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Married, 3 children, wife had EA (?). Need advice.

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BSPheonix posted 11/27/2019 11:38 AM

In brief:
Jan: Wife locks eyes with former colleague at training event. They exchange messages via work email.
Feb: Work email is followed by personal messages via WhatsApp. Double-figures per day, from 7am to midnight some days. Wife emotionally detaches from me. They start meeting.
Mar: Exchanges continue. Still meeting 'for coffee' when they can.
Apr: Culminates in them both taking an afternoon off to meet for lunch and, they kiss. Wife supposedly gets cold feet and, tells me our marriage needs to change if we have a future.
May: Wife still frosty but things getting better. I've had my suspicions for a while.
Jun/July: I find incriminating messages.
Aug-present: still think I'm being lied to but, attempting to reconcile. Wife tells me she isn't a typical EA (that progresses to a PA), insisting that she's different and, telling the truth. I find this place ( and, it's like finding a new family (for the wrong reasons!).


Hi, I've been lurking and now have the bottle to post. Looking for advice and hope you can help. Apologies in advance for the lengthy post.

I'm 42, my wife's 38. We have 3 young children. At the start of this year, following the death of my father, I began to feel my wife's behaviour toward me change -- she became cold, withdrawn, flat in her responses to me and, in a couple of instances, even physically recoiled from me (in response to attempts to hug). Arguments initiated by her began to be commonplace. During this time my wife activated password protection on her phone (which I noticed when trying to play music to our children via a shared Spotify account) and, I also discovered an email to a male work colleague that displayed nothing but 5 kisses. I confronted her but was met with excuses and, I believe 'gaslighting' (a term I've recently learned).

By early April my wife had sat me down and told me we have problems with our relationship and things need to change if we've a future together. I was floored and, broken. She told me we weren't intimate enough for one thing (unsurprising to me as I was aware of her alleged body image issues which put her off sex) and, that we'd been arguing too much. I suggested we should, as part of 'intensive care' for our marriage, get physical asap, but she told me she wasn't ready for this (she'd 'checked out' of our marriage of course) and, if I remember correctly (which I think I do but she denies) she told me she doesn't feel connected enough to be intimate with me. I agreed to change and, things began to get better. The first time we were intimate, she cried and, I've wondered since then if this was guilt but, I'll never know.

By July our relationship was far better and, we were on a family holiday. However, I couldn't get over the gut instinct that she'd cheated and, checked her phone. To be brief, I found messages to her best friend (female) stating how an old co-worker she had a crush on a decade ago (when we were together but not married) was attending some training (in Jan) she was running. I confronted her and she confessed she'd met him a few times for coffee but that was it.

When we returned from holiday I asked for both her personal and work phones. I checked her work phone first and, found deleted messages to her AP. In these messages it mentioned they should use WhatsApp to communicate. I then attempted to recover deleted messages from her personal phone but only found one WhatsApp message to the AP. In this my wife asks the AP how he knows so much about Tinder that he can talk with the waiter about it (this is where I learned she had coffee with him while at work -- at a local hotel where his gym is). She also asks for a photo of him and, he sends a head-shot -- she tells him it's handsome. Anyway, that's incriminating enough but, I tell my wife I've recovered all messages she's sent and, I'll read them in good time but, I want her to take this opportunity to tell me something I don't know before I find out, so that I have a foundation for trust going forward. She tells me not to read all the messages and says in them she talks about how she doesn't think her marriage to me will work and, how in another timeline perhaps they should have been married. I tell my wife (at a later date) that I couldn't stomach reading all the messages and therefore deleted them (this of course isn't true, as I only had 1 message).

Since then, I asked my wife to delete his contact number in her phone (it was stored under a female pseudonym). She was originally resistant to this, stating that she could use it to call-screen and know to not answer. She then confesses that, part of the reason for falling into this 'emotional affair' was that her AP was suicidal and, she was helping him. I told her she should have directed him to professional help. She also stated that she told the AP no contact in Apr but, I find messages to him in May (the course he was attending -- which she teaches -- ended in June) and, she admits they're flirty and that, in hindsight, she was confused and, was still in the process of bonding with me. Did I mention that, my wife says they met several times (most at work: coffees, lunch, taking an afternoon off work together to go for lunch and a walk around a park...and 'just one kiss'). She also 'went to the gym' one evening when I was putting our 3 children to bed but, instead met him for coffee. Apparently, the kiss was her wake-up call (back in April) and, why she ended it (before things got more physical...and, she confessed she felt sexual attraction to him).

