgusting and upsetting to you if you found out? Or sitting in your home with him, redolent with his sex, trying to talk you into investing family money into his bullshit? She was either very, very stupid, or very very cunning and wicked. It seems like there was no middle ground.

You are right, it was the whole experience that never let me look at her the same.

I've often read here that, for R to work, the M after the A must be re-invented. I don't think it is reasonable to expect a BS to ever look at a WS the same as before the A.

However, some couples R, which means the BS is able at some point to look at the WS with love and desire, and, more important, to look at the WS and see a person looking back with authentic, genuine love and desire, love and desire that is real enough to enable the BS to believe as a matter of the heart.

I have always been curious about how that emotional process played out in your marriage, versus RIO. As you note, if you marry someone with experience, you benefit from the sex skills they have learned along the way. I once dated somebody casually, in an expressly non-exclusive way. At first she wouldn't swallow, but then she started swallowing because she tried it with another guy and liked it. I was like "this is frickin' awesome, thanks dude."

But in marriage you forsake all others. So what does a BS do if a WS comes back from an A with a bunch of new sex skills, learned/tried during the A.

More specifically, I've always been curious about how the communication went between RIO and his WW, on the one hand, and WWTL and his wife, on the other, about this. Clearly RIO has found some path to continuing with R under this circumstance, whereas you could not. Did you talk about this with your WW? "You only want anal because you're trying to make it up to me", or something along those lines. Did she try to convince you otherwise: "I've always wanted anal, but was afraid to tell you because I was shy", or something else? Clearly, your heart could not feel the truth in needed to feel in order to continue with R.

At what point did you realize you couldn't continue to try R? Was there a point of epiphany? What catalyzed it in your heart?

Or I can tell my anxiety to get the hell out and fall asleep knowing that I can trust nothing but my gut. Hoping that my gut is trustworthy enough to steer me in the right direction so I will wake up alive the next morning. While also hoping that if he is in fact an ax murderer that the ax is sharp enough that death is swift and painless.

I love this analogy because, much like my internal conflict, the price for "getting it wrong" is so high (cut up into little pieces) AND the payoff for "getting it right" is equally high (stay married to a loving, non-ax murdering man/woman). But the complication in an A is, as I'm sure you probably thought yourself, you KNOW the person laying next to you is an ax murder. You caught them sharpening the ax and taking test swings at your side of the bed. In fact, they actually hit you and gravely injured as you slept at least one time (D-day) and sometimes more (for those who've had multiple d-days). So it's a bit more difficult, you know this person has an "ax fetish", you know they keep it sharpened up and under the bed, and they've actually tried to chop you up with an ax at least once. So now, to sleep soundly, you need overwhelming proof that this person is, in fact, not going to try to chop you up while you count sheep.

IMO, it all comes down to desire and motivation. When people really want something, they do whatever it takes to get it.

What do we hear from most of the WW as to why they cheated. That they gave sex in order to get feelings and attention in return. They really wanted something, and did what it took to get it.

And that's where we can loop this succinct gem into the conversation. Because if your husband, who's already taken a swing at you with an ax is still sleeping with that ax in his hand, well.. You have every reason to be concerned. If, however, he does "whatever it takes" (throws the ax away, handcuffs himself to the bed to sleep, whatever) you will start to build some trust that this guy is a changed individual. You can sleep with some level of security and comfort because you can see, even though they tried to chop you up once, that's not who they are today and they are doing "whatever it takes" to show you they've changed.

And, stepping away from the ax for a moment, I think the "whatever it takes" thing is really what I, and lots of other BS's want to see. No, I don't want my wife to cut off her hand for me. Yes, I do want to see her put MORE effort into our relationship than she put into the A. A's are a ton of "work". You have to spend countless hours looking for an AP. Then you have to groom one another. Then you have to find time. Then you have to find a place to meet. Then you have to get condoms (or not), hotels (or parking spots), put on your good underwear, shave, put on your perfume/cologne, pick out your sexy clothes.. Then you have to actually go and have sex. Then you have to clean up from that sex and go back home, act like everything is fine until you sneak off to the bathroom to make sure your AP made it home OK.

Tons of work and effort required, FAR more effort than having sex with your spouse, or sending your spouse a love letter/flowers or finding them a good gift. Or telling them how special they are to you.

Now, when you turn around after d-day and your spouse is requesting "similar treatment", be that sexual, emotional, financial or anything else you do some mental calculus, how much effort will that thing be (and whatever this number is, it is, by rule, LOWER than the effort was to do that same thing for the AP because you don't need to steal time, find a place, sneak around, etc) and how much pleasure will I get or bring to my partner doing that thing?

So, when you apply that to the same sexual act and wind up at two different conclusions (yes, I'd love to go down on my AP, but no, I will not go down on my W) there's something not right somewhere in the equation. Because the effort to do "kinky things" with your spouse is ALWAYS lower than the effort to do that same kinky thing (or, in fact, even the effort to just have an A, IMHO) with the AP. It's a lot easier to have anal sex at home, with lube, time and a loving partner you trust than it is to "stick it in dry" in the backseat of a car in a grocery store parking lot with some guy you started "dating" a week ago. And yet this happens, quite often; if you look at it in the equation I just proposed, A's often go from effort level 0 to effort level 1000 (sex that would make a porn star blush, prose that would make Shakespeare jealous, gifts that rival the Hope diamond, etc) in the blink of an eye.

They did what was required to get the feelings. I get it, but "getting those feelings" required dramatically more effort, engagement, planning and just summarizing, "work" than doing any of those things would require in the marriage. So, what does that tell you? One of two things, either those feelings were so much better, so much more "worth it" that it wasn't hard to put in the "extra work". Or, you (BS) cannot create those same feelings, so, while the feelings are "worth it" for the work, no matter how much "work" they put in with you, they're not going to feel as good as they did with the AP, so.. No backseat anal for you, because you simply cannot make me feel as good as the AP did, ergo, you are not worth it.

Will the WS put the same level of effort and desire to save the marriage that they did to destroy it?

I think the answer is usually "no, they will not" and the reason is what I stated above, "the marriage is not worth as much as the A was". I'm pretty convinced that is my W put the "same effort" into our R that she did the A, there's no way I'd ever consider D. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I think R statistics would be much different if most WS's put the same effort into R that they did the A.

I hate doing this to her, hopefully she won't mind, but I often look at a poster like Hikingout and think to myself, "what are the chances that she make it in R". Because she's here, day after day, working her ass off to find her inner truth. I'm sure, like me, she spends hours a day working on it, thinking about it, and talking through her feelings and inner monologue. She's put 100's of X more time into her R than she put into her A. So long as the efforts that she talks about here are applied to her M, I'd give you 10-1 odds that she and her husband stay married and find happiness over the long term. Because she (and other posters, this isn't an inclusive list, is just that she and I often find ourselves debating on various topics) has put in so much MORE effort into R than she did the A. And, as a BS, that's what I want to see from my W. More work/time/effort and yes, "kinky sex" than she spent doing those things with her AP. Does her husband ask himself "am I worth it, am I worth more to Hiking than the AP"? I'm sure he does. To which she can point to 1000's of posts showing him how hard and how much she's willing to do to get better and heal their relationship.

And there are no guarantees, the best poster in the world, the hardest working WS on this site, they could still wind up D'ed. But, and this is the absolute most important thing, if they do, at least they won't look back and think "I wound up divorced because I didn't try/work at it". But that maniacal focus on "fixing it" is what I think a lot of us, certainly me, want to see from my WS. Work harder for me than you did the AP, and work in the areas that matter to me; that's how you show me that I'm "plan A".