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Emotionless Infidelity Part 4

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veryhurt2018 posted 8/20/2018 09:40 AM

But again, you are so new at this new life. Some here on SI have talked about taking over seven years to get to some place of relative comfort and joy, of feeling basically"recovered." There are members in my weekly support group who say they are now feeling better--after ten or more years. It' quite an individual thing but I think any time less than a year would be very unusual.

Marji - it scares me that it could take 10 years, but I do know that because some people in my support group have been there for about 6 years. I know its a long haul and to be honest, I'm still not positive we're going to make it, but I'm willing to give it a try. WS thinks for sure we're going to get through this.

The thing that I struggle with is that he has a lot of hurt and pain too, which kind of pisses me off. He says he stuffed it down for so long and now that it's out, it's very painful. I told my mom and dad and my brother and sis-in-law, and he still has to face them which he's freaking out about. My dad says he's not sure if he can forgive him, although before this, they had a VERY close relationship. We go away for the holidays with my whole family every year (this year we're going to Costa Rica) so he'll have to see them then.

veryhurt2018 posted 8/20/2018 12:06 PM

[This message edited by veryhurt2018 at 12:12 PM, August 20th (Monday)]

DevastatedDee posted 8/20/2018 14:46 PM

Veryhurt, nope.

The big thing that we have to get past is that he is still "blaming me" for this and saying regularly that our sex life was in a "rut" and this is why he turned to prostitutes. Very painful to hear, even though I know deep down that it's not true. I just keep on wondering if I had given him more sex, if this would have happened. He's right, our sex life has changed, but that doesn't give him the permission to do what he did.

That is a load of bullshit. Mine tried that on me, that we'd gotten in a rut. Less than a year married, a rut? Let me tell you about this rut. I wanted sex all the time. One of my absolute favorite things was to give him oral. I'd tease him regularly and tried to get him to be a bit more adventurous. Went out and bought toys and lingerie to try and mix things up for him. Sounds awful, doesn't it? What a horrible sex life he was facing with me.

The reality is that I was all those things, but he was turning me down more and more. He would be too tired. He would be unable to perform. I upped my game a number of times, but about 6 months into it, the rejection was breaking my heart and spirit so much that I quit trying so hard. I just wound up feeling rejected and unattractive. I didn't know he was visiting prostitutes and jerking off to porn like a madman. But he said that we were "taking one another for granted". Most men would have had a blast with what I was offering. I'm sure that your WH was not exactly trying to fire up your bedroom either. I'm just going to assume that you didn't come home to rose petals on the bed, candles lit and dinner made for you or anything else to work on the "rut".

Bullshit, Veryhurt. It's all denial and blame and lies and gaslighting and bullshit. Not one iota of this is your fault and deep down he knows it. He's trying to hand you some of the guilt and blame and that is appalling.

marji posted 8/20/2018 16:13 PM

VH I know we all use the phrase "getting through this" but I suspect it doesn't really apply since this kind of double life and degenerate use of prostitutes, the long term living a lie, is not a crisis or challenging event. We "get through" our child's high fever, their chicken pox or strep throat; we get through the stress of a major move of home or change of occupation or employment. But I don't think we "get through" their sickness. What we need do is process the trauma their sickness and our learning of it has caused.

But maybe this is all just semantics and it's really about coming to some level of peace, of serenity and the ability to just feel good again. The women I know who say they are not sorry they stayed, say they basically feel ok; but they still need to come to meetings; they still have daily thoughts and they never have the same level of ease or trust they had before. Life is different.

You say you still don't know if you and your H are going to make it--Im taking that to mean you don't know if you are going to stay in the M. Im thinking how in the world could you know when you are only a few months out. I was just coming out of intense shock at 4 months.

Not sure why your H is so sure about things. That's a bit puzzling. I hope he is not taking you and your love and your goodness for granted.

[This message edited by marji at 4:15 PM, August 20th (Monday)]

TexasBroken posted 8/20/2018 21:20 PM

Went to counseling today. Sat in the waiting room for 15 whole minutes before I gently tapped on the door. I was trying so hard to be patient because her "in session" sign was up.
I just kept picturing her comforting a very distraught client and I would interrupt.
I knock on the door.....she opens it with a smile....we tell her we are going to have to reschedule because we need to go get our daughter. She steps out and I notice she was alone in her office.....she totally forgot we were scheduled. She said it must not have saved when she put it on her calendar.
*deep sigh*
Now the search for another therapist. I'm trying not to take that as a sign.