Where are we now? Attempting to reconcile following my wife "being in a bubble" but, I feel like I'm still in the process of finding out. I understand the timeline. I've contacted the AP (didn't get much other than he agrees: their 'friendship' was inappropriate and, didn't go beyond a kiss) and, I also asked her to tell her immediate family (which she did), one objective being to balance the negative perception she'd communicated of me when having her affair (perhaps this is normal or, an 'exit affair' strategy). I feel like she just wants to forget and move on.We've both read 'Not Just Friends' (though I initially had to encourage her).I do check her phones (I've told her I don't want to and, do it in secret). She does seem to be extremely remorseful in words and, describes herself as being disgusted and ashamed by herself but, I don't feel it reflected in action. I'm wondering if I should voice record and, look at personal bank records. I did threaten to leave while I got my head sorted out and, even went as far as booking accommodation but, she begged me not to. I worry that she indulges in perception management and, may be...untrustworthy and, not interested in my wellbeing. Is there anything I should be doing (or not)? I should say that, in all of this, the wellbeing of my children is the most important thing to me. They are my world.

The easiest path would be for me to give her all my love but, I don't think this is the wisest.

Thank you patient people. I hope that was coherent.

Edit: one of the things that pains me the most is all the opportunities she had for guilt/ self-reflection. My father died in Jan (and I had to pay for the funeral), my deceased brother's birthday was in Feb, followed by the anniversary of his death in early March, then one of our children's birthdays and, finally, her own birthday in April, for which I planned a surprise birthday party with many of her friends. Sigh.

[This message edited by BSPheonix at 4:31 AM, December 5th (Thursday)]

layla1234 posted 11/27/2019 11:43 AM

Sorry, but it wasn't "just a kiss ". You don't take a day off work to go for a stroll and kiss. I bet there was a hotel involved, especially if he's not single.

elKAPPYtan posted 11/27/2019 11:57 AM

this sounds pretty familiar to my situation except my WW aand ger AP never met up in person. i don't really want to be a wet blanket, but the % of EA with proximity that don't turn into sex is very very low, and most of the time they don't is because the BS caught it in time.

Some of their behavior gives me a gut feeling it was more than a kiss. And You shouldn't believe what either of them are telling you.

I personally would get a VAR and strongly consider a polygraph as a means of getting the full truth from her. I couldn't start to heal until I got the full truth, i couldn't be asked to forgive her if I didn't know what I was forgiving.

sorry you are here. others with more experience will be along with better advice... i recommend taking their advice. good luck

[This message edited by elKAPPYtan at 11:58 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)]

faithfulman posted 11/27/2019 12:02 PM

Your wife is basically checking all the boxes for what cheaters do when they are in a sexual relationship outside of their marriage, as well as what they say when they are busted: lie, minimize, gaslight.

What software did you use to recover the phone messages?


If you and she want to reconcile:

Your wife need to write a detailed timeline of her cheating. She's going to lie on it but it sets a baseline for her lies that you can use to corner her as her deception unravels.

She has to remove herself from any and all places she could meet with the AP even if that means she has to quit her job.

Don't go to marriage counseling!

You need to hunker down and go into investigator mode (Unless you are ready to sayfuck it).

That means install phone surveillance software on her phone, get some voice activated recorders to bust her when she inevitably communicates with her AP etc., make sure you are tracking her location via her phone or other methods, and install a keylogger on her computer.

Do these things and you will know what you need to know sooner rather than later.

I'd you want yo do this I will share more detailed information with you.

And when you have more information and are ready, she needs to take a polygraph.

Best of luck to you BSPheonix.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 3:46 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]

rugswept posted 11/27/2019 12:20 PM

I'm sorry you're here. We're all sorry you're here.

I don't think your M is over. I do know your W is a cheating liar. (All of this is only my opinion).

Every week there is at least one poster who says about the wayward met with the AP and they just kissed. Just kissed, and nothing else. It always turns out that's one of the biggest lies they ever tell. It always goes way beyond that to various sex acts and full blown intercourse.

Adults don't get together, secretly, to meet and kiss. That's what middle schoolers and high schoolers do.

