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BFTG, don’t want to T/J this more than I have. I will answer you via pm if you like. But you are right with most of what you said.

I did spend quite a bit of time with her last night at a mutual friends 60th birthday party. Things are not good with her. As much as I am unhappy in the spot she put us in, it pales to what a shit show her life is. All for a cheap thrill.

@WorstClub Ever

I think this father's advice, no matter how well-meaning, and no matter how accurately it reflects how men have been socialized to think about women, is extremely damaging. Extremely. For women, absolutely, but for men too, in the end.

Yes, thanks for stating it this way. Your whole post is exactly what I meant and how I feel.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 1:57 PM, March 23rd (Saturday)]

SMS, I disagree with you, pretty much 180 degrees. I realize you have your own individual history and such, but the notion of giving a spouse plenty of good sexual attention in the privacy of the marital bedroom is good advice for both spouse. The crass vernacular might not be pleasing to your ear, but the concept is 100% good advice for a healthy marriage.

I often go back to the simple marriage advice given by the 1970's country music star Charlie Pride, possibly the best advice for husbands, ever: "Kiss an angel good mornin', and love 'er lahk the devil when ya git back hoooooome."

Well, than you are disagreeing with someone you think is SMS, BFTG.

My H and I did the inauthentic, "this is what I do to be seen as a good spouse" dance through 20 years of dysfunctional, disconnected M. We did not realize we were dysfynctional and disconnected just as many married people do not.

Because truly intimate, fulfilling partnerships are not comprised of two people who are dancing around to perform a complex of shifting roles for another, in the hopes of gaining affection and approval as a reward. No. Real intimacy, and real fulfillment in M, comes in the authentic, vulnerable connections that arise between two, whole individuals, who are able to love themselves, and one another, as such.

Now we live by ^^^^ this 100%--after many hard-working years in IC. Not much MC, mostly IC for both of us as we needed to learn how to meet our own needs instead of thinking that performing to perfection should get our needs met. It didn't. Neither of us had our needs met.

We believed in the barter system of marriage, but that created the inauthentic performance mentality, the sucking it up until my turn comes around. We were 33% blah, 33% unhappily performing, and 33% satisfied. And those are generous estimates.

This is why I think a BS heals a BS. Pretend you survived any other trauma (i.e. crime, accident) and you need to work on, address, and confront your own pain and needs. This mindset will lead you to a path of autonomy and personal happiness. At that point, each spouse looks at the other to see where he/she is at and determine if you can be happy together again, as these new and improved people.

^^^^❤️ ^^^^ Our marriage pre d-day and after.

Very well said, WCE.

I am not any of those 3 things listed. I don't cook. I am not a whore in the sack. I am certainly not a lady. If a man wants that, I am not the one for him. I am not going to pretend to be any of those things to get a man, either. This is me. Take it or leave it. I'll be good.

Hiking, I am with you on the physical attraction thing. I've known men and women who were very physically attractive...until they opened their mouths. After that, no matter how good they looked, they were extremely unattractive.

RIO, yes, physical attraction is the first thing that gets one's attention (most of the time). However, there has to be more for a relationship to last long term, imo.

So I think this father's advice, no matter how well-meaning, and no matter how accurately it reflects how men have been socialized to think about women, is extremely damaging. Extremely. For women, absolutely, but for men too, in the end.

Because truly intimate, fulfilling partnerships are not comprised of two people who are dancing around to perform a complex of shifting roles for another, in the hopes of gaining affection and approval as a reward. No. Real intimacy, and real fulfillment in M, comes in the authentic, vulnerable connections that arise between two, whole individuals, who are able to love themselves, and one another, as such.

I agree. And OwningItNow's reflection of her M is similar to mine. As I stated in an earlier post, in hindsight, I realized that all of the effort I was putting into being a sex goddess for my WH didn't get me anything else out of our relationship except me resenting him. It became duty sex. I also look back and feel like he became a sex addict after that...it's really hard to explain but there were times I really felt USED and this was pre-A. I couldn't get him to understand that I also needed romance and for him to pick up slack around the house. It was very typical selfish behavior.

At one point, I asked him for candles and music and a romantic night. Now, knowing that this was going to end in a night of lovemaking, wouldn't you make the effort to do so? Guess what happened? He put a candle app on his iPhone and that was it...