IdiotMe posted 8/20/2018 22:33 PM

Veryhurt, nope.
The big thing that we have to get past is that he is still "blaming me" for this and saying regularly that our sex life was in a "rut" and this is why he turned to prostitutes. Very painful to hear, even though I know deep down that it's not true. I just keep on wondering if I had given him more sex, if this would have happened. He's right, our sex life has changed, but that doesn't give him the permission to do what he did.

That is a load of bullshit. Mine tried that on me, that we'd gotten in a rut. Less than a year married, a rut? Let me tell you about this rut. I wanted sex all the time. One of my absolute favorite things was to give him oral. I'd tease him regularly and tried to get him to be a bit more adventurous. Went out and bought toys and lingerie to try and mix things up for him. Sounds awful, doesn't it? What a horrible sex life he was facing with me.

The reality is that I was all those things, but he was turning me down more and more. He would be too tired. He would be unable to perform. I upped my game a number of times, but about 6 months into it, the rejection was breaking my heart and spirit so much that I quit trying so hard. I just wound up feeling rejected and unattractive. I didn't know he was visiting prostitutes and jerking off to porn like a madman. But he said that we were "taking one another for granted". Most men would have had a blast with what I was offering. I'm sure that your WH was not exactly trying to fire up your bedroom either. I'm just going to assume that you didn't come home to rose petals on the bed, candles lit and dinner made for you or anything else to work on the "rut".

Bullshit, Veryhurt. It's all denial and blame and lies and gaslighting and bullshit. Not one iota of this is your fault and deep down he knows it. He's trying to hand you some of the guilt and blame and that is appalling.

I agree with every word here.

I got tired of initiating sex as there was nothing in it for me and he never tried. Not even once. I would have been THRILLED but he had me convinced he had erectile dysfunction and I thought I was being respectful of his medical problem.

Shocked123 posted 8/22/2018 12:20 PM

Idiotme,
Don't feel stupid. My H told me he was tired, anxious, too old for that kind of thing, put it off to tomorrow...
We had sex maybe 10 times in 10 years and I never caught on to his regular visits to massage parlours. He still maintains that he only had Handjobs and a few blowjobs (which he claims he didn't like), but I doubt it stopped at that.
Idiotme, if you're an idiot, then so am I.

IdiotMe posted 8/22/2018 13:52 PM

Idiotme,
Don't feel stupid. My H told me he was tired, anxious, too old for that kind of thing, put it off to tomorrow...
We had sex maybe 10 times in 10 years and I never caught on to his regular visits to massage parlours. He still maintains that he only had Handjobs and a few blowjobs (which he claims he didn't like), but I doubt it stopped at that.
Idiotme, if you're an idiot, then so am I.

Shocked,

That's what I don't get about any of this and I probably never will. These men have women at home that would do what they want for free, yet they chose to go get off with some diseased skank? I'm much cuter than any of those women, am fun, yet I get nothing? I asked him if it would be ok if I went and found myself a F-buddy and he didn't like that idea at all. As a matter of fact, it visibly angered him.

I don't want to be Mommy. I want a husband, not another kid.

Superesse posted 8/22/2018 16:38 PM

I don't want to be Mommy. I want a husband, not another kid.

IM, Shocked, All: count me in, too; I joined the Instant Mommy Club the day after our wedding, I do believe.

At the time, I blamed it on his actual mother and father, who insisted on rooming with us for a month after the wedding, insisted on spending 24 hours a day in our company or sleeping in our house, except for the actual night of the wedding, thanks Mom & Dad. Two weeks after the wedding, when we all went on a "honeymoon" trip across country, we checked into adjoining motel rooms, and his mother told me to keep the connecting door open, "so I can check on you two..." Hahahaha....YUCK!! That really made my stomach crawl, but my new hubby thought nothing of it. WTF?! I asked him if he didn't think that was some kind of sick joke? Nope, he thought she was just trying to be "cute."