I agree with the other poster on the timeline. Get the basics and then keep going over it so she can fill in "the details". Tell her the only way to save this M is to stop lying. And then threaten her with a polygraph, and make the steps to see it through.

You should try to save this M. This all sounds like mid life crisis stuff. Yes, she cheated and she had sex (another "gym guy" story). Yes, she did everything with him that she does with you.

She might be trying to save your family. You do have to be willing to forgive. And she has to start telling the truth.

She's just another plain old lying, run of the mill cheater, like all the rest. And deny, deflect, gaslight, accuse you even, get angry at you, say you're unfair ... ra da da da da.

That's my opinion from what you said and what the history of this forum and other forums have shown.

Please give her a chance to come clean and do what you can to save your M for your sake and the sake of your children. This is horrifying for a child to live through all this. I know, as a child, I did.

nekonamida posted 11/27/2019 12:21 PM

She also 'went to the gym' one evening when I was putting our 3 children to bed but, instead met him for coffee. Apparently, the kiss was her wake-up call (back in April) and, why she ended it (before things got more physical...and, she confessed she felt sexual attraction to him).

But she lied about cutting him off in April so actually that wasn't a wake up call, this didn't just end at one kiss, and she met up with him at a hotel. "For coffee". Riiiiight.

You can't R without knowing what you're R'ing with. You can only rugsweep. A VAR and bank records MIGHT be useful but what you could also do is take her phone to a PI or data recovery specialist and get those messages. You can tell her that a requirement of R is for her to give you a detailed timeline of the A and then pass a polygraph. If she refuses, it's because she's lying and there's a whole lot more that you don't know about.

She does seem to be extremely remorseful in words and, describes herself as being disgusted and ashamed by herself but, I don't feel it reflected in action

Remorse is easy to fake with words but if she was truly remorseful, her ACTIONS would match. If she's withholding the truth and lying, she's not remorseful. Please go look at one of our many remorse vs. regret threads around to see what a remorseful WS looks like. Remorse is about YOU. It's about her doing everything she can to put you and your healing first. Lying is putting herself first.

The easiest path would be for me to give her all my love but, I don't think this is the wisest.

It's only the easiest path if you want to get a new DDay. It's not the easiest path as a BS because it's asking something of you that is impossible - Unring the bell. Ignore the lies right in front of you. Trust someone who back stabbed you. Stuff down your pain and suffering instead of the healthy choice of working through it. It WILL haunt you. It WILL come back to bite you in some shape or form. It WON'T just go away.

If you want R, the BEST path to it is to get the truth and see real, concrete effort from your WS to fix this. That includes something else she hasn't done - show accountability. She needs to accept that SHE and SHE ALONE chose to cheat. It doesn't matter what you did or didn't do. It was all on her. She chose the worst and most selfish thing to do in face of marriage issues. She could have even D'd you and it would have been better and less painful than this. So any explanation for her cheating that includes YOU is false and unremorseful. Don't accept it and stand up for yourself if she tries to blame you for this.

ryno posted 11/27/2019 12:25 PM

Be sure of what you are forgiving. How can you possibly consider reconciliation when you don't know all the facts?

Secondly, the word "confused" is a euphuism for wanting space to have sex with the affair partner,

Adults do not rendezvous to kiss. You know and I know there is much more to it.

The unwillingness of your wife to have sex with you is a giveaway that she has given herself to her new partner.

Give yourself space to think this through logically and be prepared to lose the marriage if necessary to move ahead.

numb&dumb posted 11/27/2019 12:58 PM

She does seem to be extremely remorseful in words and, describes herself as being disgusted and ashamed by herself but, I don't feel it reflected in action.

I think you and I both know that this means that her remorse isn't genuine. It is manipulation to get you to agree to rug sweep so "next time," she is better at hiding it. I don't mean to sound critical, but too many WS swear on anything that is holy that they've "learned their lesson." They will be on "good behavior," until the next crisis hits that they need to escape from. If she is really that genuine what is willing to do ? Would she agree to a poly? Would she be ok with you having a professional recover all of her texts with AP ? I'd doubt it. The only way this works is if she carries no more secrets and only then can it be dealt with.

It is also clear that she did a lot of mental gymnastics to keep the cognitive dissonance at bay. She was doing things she knew were wrong, but keep doing them because she wanted to. To keep the guilt/conscience/et al in check she "created," a reason to allow her to keep what she was doing.

