SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'll try to keep brief, but prob won't be successful..

I'm 47, M, her, 39. Started dating over a year ago. Slow at first, but we gradually moved closer and closer to exclusivity, which began at about the 4 month mark. At about 5 month mark, we did a workout together with this other guy at our gym (team competition) and not long after that, they started following each other on social media. As did I and him.

From that point until about 2 months later, I noticed an increasing amount of 'likes' for each others posts on social media but nothing else that would raise an eyebrow. We had a great holiday season and new year's eve trip and I just filed that stuff away for later (because that's how my mind works, having been betrayed badly by ex wife and ex girlfriend).

We broke up at end of February, for reasons unrelated to that guy. I broke it off after a lot of very careful consideration.

But then, about 3 weeks later, after much more deliberation and soul searching and talking w/ trusted friends, I decided I was being a fool and that it was a mistake to break it off. I wanted her back. I had come to the conclusion that she was marriage material (based on all I knew up until that time).

I texted her after seeing her for the first time since break-up. It was cordial and nice, but I think at that point she thought I was just trying to be 'friends'. A few more messages and a few more days went by and I made it clear I'd like to get together, I had some things I was hoping to discuss with her.

That same week, I noticed that she had gone hiking with her kids and they had gone to a place and hiked with this guy and his kids. She made a post about it and said something to the effect of 'great time with new friends, looking forward to more'. (she has since edited that post and removed that part)

We made plans to meet on Sunday to talk. On Thursday before, I sent her flowers and said I was looking forward to it. By that point she should've had a pretty good idea what I was wanting to talk about.

On Friday before, our gym had a party after hours. I asked her if she was going, she texted back 'yes' but nothing about having a date.

I had a suspicion she might be going with that guy as a date. Sure enough, they showed up together. I left as soon as I could and she saw me leave.

She contacted me very early the next morning, said she saw me leave, was hoping everything was okay. She knew why I left without me even saying, said she had already made plans with him and knew it might be awkward but decided to go anyway, not being certain about what I wanted to discuss on Sunday.

I know for a fact he was at her house until at least 3:30 AM after the party. At 6 AM she was messaging me about our scheduled talk and me leaving the party.

We talked about it and everything else, and she assured me he was never really in the picture, she saw some things she didn't like, and she wanted to get back together too. They came across each other on Bumble in the period of time we were broken up, according to her (I do know she was on there for a while)

I never told her I knew how late he was at her house. I did ask her if she slept with him and she flat out said no.

She had another date set up with him the next week to a concert she bought tickets for, for us originally. She canceled that with him after we had our talk, and told him we were getting back together (something to that effect, I didn't read the texts).

With that behind us, we dove deep into relationship new beginnings, almost like a new chapter, and the next few months are great. Other guy gets a new girlfriend, still keeps coming to same gym, but we mostly avoid them (new girlfriend started there too) and I wasn't worried in the least.

The social media interactions seemed to stop. She dropped him off Instagram, not from facebook.

Few months go by. Very happy then, and not once did my radar go off.

However, earlier last month, my gut starts bothering me about something. I don't know what. Just that instinctual feeling. Sometimes I think it's overly paranoid from the scars my exes have caused. But other times, it just won't stop and I think I have reasons to be cautious. I'm sure many of you know the feeling. Small little flags here and there, nothing too glaring.

Anyway, after a couple weeks of my gut screaming, I do manage to have a quick peek at her phone. She has a code on it, hasn't told me what it is, and is sometimes quite cagey or almost nervous if she's showing me something on her phone. Keeps it with her for most part, sometimes it's laying around, but takes it with her to bathroom a lot, and always keeps it face down.

Turns out, she had recently searched for him multiple times on facebook over the summer. Not in itself a big deal, I do that too sometimes. But then, at the height of my gut screaming at me, there is a text from her to him because his kids had moved schools and they now went where her kids are. She said she noticed this from facebook.

She initiated the text. He answered back. It all seemed mostly innocent in what they talked about. The language she used seemed to indicate they had not been in regular comms for a while.

But why would she open this line of communication with him? Common courtesy? She knows my triggers for the most part. She knows that his and her situation greatly mirrors another bad cheating incident done to me in the past. She knows that he is a sore point to me. To the best I can tell, they haven't had any communication since we got back together.