By the time they left, six weeks after the wedding, I thought perhaps his whole subconscious Mommy had gotten permanently imprinted on his brain, because he started to change, right before my eyes, acting like he was his "Dad" or alternately like he was back home with them, and I was the Mom. It was weird, but I didn't understand....

Until after D-Day in October 2002, when I quizzed him for any memory of Childhood Sex Abuse (as 81% of sex addicts have reported CSA), I discovered that his mother had committed actual physical or emotional incest with him from his youngest days, right through high school. Also his grandfather. A messed up family, for sure. He left home as soon as he was eligible to join the service at 18, to get away from that environment. Of course, he never admitted that was one of the reasons; he left for more "opportunity." But I put it together that, by leaving when he did, he never had a "family" environment "at home," again, until they showed up for our wedding! All the years before we got together, he was a traveling man who visited prostitutes "from time to time." No living with a girlfriend, during those 18 years as a solo guy.

I also put this together, using Classical Conditioning theories (and not explaining them very well, apologies in advance to you who are better trained!):

Where do married couples usually share our sexual selves?

In "The Home."

"The Home" is also where "Mommy" was, when they were a child. So all men have to work through that paired association.

But in my SAWH's case, "Mommy" sexually exploited and abused him - in "The Home." Double whammy. Researchers have found that if Sexual Abuse occurred, it generally happened in "The Home." Incest perpetrators are most often close family members, by definition, not strangers. So I think this is how "The Home" could become paired with aversive memories of Sexual Abuse.

So IF sex with "Us" ("Not Mommy") has unfortunately become associated with "The Home" (now the conditioned stimulus), then when they walk into "The Home," and see "Us," their unconscious incest history may trigger a sort of parellel reaction to "Us" as if towards "Mommy Dearest," through a process called "Higher Order Conditioning"

It's probably harder yet for them to keep the focus on "Us" if we are ourselves Mothers (I had no children, and this still happened.) One example: not long after his parents went back home to their country, I suggested a sexy shower together, and he freaked out, looked so shocked and said "WE DON'T DO THAT!!!" WTF, again!? Well, it turned out his mother used to come into the bathroom and help him "clean his penis" (she said) while he took a bath - at age 5!!! So I think my SAWH had a lot of "ghosts" to put out of his mind....and I guess we got off to a bad start, as we had not lived together prior to getting married and having them within earshot...

I am not trying in any way to excuse this sick behavior, I'm just trying to shed whatever light I can for someone else, based on some of the crap I had to wade through after my marriage blew up!

Of course, this Mommy/Sexy woman split could be caused by a lot of things, maybe Borderline Personality Disorder, or something, but it seems to be a common theme with these men. Also, Google the term Covert Incest.

sami1234 posted 8/24/2018 07:58 AM

My WH had an appointment with a specialist this week. Upon speaking with my best friend, who knows of his dalliances, I said he had an appointment with his "pediatrician." To which my friend said "that' probably on point!"

Before Dday I had heard divorced women say they didn't want another child they wanted a husband so they got divorced. I have to say I now know exactly what they mean.

burn posted 8/24/2018 14:36 PM

I will second that part about wanting a husband, not another child! I continue to struggle with that part where I have to give instructions and be understanding when he acts like a child and has the emotional maturity of a child.

I'm dreading going back to MC this weekend after a month away due to vacation schedules. I hate every session, but at least she seems to be able to make some progress with him dealing with his issues.

Generally, things have been good with us and my roller coaster has been pretty low key for a while. We went on a kid free vacation this month, which was nice and we also replaced my wedding ring that was stolen last year when I wasn't wearing it. It made him really happy that I asked for a new ring. I'm planning on getting him a new one soon, his old one still has whore cooties on it. I think I can finally see a healing process under way (with a long way to go yet). I still have that underlying current of distrust or fear that its going to happen again, but the flashbacks and triggers are less frequent and less intense. So, that's progress, right?

marji posted 8/27/2018 20:02 PM

Rebplay Just wondering if and hoping you are alright. Maybe you mentioned taking. a bit of an SI vacay but I can't remember.