At the end of the day she has not come to terms with herself. She is still clinging onto the false self image of herself because the idea of having an A is not compatible with who she believes she is.

You mentioned she has body issues (who doesn't) and more than likely low self esteem. The "false," validation she got from their interaction was really the hook. She needs to understand that validation was in no way legitimate.

Honestly, I think her issues only become unraveled if she takes a very hard and deep look at herself. More than likely with a trained professional. She has spent a lifetime of using many "tricks" to keep that low self esteem bareable.

At the end of the day she doesn't validate herself or even like who she is or has become. She can't fake this, but if she wants a chance a reconciled M then she has to do that work to fix her own issues. Unfortunately she doesn't seem very motivated and I agree with others that there this more.

No WS wants to "leave it in the past," or "we are happy now," etc. Those are just redirection attempts at you finding out the real truth. I am sorry, but there is likely more. It could be inconsequential or it could be something she believes is a deal breaker.

Until she can be honest with herself about who she actually is versus who she pretends to be you don't have a good chance at building a new M where you both are happy.

You might stay M'd, but that isn't the same as building a M that works for both of you.

Right now, you need to explore any and all options, including a D. You need to detach from her and figure out what you want.

Keep in mind that the trap a lot of us BS fall into is that we think "familiar," is the same as, "safe." There mutually exclusive. If she isn't willing to make big changes and fix her own demons then she likely isn't worth a second chance.

That is really what she is hoping you will just give to her. Make her earn it by working on herself and becoming an authentic person. You can find grace and possibly even forgive, but she isn't giving much in the way of actions.

Don't trust the words only the actions. Passive compliance is not indicative of remorse. She should want every opportunity to prove to you that you can trust her again. She must earn your trust back. Right now I'd bet she is making it worse.

FWIW- She is at the regret stage and has yet to reach remorse. Without remorse there is no chance at reconciliation.

ShutterHappy posted 11/27/2019 13:38 PM

You can't R without knowing what you're R'ing with.

Exactly. We don’t know if your WW is R material at this point. But you need to get the truth first.

Like the others have said, “just one kiss” is very common, followed by “we only had sex twice but I didn’t like it”. Taking the afternoon off for lunch? Hard to believe.

Have you contacted the AP’s wife (the OBS?)

Again, repeating the other posts, full detailed timeline, then poly.

you need to get the truth first.

Then you decide whether you want to R or D based on something closer to the truth than what you have right now.

Post often, we’ve all been there, we know how it’s like and we can help.

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 1:39 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]

Jameson1977 posted 11/27/2019 13:49 PM

Hi BSPheonix, welcome to the worst club you never wanted to join.

Since you have been reading before you posted, I would imagine you have seen how many "emotional affairs" were in fact physical. If this is something that that is important to you, maybe consider a polygraph. Amazing how many "parking lot confessions" you read about here.

MickeyBill2016 posted 11/27/2019 13:51 PM

She seems be following the cheater handbook and we all know where that end up.

Old boyfriend
Goes on dates, meeting for coffee with someone you want to bang is a date.
Was the training in town or out of town?
"One" kiss
Stopping sex with you
Putting his name in her address book as a woman is typical.

You really are lucky that you found this, but there is a lot more to be found out.

Do you think that their stories lining up is a coincidence?

RedHeadTemper posted 11/27/2019 14:08 PM

The first time we were intimate, she cried and, I've wondered since then if this was guilt but, I'll never know

This is your gut talking. It's telling you there was more. Listen to it. And realize your in denial. I'm sorry man. This sucks. I didn't resort to a poly because my wife has been open and my gut agrees with me, and I've seen that she's telling the truth.

You're wife is not yelling the truth. Advice? Poly, then D if she's lying. If she comes clean before the poly and the poly shows the truth, then move forward how you feel is best.

Trust me, the sex isn't the big deal. The big deal is the lying and the breaking trust. And she continues to do that.

Thumos posted 11/27/2019 14:10 PM

First, very sorry you are here. This is one of the most painful and traumatic life experiences a person can endure. You are a strong, quality man and you will get through this.