We've never discussed NC because he wasn't an affair, and whatever happened w them, it wasn't "cheating". We were broken up, technically, until I had that talk with her.

We did however, cover the concept of orbiting. How people will do this, just keep others in orbit, but not actually acting on anything concrete. A instagram like here, a facebook like there, an "innocent" (ie plausibly deniable) text about school or kids or some other thing. No big deal right? Happens all the time.

But a guy who showed up in this focal point of time for us, the night before we started our chapter 2, someone who she connected with in some way and who, on some level she knows she kept details from me? He orbited her for a while before we broke up, she was naive enough to not think all this social media footsie meant anything or was giving him ideas, and once things with me were "over", he is on a date with her. At her house until 3:30 AM.

And she decides to open this texting back up? Showing him that it's ok for communications to happen? That she still has his number?

Not sure how to proceed. Keep being alert, or just put the conversation out there? "Why did you text him about that"? I can see logically how it could just be politeness, but I still don't see the point given this specific dude. He didn't ask her about the school.

My gut won't shut up and it's becoming difficult to know if that's paranoia because of my past, or if there are real things I need to be concerned about. Ask her directly about this or keep an eye out? Would appreciate some objective eyes on this. Thanks!

Put the conversation out there.

Bump

I would ask her about it. Use it as a moment for opening up a conversation about communication and about relationship expectations.

I hate guessing...we shouldn't need to guess in relationships that matter. We should be able to talk

Since your gut speaks to you, you may get an even better feel for the situation by bringing it up and noting her reaction.

Unless you would rather keep watching - not letting her know you are concerned.

It is sort of a crap shoot.

Sorry you are feeling this way.

She has a code on it, hasn't told me what it is, and is sometimes quite cagey or almost nervous if she's showing me something on her phone. Keeps it with her for most part, sometimes it's laying around, but takes it with her to bathroom a lot, and always keeps it face down.

Based on my past experience and hearing other's stories, this is an enormous red flag.

From my viewpoint, she doesn't seem like relationship material. At best, she's just wishy-washy and can't really commit. At worst, you're an "active plan B" guy. In other words, she's with you but also still shopping, still fishing. You've made her a priority and I don't think she's reciprocating.

Personally, I'd walk. I know you have a year invested and you obviously care for her, but you owe it to yourself to be with someone who's unequivocally crazy about you. Teetering back and forth under her uncertainty and window shopping is a life of abundant attention for her and soul-sucking pain for you.

It's tough, especially these days with the proliferation of social media making it so easy for people to snake around under the guise of innocent "friends" and "connections". Thing is, a person in a relationship has no business staying in contact with exes. If they say otherwise, it's gaslighting pure and simple. Even if they're not actively cheating, they're certainly keeping one in the stable.

You lay down the law and you're a big, insecure meanie. You do nothing and she sees that she can vie for other men's attention right under your nose and get away with it. Lose/lose. Find someone that wants to be all-in with you.

Good luck and sorry you had reason to find your way here.

We talked about it and everything else, and she assured me he was never really in the picture, she saw some things she didn't like,

Her statement above seems a bit disingenuous. When you ended the relationship, within 3 weeks she was already dating this guy. I don't buy her explanation that she just happened find him on Bumble, especially when he orbited her before you broke up with her. Sure seems he was actually in the picture before and after you ended the relationship. It also seems questionable whether in the 3 weeks post break up, that she had time to "see some things she didn't like" with the OM. There is just something odd about what she had told you.

As you've said, the two of you were not together at the time, so whatever happened between them during that time, is not something you can really fault her for. But, her actions seem to indicate that she may want to rekindle something with this guy, or that she's craving his attention. Her nervously guarding her phone, is a big red flag.

Regardless, you should have an honest discussion with her to address your concerns about her contacting the OM.

Thanks all!

I think a good open and candid conversation is in order, about boundaries, about the whole story I wrote out for you guys to read, about him specifically. I'm with you Lowlow, I hate guessing.