We fulfill all our WH's wants, but he wants more.

And this where I was left gasping for air. I was giving, giving, giving, while being gaslighted about how the derailment of our marriage was my fault. It was always what I was or wasn't doing. I was exhausted! And then I was done. I was tired of trying to earn his time, respect, reciprocation....

I asked my WH in the midst of an argument--did your father EVER talk to you about how to treat your wife? How about how to be there for your wife when she needs you most? How about putting her first? Anything??? He looked at me dumbfounded and told me no, not at all.

Well, my parents, albeit not a perfect relationship but still loving, taught me all kinds of things related to how to treat other people, and not just your spouse, but everyone. I remember my sister dating someone in the military and he went off to boot camp. My mom and dad had a long talk with my sister and told her that it would never be acceptable for her to write him a "Dear John" letter. If she decided to break it off, she had to wait until he returned home and speak to him in person. This was a huge lesson to me, in lots of ways, and it didn't even involve me...

So, trying to round this back to the advice given to a daughter about what a man wants is severely one-sided, it's only from the husband's point of view. How about giving advice to your daughter about her finding out what she stands for, figuring out what she will tolerate, and how she should receive just as much from her husband as she invests in him. And, when it comes to a son, how about teaching him that being a good husband is exponentially more than being a provider, not drinking, being nice...

And re-reading that paragraph seems like I am projecting more of the woman's point of view and missing the man's, but I really don't mean it that way, I promise. I feel like most parents do their children an injustice because no one teaches these values to their children, girls and boys. We do not teach our kids how to be emotionally invested, how those little white lies deteriorate your relationships and yourself, how to be vulnerable, how to be sensitive, how to take care of someone else. A marriage should be a competition between a husband and wife, but not about how much you are getting out of it, rather how much more you do for the other person.

onthefence, ^^^ yep.

One of the bizarre benefits to my acting out against my H with a RA is that it made us both look at our own role. I am not sure I would have done as much work on me if I had not f@cked up my morals and principles like I did. So being MHs took away any moral high ground over here. That allowed us to see BOTH our roles in his cheating (why did I continually allow his selfishness???) and BOTH our roles in mine (why did he not value my needs or even see me as a person?).

Is it wrong if I say, "Thank god we are madhatters"? Because we are creating a marriage I did not realize was possible since neither of us are too proud to see our faults. It has been a total break down and rebuild.

For the non-madhatters, maybe consider these sexual and relationship issues and the messages they have been sending? Maybe it's time to rewrite attitudes?

Even the morally superior can use self-reflection and growth. It never hurts.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:13 PM, March 23rd (Saturday)]

Hahaha! All of a sudden, I remembered a "Dr. Phil" episode from years and years ago. A wife charged her husband for all sex acts. They had a menu/ list and price tag $$$$. His wife was acting like a whore in the bedroom. The husband wasn't very happy. Go figure.

Even the morally superior can use self-reflection and growth. It never hurts.

Amen. Lots and lots of self-reflection here. I try to be a bad-ass and have had a LOT of anger and rage towards WH. I really tried so hard during our entire marriage and this is the result.

But I wasn't perfect either. I should not have been too proud to realize the really bad place we were in. I know that sounds contradictory to my previous posts, but at the time, I ignored the reality. We were both pretending our way through a lot of days, going through the motions, and to outsiders, we were solid. I never felt that anything was so detrimental that a little time wouldn't get us through but that's because we weren't communicating like we should have been, and never had either. My realizations of our marriage/relationship dynamic are post-A...

Things are not good with her. As much as I am unhappy in the spot she put us in, it pales to what a shit show her life is. All for a cheap thrill.

Reminds me of that saying, 'Is the screwing you get, worth the screwing you are gonna get?"

Reminds me of that saying, 'Is the screwing you get, worth the screwing you are gonna get?"

Kicker is, they never believe they are going to get caught. This saying never comes to mind. My WH truly believed he was going to get away with it so never thought about the consequences at all.

I love this thread. So much.

WorstClubEver, onthefence, OwningItNow. I agree with this whole line of thinking that you’ve just brought up in the last few posts.

Don’t have time to add my two cents at the moment, but just wanted to say I appreciate everyone who is contributing to this thread.

The father's advice is a couple of generations out of date. That world is dead.