Second, a splash of cold water. Your wife is not special. The pedestal she used to be on has been blown to smithereens, and when you try to reconstruct it, your brain will not allow it. She's like every other WW we've seen over and over. The "just kissed" is a dead giveaway. Bluntly, your wife is a shifty bullshitter. You won't know her and you'll think body snatchers switched her out. They didn't. This is her. You need to amend your thinking right now. Your WW had (and is having) a physical affair, not an emotional one. The moment she engaged in passionate deep kissing (and that's what happened) it became physical. And the moment the deep kissing barrier is breached, the physical becomes sex very quickly. Simply think about your own body and your own sexual desires. Women like sex as much as men (even if they often try to sell a story that says otherwise). Women like sex. Adults have sex. End of story. Your wife cried during intimacy with you and withheld herself from you because she was being "faithful" to the new man she thinks she's in love with. Do I know these things as fact, for sure, without any doubt? Of course not. But myself and others have seen this far too many times to think differently about it.

Third, I always recommend you harden your armor and gird your loins so to speak -- and get ready to implement a series of very specific steps (more below). This may not be a "D" type of war yet, but you are in fact engaged in a profound and difficult kind of psychic and spiritual warfare with your wife. That sucks, but it's the truth. She declared a kind of war on you and you didn't even know it. Getting yourself mentally prepared to take these steps is important. That means don't allow her to blameshift or gaslight you anymore. It means no more cake-eating for her. It means shock and awe. It means don't go soft in the face of her manipulative tears. It means don't let her put you in a p*ssy coma. Etc.

Please nota bene, these things aren't a panacea, but they are a prerequisite for you getting clear of infidelity, extricating yourself from the moral morass she's trying to drag you into, getting the truth, and then deciding whether you want to D or R based on informed choices with real data.

So here you go, here’s the package - just my opinion, but I think it will save you from a lot of heartache. Keep in mind you need to see these steps as a whole, a complete package of non-negotiables, a take it or leave it proposition. She either does it, or you hand her a separation agreement and divorce papers....

A. She documents an immediate NC text, email and letter and she hands over access to her devices and accounts (social media etc). You download everything that has been deleted with recovery software (Fonelab). It's "hand the phone over right now or we're done." No bullshit from her about her "privacy" or anything else. She doesn't get to have privacy now. If she wants her privacy, you divorce.

B. You immediately contact the OBS and tell this innocent woman her husband has cheated on her. She deserves to know.

C. Immediate IC for both of you, preferably with therapists who specialize in betrayal trauma (this is important; don't miss it). You are the victim of betrayal trauma now, but that doesn't mean you need to stay a victim. IC is for her to own this and figure out why she's such a fuck up. IC is for you to process and heal. No MC -- too late! That marriage is dead, dead, dead. It doesn't need "counseling." It needs to be buried. MC is a big fat waste of time and money, and will only allow blameshifting on to you.

D. Full STD panel for her and for you. And until you know she's clean, you'd best avoid any hysterical bonding sex with her. Tell her this is what you want and it's not up for debate. If she can't do this minimal thing for your peace of mind, then you need to be quits with her. (By the way, yes STD's can be transmitted via deep kissing).

E. Written timeline of the entire affair. Detailed, WRITTEN, narrative timeline. This makes her put it in black and white and puts psychic pressure on her to stop lying (and it seems fairly clear here she still is lying; they usually do). In this case, give her a week to finish it and hand it over. She had plenty of time to screw around, she's got plenty of time to detail her affair in writing for you.

F. Polygraph exam for her tested against the timeline for veracity and truthfulness. Polys are cheap in the long run, about $500 or less. Better accuracy with one single question, like "did you have sex with him?” but you can ask additional questions for the same price (the accuracy goes down a little bit with each added question, however). Polys are accurate, but the real purpose is to exert psychic pressure on her to come completely clean, so you know what you are really dealing with (and brother, you don’t yet). The FBI, U.S. Senate, intelligence community and military all use them for a reason. You'll read a lot here about the proverbial parking lot confession. It's not cruel, it's rational and smart. You need to be rational and smart right now.

G. Moving forward, a post nuptial agreement for you to protect you from divorce rape in the event of future infidelity. She's demonstrated a worldview callously capable of adultery. Cheaters don't always repeat, but post nups are recommended for a reason. Better get one to protect yourself.

H. She must read and implement How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair. No balking, no weaseling, no delays. Then she provides a written plan for how she will implement all of the book's “to do list" immediately.