I'm not worried about her taking it underground or any of that stuff. If it happens, it happens. I'll know it. As we all know, if someone wants to cheat, there's really no preventing it. I'll be bitter for sure if I feel like I have to turn into detective again after all the crap in my past. (fortunately though, I've gotten pretty good at it and my radar is strong:), but I'll do it to protect myself.

But as someone said, I should be able to gauge by her reaction whether or not she takes our relationship seriously enough and whether my trust is misplaced. If she scoffs at my concerns (she knows details of past betrayals of me) or downplays it, then I have a different decision to make. She's a very sincere person, almost naive in some ways about relationships and people's motives.

one other question if yall don't mind. A little embarrassed by it but whatever. Should I tell her I know how late he was at her house? Or just forever leave that in the past, since we were still technically "broken up"?

I woke up middle of night after the gym party fiasco, couldn't sleep, miserable that I had lost this woman who I decided I wanted and needed. Nothing helped sleep. So I got in my car and drove. After about 30 minutes of driving, I pointed towards her house. Curious if their date was still going, no clue what I was going to do, if anything, if he was there or not, I did a drive by. Then went home.

Hate that I did it, but I understand why I felt compelled to. Just don't know if I should let her know. But it's a pretty circumstantial piece of evidence against her claim that they didn't sleep together. She told me straight up the date was over around midnight, and she also flat out said no to my question about sex. That's 1 lie and 1 maybe lie.

a guy is at a woman's house until 3 I'm 99% sure they're doing the dirty. she's a liar. and you should run.

My WW was at her POSOM's house until 1:30am one night, I only know because my Uber account is hooked into her phone and she used it to get home.

I asked her what she was doing there until 1:30am and she said "Watching TV". I posed the question to one of her friends and the friend said "What the fuck do you think they were doing? Booty call."

I agree with others. RUN she's a liar.

Why do you think she may have lied and say that he went home around midnight?

I do think she is throwing out a line to the guy baiting him, sessing him for interest.

I don't fault her for seeing him dating him when you were fickle at the start. But I do fault her for lieing and "orbiting" him now.

I don't really believe in telling my partner what to do or how to behave.

She made a decision - to reach out and contact a person, which she KNOWS you will be uncomfortable with.

Now, you make a decision - accept it and carry on, or reject it and end the relationship.

If she didn't already know that this particular person was a bit of a problem for you, I might suggest that you get it out there by talking plainly about it. But the fact is that she KNOWS your feelings about him... and reached out anyway.

I mean this part gently... maybe you have more work to do on yourself. I don't think you are healed from past infidelity yet. There's a saying around here; "broken attracts broken", and this relationship has been pretty bumpy so far.

Creating - I honestly think she lied because of fear. She was afraid telling me the truth would change our conversation of getting back together.

She didn't hesitate at all, there was no pick me dance, no "I need time to think". We had our talk, I was as sincere and genuine in my words and actions as possible, and she was fully on board with us getting back together. I think she lied about that because fear told her if she was totally honest, I would have changed my mind. The 6 months after that were great and we fell madly in love.

Change - I completely agree with you on telling partner what to do, not do, how to behave, etc. She's going to do what she chooses. I'm only responsible for my actions and my reactions.

I'm going to talk with her tonight and you're right, it's a pretty binary decision based on that conversation. Stay and accept, or decide her actions and justifications are a deal breaker.

You're also right that I still need more healing. I don't think it precludes me from being in a healthy relationship though, but my triggers and scars are definitely still there.

I love this woman, and despite the flaws/failures I've laid out here, she is an awesome woman, mom, treats me and my daughter very very well, and other than the story about when he left, has given me no reason to think she's dishonest or untrustworthy. She's not lacking integrity, she's just perhaps lacking a clear understanding of boundaries.

But the reaching out to him again, even if innocent in nature, we all know the dangers of that. If she's throwing him a line saying it's ok to communicate, that tells me that while danger isn't imminent, what happens when we have a bad week? Or when he and his girlfriend have a bad week or break up?

I'm going to make it clear that I know her story about him leaving at midnight is not true.

I honestly think she lied because of fear. She was afraid telling me the truth would change our conversation of getting back together.