Today, lawyers marry other lawyers. No one cares about cooking. They want a peer in professional class.

Wise idea, too. I would not recommend letting the other spouse stay at home with the kids too long. Too expensive if divorced.

Reminds me of that saying, 'Is the screwing you get, worth the screwing you are gonna get?"

That would be ok if it just screwed you. Though things are worse for her, I’m single and looking for someone to share my life with. My daughter who is hoping to get married, is obsessing about how we can’t sit as a family, and what if I want to bring a date. Not to mention I have half as much money as I once did

Again, all this destruction for something she said meant nothing I just wish the WS could think beyond their own needs and look ahead to what the future would be not if, but when they got caught.

It’s not just the BS whose life changes. Families are destroyed too.

I would not recommend letting the other spouse stay at home with the kids too long.

Oh boy. Mom of two little littles here. My husband isn’t going to “let” me stay home with them, nor is he going to control or unilaterally decide how long I do. It’s going to be a joint decision based on what’s best for the family, not what would be the most expensive in a potential divorce.

That being said, we were six years out from my infidelity before we had a child and we are now nine years out so I’m probably looking at it through a different lens than some of you are.

Oh boy. Mom of two little littles here. My husband isn’t going to “let” me stay home with them, nor is he going to control or unilaterally decide how long I do. It’s going to be a joint decision based on what’s best for the family, not what would be the most expensive in a potential divorce.

That being said, we were six years out from my infidelity before we had a child and we are now nine years out so I’m probably looking at it through a different lens than some of you are.

I speak from experience. Ex left me to be with another man who she has married. SAHM status affected how often I see the kids and how much is in my household, enriches hers at the expense of mine. She continues to stay at home.

I played it the trusting way. I got burned. I cannot sit back and let others have the same experience. Get a prenup so you are treated fairly should infidelity and divorce ensue. Either side, W or H. I wanted fairness and did not get it.

I am sincerely sorry you were treated unfairly, and I don’t think it’s right that working parents often get the shaft in divorce compared to the SAH parent. Your post just seemed to be painting with a very broad brush about the situation, and using the word “let” implies that one spouse is in charge of the other, which, unless in a dom/sub arrangement, is (hopefully) inaccurate.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 5:18 PM, March 23rd (Saturday)]

I played it the trusting way. I got burned. I cannot sit back and let others have the same experience. Get a prenup so you are treated fairly should infidelity and divorce ensue. Either side, W or H. I wanted fairness and did not get it.

Having children and EITHER parent staying home without a prenup is taking a gun, loading it, putting it to your head and trusting the other person to NEVER pull the trigger, no matter how mad they are, what some OM/OW tell them, or what way the wind blows. It's crazy, and, no, I would never recommend anyone do it. And remember, a prenup can only protect you against alimony, CS is derived by formula, and.. If you make a lot of money and your partner stays home, well.. Your CS payments could be shocking. It's knowable though, at least that's not at the court's discretion, you can look it up ahead of time.

Sadly, the current legal environment has made having children a landmine of financial pain for lots of people (men and women, but, by and large, mostly men). No fault D is a good idea, but, coupled with the rest of D law.. Well, it's wildly unfair. There are a lot of men paying alimony to a wife, who's happily shacked up with another man and will never again work a day in her life (and the same in reverse, only far less common). And there are a lot of women and some men collecting CS payments that allow them to never work again, or at least not until the child is 18 years old. The system is broken badly, the concept that I could be paying tons of money to my cheating wife is just.. Well, it's so wrong that it hardly requires explanation.

Your post just seemed to be painting with a very broad brush about the situation, and using the word “let” implies that one spouse is in charge of the other, which, unless in a dom/sub arrangement, is (hopefully) inaccurate.

"Let" probably isn't the right word. But you better agree on it ahead of time. And I think his advice is sound, sadly, the way that the laws are setup now, the best course of advice is "both work, outsource child care" because then both partners are protected. And maybe that's how society wants it to be, I just don't think it's how a lot of mothers and some fathers (who want to SAH with their kids) wants it to be. But if you have 2 100K earners heading towards a baby, the right financial advice is clear, "both keep your jobs, hire someone with the money from your job to look after the kids". Anything else puts the non-working spouse into a shocking position of power over the working spouse.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 5:42 PM, March 23rd (Saturday)]