I. Lastly, VAR her. VAR her car especially. You need intel (like does she have a burner phone?) and she's not a trustworthy person. That lovely woman you just want to kiss and hold? In the words of Duck Dynasty, “she gone” and this person in front of you is your real wife, not the imaginary one you thought you had.

She *might* have it in her to become the wife you deserve, but that’s a very big unknown. She certainly isn’t the wife you deserve now and has done to you the ultimate act of disrespect, dishonor and contempt that a wife can do to a husband. Any act of unfaithfulness is contempt writ large. So let's say she "just flirted" - that alone would be enough to drop shock and awe on her. You're dealing with something much worse than that, and she's in deep.

I hope you'll take these steps. But it's just my opinion. Hoping for the best for you and your children. For the AP, I'm hoping for nothing but hot coals on his head; he's a complete scumbag and moral reprobate. For your WW... well, I'm hoping she comes clean, owns her shit and tries to repair the damage she's done -- with real remorse and empathy for you.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:19 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]

Thumos posted 11/27/2019 14:17 PM

I would also recommend seeing an attorney immediately and having divorce papers and separation agreement drawn up immediately for standby. You can change your mind later.

And implement the hard 180 on her right now. When and if she delivers on EVERY element of the package of non-negotiables, you can begin to soften the 180 over time.

Thumos posted 11/27/2019 14:38 PM

Was the emoji heart email to the colleague and her AP the same person? Or are these two different men? If the latter, you have even bigger problems on your hands.

Robert22205https posted 11/27/2019 14:54 PM

Every spouse deserves to feel safe from infidelity. Your wife's behavior failed.

Your marriage and the woman you married are destroyed.

Now it's up to her to do whatever you need to restore trust and build a new marriage.

From this point on only judge her by her actions (vs her words, excuses, or promises).

It's not intuitive but the more decisive you are in showing zero tolerance and heading out the door - the more likely you are to save your marriage (if that's what you decide).

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 2:55 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]

BSPheonix posted 11/27/2019 15:52 PM

Blimey! I wasn't even sure I'd see a single reply yet, let alone so many. I'm grateful to you all for your words. It's difficult to reply to all comments individually but hopefully I cover everything with the following:

EA or PA? My gut and chance tell me it's more likely to be a PA than simply an EA so, thanks for the comments. I've told myself that things are just as bad regardless; the reason I want to attempt to confirm the truth is so that I know if I'm being lied to (as you've all said or alluded to: this is the crux of the matter -- whether I'm still being lied to).

VAR: I've ordered a couple from Amazon this evening. Thank you.

Timeline: I constructed my own which, she seems to agree with but, she tells me she can't be certain on details as the messages are deleted. Should I ask her to create one by herself without info from me?

Recovery software: I can't remember. I used about 5 different products (some free; some paid). I also recovered deleted WhatsApp messages (I said 1 in my original post but it was a conversation comprised of several) by deleting WhatsApp from her phone, re-installing then selecting the last backup. When the backup restores it also restores an deleted messages. I used to be a software developer and, still work in IT so, I know my way around databases and devices. She wasn't expecting me to find anything when handing her phones to me explaining that there's nothing for her to hide, she's revealed all. Another term I've recently learned is 'trickle truthing'. I never thought I'd be learning a new language so late in age! I can't get any more deleted messages back from the phone. It was at its storage capacity and, any data marked for deletion was rapidly being overwritten. Thank you for the offer of help.

Counselling: We go to counselling but, it's relationship counselling rather than 'marriage counselling'. Regardless, I'm done with the specific counsellor -- at our last session the counsellor asked if I'd like to console my crying wife by giving her a hug. WTF school of thought is that approach from?!

No Contact: I should have been clear. Her 'colleague' hasn't worked in the same office for years (I now know where he works, what car he drives and, where he lives and, he seems to be separated), the point being that, if they meet at work it should, theoretically, only be by chance at another future training event (which aren't frequent) but, the meet is of course a possibility and, we've spoke about it. Since I've messaged him, there seems to have been no contact. I will have her send an NC message and witness it.

OBS/partner: I'm still trying to determine if he has a partner. My wife says he is separated (apparently his wife and children live in the same town, perhaps no further than a mile away!).

STD check: I asked her to go some time ago. She agreed she would if I wanted her to. I didn't push it. I will.