That's it right there. I don't think they were sharing a bottle of Pinot and playing Cards against Humanity into the wee hours. She thinks if she tells you they fucked a month out of you two breaking up it would make her look bad. I would tell her exactly what you told us about how you came to knew she was lying. That sounded reasonable to me. I'd tell her you were hoping she would at some point come forward with the truth of that night. Tell her that right now she is hitting some MAJOR triggers that suggest she has other intentions. Tell her, "hey, I got burnt twice. I'm no idiot. Lying about this detail was pointless. So what is actually going on?"

IMO, I think this guy was a potential OM. He was starting to wedge in between you two but you broke it off with her before he could push his agenda further and invite her down that slippery slope. So he's more than welcome to be a rebound relationship guy. On the flip side of the situation, you broke it off with her. Did you give her a good reason why? Really talk that one through? Because I can see why she may want this guy within arms reach in case you decide to break it off with her again. But then, that ought to tell you something about her as well...that maybe she is more afraid of being alone than losing you.

Yeah, this definitely calls for some honest conversation tonight.

[This message edited by Jduff at 2:56 PM, September 19th (Tuesday)]

"I honestly think she lied because of fear."

this is classic waywardness. it's what they all do.

I'm going to make it clear that I know her story about him leaving at midnight is not true.

Sounds like you want to salvage this relationship so I don't recommend telling her this. This will make her see you as needy, creepy and desperate. All of these are qualities of weak men. Women aren't attracted to weakness.

I honestly think she lied because of fear. She was afraid telling me the truth would change our conversation of getting back together.

So then she could be lying they didn't have sex also. She could be lying that she wasn't really feeling it with him. You know she wanted back in the relationship with you and thus lied about that night with him, at least about his time of departure. You just said, in essence, " she lied to get what she wanted". So now you know she's willing and able to do that. What about down the road? What else will she lie about when attempting to get something she wants? Don't all previously successful lies make future lies that much easier and guilt-free? I would argue that they do.

and other than the story about when he left, has given me no reason to think she's dishonest or untrustworthy. She's not lacking integrity, she's just perhaps lacking a clear understanding of boundaries.

No reason at all to think she's untrustworthy? Not even her reaching out to him out of the clear blue?

You're sticking a halo over her head and giving her the innocence of a pre-teen if you think she's so naive that she doesn't understand what people do when there is attraction. When a man hits up a woman online or via text, he's not trying to be her good ole' buddy. Conversely, when a woman initiates conversation she's opening the door to further communication and gauging his interest. Again, ANY mention of this being innocent "friendliness" is pure, gaslighting nonsense. Men and women (where there is attraction, mind you) are not designed for platonic relationships. Years and years of evolution have programmed people who are attracted to fuck. All the build-up to that can be written off as friendship or politeness or innocent chit-chat but it ain't that at all. It's the song leading up to the dance. Period.

My initial advice was to walk. You don't want to do that and I get it. I was there and I know it's not easy to walk away from someone you love and are heavily invested in.

Seriously man, if you're going to stay you're going to have to be covert. If you spill your guts about the drive-by and knowing she texted him recently, she's going to lose attraction for you and probably gravitate more towards this guy or possibly another one. Hang in there and wait it out if you must. Don't tip your hand. It sucks to be in investigative mode again and that's why I said walk. I just refuse to do that again so I'd cut bait if I were you. I'm not you but I've been where you're at and I can only tell you what I know DOESN'T work, and it's definitely not to show insecurity or weakness in any shape or form.

Good luck to you. I hope she proves herself. Only you will know if she's good long-term material.

[This message edited by Wisedup at 3:07 PM, September 19th (Tuesday)]

Southbound,

I totally agree with the frank but cordial talk. Neither of you are starry-eyed teenagers, you both know how the real world works.

In explaining to her that her proactive contacting of another man that she dated, now that you and her are 'together', gives you a bad feeling because of your past experiences of betrayal, you are not being unreasonable, or 'controlling'. Asking her why she chose to do it is not unreasonable. She is with you, what does she need to be chasing him for, even if it is for seemingly innocent reasons? Effectively, it is keeping that contact alive. She needs to consider why she feels the need to do that, and if it makes you uncomfortable, she really should bear that in mind if she has genuine feelings for you. If you don't explain that it makes you uncomfortable, and ask if she would be willing to stop, then you are going to be like a reformed alcoholic sitting on a couch while their partner chug-a-lugs a bottle of wine.