Post Nup: I'd thought of this but hadn't checked if they were enforceable where I stay in the UK (my username doesn't mean of course I'm in Phoenix, Arizona). Oh dear, I've just realised that, in my tired state I incorrectly spelled phoenix (see username). Ha!

Polygraph: I spoke with WS this evening and, she's said she'll do a polygraph (I'll need to research who reliably does these in the UK). She explained that she knows there's a pattern to EA becoming PA but, that she's honestly an outlier/non-typical. We'll see I guess.

How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair: I wasn't aware of this book. I'll order a copy this evening.

Thumos: the emoji heart email? Sorry, not sure I follow. Posted in error?

The present and future: I've emphasised to my wife that our marriage is dead and, that, if we're to reconcile (into marriage no. 2), it needs to be on a foundation of trust. I've tried to emphasise it's so important to me that, if I were to discover years down the line she'd had a PA, I'd divorce her not for the act itself but for making me live another lie.

I sincerely thank you for telling me what I needed to hear and, more importantly galvanise me to do what seems to be necessary. I'm humbled by your helpful responses.

[This message edited by BSPheonix at 4:05 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]

Thumos posted 11/27/2019 16:11 PM

EA or PA? My gut and chance tell me it's more likely to be a PA than simply an EA so, thanks for the comments

Don't debate yourself about this anymore. Deep kissing occurred. It's a physical affair.

VAR: I've ordered a couple from Amazon this evening. Thank you.

Good. Make sure you put some black tape over the displays to prevent lighting up. Use industrial Velcro strips to secure in car. Put a clipped headphone jack into prevent accidental audible playback.

Should I ask her to create one by herself without info from me?

She should create a detailed day by day (and in some cases hour by hour) timeline that is a narrative with details for you. She doesn't need info from you. She was there and an active participant. If she says "I don't know" and "I can't remember" to events, she's lying.

Counselling: We go to counselling but, it's relationship counselling rather than 'marriage counselling'. Regardless, I'm done with the specific counsellor -- at our last session the counsellor asked if I'd like to console my crying wife by giving her a hug. WTF school of thought is that approach from?!

This is a complete waste of time and money. Get out of it. Get into an IC that specializes in betrayal/infidelity trauma. They will often treat instances of spouses betrayed by sex addiction, but the same methodology covers infidelity as well. The IC for her should also be someone who specializes in betrayal trauma to hold her accountable. In some cases, IC's in this field will work together.

Do you think I should have her send an email to him. Regardless, I will have her send an NC message.

She should send both an NC text to his phone and an NC text to his email. They should both be documented for you and unvarnished in the language used. "My husband has been informed our adulterous affair. Do not contact me again. You are blocked."

OBS/partner: I'm still trying to determine if he has a partner. My wife says he is separated (apparently his wife and children live in the same town, perhaps no further than a mile away!).

Do your best here. Your WW could very well be lying, he could still be married, and she doesn't want you to tell the OBS.

Post Nup: I'd thought of this but hadn't checked if they were enforceable where I stay in the UK

A lawyer should be able to answer this, but be sure to get a second opinion if they don't know.

Thumos: the emoji heart email? Sorry, not sure I follow. Posted in error?

You mentioned early in your narrative that "I also discovered an email to a male work colleague that displayed nothing but 5 kisses." I was wondering if this was to the same man, or a different man. In other words, is there more than one man?

Yes, see a lawyer as soon as possible so you know your options.

And yes, insist on the STD tests. Insist on the polygraph after she completes the detailed WRITTEN timeline in her own hand.

And lastly, yes, implement a hard 180 on her immediately until she complies with the package of non-negotiables.

Thumos posted 11/27/2019 16:16 PM

If they work at the same company - regardless of whether they are in the "same office" - it's a huge problem and a continuing violation of your trust.

She should be willing to seek gainful employment elsewhere.

Also, keep one of the VARs on you in your pocket at all times. When shit starts to get real for WW's -- even when divorce isn't yet on the table -- we've seen too many stories about WW's instigating false domestic violence charges and then getting a VPO against a betrayed husband.

It's a control tactic and gives them an advantage in divorce proceedings. Don't let that happen to you. A VAR on your person protects you by not allowing her to lie about your interactions.

Mene posted 11/27/2019 16:21 PM

It’s gone physical.

She’s lying.

We’ve seen this “just kissed” line many many times before. 99% it’s usually found out later that it was sex, too.

They spent an afternoon just “kissing”. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

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