The real issue with these situations is that people find it hard to know how to phrase or frame such a discussion, and sometimes - worst of all - it comes out in an angry outburst after months of saying nothing. Do not be accusatory, but do not play down the element of keeping that contact alive. She needs to see the significance of her choosing to do that, after reconciling with you and telling you that she has no interest in the guy. Her reaching out to him indicates that she feels 'something' for him, because otherwise she would be indifferent to him, and would not have made the effort. Now, that does not mean the 'something' is deeply dark or related to a furtive relationship; the question is more one of 'why bother at all?' Why keep the connection alive?

And if she says you are being paranoid, there is nothing to it, etc, etc, then you can explain that because of your past experiences, you need to have security in a relationship. You don't need to justify it, we are who we are, and if she wants to be with you, she needs to understand that you are not comfortable with her maintaining contact with guys she has dated.

Also, you definitely need to bring up the night of the 'midnight' date, and explain that you know better. In fact, if you passed the house and he was still there at 3.30, and you didn't see him leave, he may have been there longer. In a way, that's not an issue, you weren't together, but as another poster has said, the issue is the fact that she lied about it (even if it was because she was minimising in hopes of not wrecking the two of you getting back together). In raising this night, I think it is important that you say something along the lines of, "We weren't together, you were a free agent, and if you slept with him, you slept with him. I understand why you said he left at midnight, and why you denied sleeping with him, but what I need to feel secure with you is honesty."

I think the way to frame it is that you are not accusing her of doing anything 'bad', but that you need to explain to her what you need to feel secure in a relationship, and why her reaching out to the guy makes you uncomfortable. That is not being unreasonable, it is one person communicating their needs to another. But do keep it cordial, and loving, and tell her what she means to you. That you do not want to see your relationship with her follow the same route as others you have been in. That it means a lot to you. Framed like that, it is positive, hopeful, and makes her feel loved, rather than the proverbial bad guy.

You have already discussed orbiting, so I think she will grasp what you are getting at. The worst thing to do is say nothing when you feel uncomfortable. Things just build up and fester that way. And if she loves you, she will not want you feeling uncomfortable.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever to M1965 but bringing rationality into something as primitive and unconscious as attraction is futile. What he wrote made complete sense. 100% of it. In a perfect world, having this conversation would make her see the light and swoon over your concern regarding your relationship. If this conversation was dialogue in a Hollywood movie, it'd be an instant classic and the template by which all the ladies would want their men to behave and communicate. Trouble is, this sort of thing rarely, if ever, works. Almost without fail, this type of heart-wrenching honesty has the opposite effect from what is intended.

She's hitting up a guy who she at least went on one date with, that you know of. She's already lied about how long he stayed over and I'd bet the farm she lied about having sex with him. That said, you were broken up so the issue isn't physical infidelity. The issue is gauging her honesty, which she's already flunked, and her level of commitment to you, which remains to be seen.

So what's more attractive to her? A laid-back guy that she thought was cool enough to have a fling with, who's essentially ignored her since, a guy who she has to throw a line out to in order to see if he's still interested.....or a guy who she's with, who is being VERY open about his insecurities in the relationship, who has been burned before, is being honest about his fears, is essentially asking her to pretty please don't talk to other guys cause it makes him feel bad and hurts his little feelings....

I don't mean to be insensitive, I really don't. But these are the laws of attraction. They always have been and they always will be.

If Southbound was years and years into a marriage, I'd probably say, "yeah, spill your guts". They'd be in MC and getting it all out there. But he's still just one year in, and with one breakup with her already under his belt. He needs to play his cards close to the vest. He's still in the vetting process as to whether or not she's trustworthy and committed. Whether he realizes it or not, she's still vetting him too, but there's a different set of criteria she's looking for. She wants to see if he's emotionally strong and confident. Him laying it all out there like what's being suggested is going to cause her attraction to plummet. I can just about guarantee it.

Lay low. Trust but verify. Give her enough rope to hang herself. You shouldn't have to TELL anyone you're not comfortable with them talking to an ex. Everybody on planet Earth damn well knows they wouldn't like it and that they shouldn't be doing it either. Some eloquent, rational conversation to that effect is pointless and will dry her right up.

Southbound, I thought it might be pertinent to put your situation in SI (Surviving Infidelity) terms that you may not yet be aware of.

Her (possible) attraction for the other man is what people here call "the fog". The fog is limerance and it's irrational. The betrayed spouse's attempts to quash it are usually futile. It's like a dad telling his teenage daughter not to see that no-good Jenkins boy down the street! He's trouble! What dad just did was light a fire under that little girl's ass and made certain her attraction for that boy would not only not waver, but that it would probably intensify.

Any discussion about your feelings and commitment to her can otherwise be seen here as what's known as the "pick-me dance". It's widely accepted here that this dance does not work to bring back a wayward. Not once. Not ever. It prompts the wayward to feel less attraction and more disrespect for their betrayed partner, thereby justifying their continued wayward behavior.

I think we can all acknowledge here that your situation is much different than others on this site in that any possible physical relations happened outside of you two being together. That all said, you've been through infidelity before and you don't want to go down that path again. I don't blame you. We can also all acknowledge that she most likely isn't cheating with this guy now but that opening communication with him is a very slippery slope.

What I've said so far about attraction is my opinion but it's also backed up by laymen and scholars alike, especially if you adhere to theories of evolutionary psychology like I do. Relationships between men and women aren't always rational. In fact, the only rational parts of relationships are the the logistics, the security, the social standing, etc. The rest is nature. I'm sure you've watched nature's tendencies in the wild and you know it isn't pretty.

For what it's worth, I really am on your side in this and want you to succeed. That success is hopefully verifying your gf is worthy of your devotion. Another form of success in your situation is ejecting an unworthy person from your life if needed, and as quickly as possible. I hope you enjoy the former success rather than the latter one.

I have a lot to think about between now and later tonight when I go over to her house. Last two replies have me somewhat torn. Wisedup and M, I hear what both of you are saying. M1965 post resonates with the idealist and mature wiser "grown up" in me, Wisedup's with the cynical and 'smarter from my mistakes' side of me.

Wised - I appreciate the pertinent items. Thanks. Unfortunately or fortunately, I'm quite familiar with the pick me dance, limerance, the fog, etc. I may not have many posts but I've been registered here for a while for a reason. Two reasons actually. A dishonest and weak ex-wife, and a supremely narcissistic ex girlfriend.

So no, I have no desire to go down that road again. I'm also familiar with the concept of being fully committed to walking away if that's what it takes. I would hate to lose this woman, she is so so many things that I haven't been able to find before. But I have learned there are plenty of others out there and my happiness comes only from me. I can be happy without her if necessary.

I've got a few hours to decide how to approach this. But thanks everyone for their viewpoints. Exactly why I posted, wanted some other smart eyes on my situation.

However, on a different note, if there's any proof to what damage opening up that line of communication can possibly cause, here it is. Not once, not one single time have either of them liked a social media post of the other since all this went down.

I know, I know. Social media. Fb likes and instagram likes, mean nothing, it's trivial, etc etc. I hear you. It's mostly meaningless, slightly childish, and 99% of the time, inconsequential.

But the behavior I saw for over a month BEFORE our breakup was them doing this dance of picture liking footsie (maybe more, I don't know) And now, not long after her courtesy text that opened up communication, he is suddenly quite free with liking her posts again. Even if me and/or my daughter is tagged in the picture (bc that never stopped him before either). 3 in the past week. One, several days after she put it up, meaning he most likely had to go back and look for it specifically.

Maybe, just maybe it is all on the up and up, and he's being a friendly guy. Highly doubtful though. This is what orbiters do. Totally plausibly deniable "what? it was just an IG like". I can hear it now. But this is why you don't cross that boundary of communication with exes or flings when you're in a relationship with someone you tell that you love every single day. And you especially don't cross it when that person is the only source of friction the two of you have had.

She sent him a signal. And he seems to have reacted to it.

Sigh.

I'm glad my scars have taught me what to look for and how to protect myself. Dating in today's world, especially at my age, is so fraught with danger. Everyone comes with some kind of baggage. But I will walk if I have to. I'm not willing to be super-detective anymore. More important ways to spend my time.