Today is third year d-day anniversary. Was still serious lying about time--not one year but at least 10--but the basic trauma causing info was given three years ago today. Interestingly enough this is the first year Im feeling it but I thnk that's because grandson was born just one week prior two years ago and that was all absorbing. Also three years seems like a big deal.

I think you had a similar time line though not as thorough an activity story.

Again, I hope you're dong really well. You sure deserve a good summer and fall.

Shocked123 posted 8/27/2018 20:08 PM

Marji, Can I ask you something?
Is your husband remorseful? Do you have any interest in reconciling?
You probably have the closest story to mine and sometimes I feel that I am too kind, too understanding.
Or maybe I'm just plain tired and its easier to simply accept what happened.
I don't know anymore

marji posted 8/27/2018 22:04 PM

Hi Shocked Yes, I think he's remorseful. I don't think in terms of reconciliation since that word suggests parties agreeing to reconcile their differences. We didn't have differences; he was leading a double life of regular, long term betrayal. But I am still here after three years and I think about separating far less than I did in year one or year two.

I don't think I really accept this new reality. Perhaps I never will. It was creepy and sick. I don't think in terms of forgiveness; just was too long and too much but I am courteous and generally we get along and he is trying to be a very good person and husband. I don't feel forgiveness but I do feel appreciation when I see signs of genuine change.

I have a good IRL SANON group; my H is technically not an SA but he was acting out habitually and so I feel the group is appropriate. We've also been working with a counselor these three years.

Shocked, I think that it's good that you are able to be kind and understanding; I think it would just add to the awful crime if their choice, their habits, their sickness robbed us of our humanity.

Here's to your strength and your goodness. And yes, it's very tiring but it gets easier. And there really is more to life than them and what they did. We all have to make sure we're open to all the rest that's good--friends, family, pets, a day of good weather, good music, a funny remark; a nice new something or other for the house or ourselves or a loved one.


Shocked123 posted 8/28/2018 07:38 AM

Marji, you have a way with words that calms me down, more so than our MC, lol!
You are right, I need to look at the big picture and appreciate other things/people in my life.
I also need to rediscover old hobbies and interests. Focusing on this situation has exhausted me. I too think less and less about separating and divorce and concentrate more on fixing the marriage which, unlike yours, was not always good. I thought it was but he felt differently but never told me so.
We have an MC this week when I will suggest that I take a step back from the sessions and that he concentrate on his issues (there are many). I fear what will come out in his IC which could put an end to our marriage but if during those sessions he discovers that he acted out simply because he no longer loves me then it's best to know.
I may never know what led him to his filthy behaviour these past 10 years. Only he does.
I do know that it somehow got past me and that's what I need to work on. How could I have not seen what was going on and how could I have accepted a sub-par marriage. Friends even pointed out his odd behaviour towards me and I never did anything but ask him politely a few times! I just thought we had hit a rocky patch.

A 10 Year rocky patch? When I think of it now....

Thanks for listening, everyone.

marji posted 8/28/2018 13:14 PM

Shocked many if not most of us wonder how we could have been so blind. We wonder how they were able to fool us. The answer is we were trusting and all sorts of other things were going on in our lives. We had many things to attend to besides them.

I just read your Sunday post where you say your H was depressed and stressed. Please know that SAs are typically depressed. They typically feel angry, resentful, needy. Emotional anorexia is common. It is very common for SAs to lose interest in their wives. They are often not interested in intimacy. So those feelings that your H had do not contradict SA anymore than repeated visits to the parlors prove SA.

It's a complicated condition that's basically determined subjectively. It might be helpful for your H to take the online tests that are free and reliable. If he answers very honestly you might get a better idea of the best way to move forward.

As Lionne has said many times, living with an active addict, one who is still a slave to his habit, is soul crushing. But some SAs are actively engaged in their recovery. My H is not technically an SA but he does have serious psychological issues and works the SA program and I feel safer knowing that and I do see some positive changes. I also take some degree of comfort in what I think his sponsor try's to encourage.

If you are afraid of you H resuming his habit you might come to feel safer if you saw him working with a recovery group. Good that the MC is able to make a diagnosis, many MCs are not trained or experienced to have that ability but you might want to discuss additional programs that might benefit both you and your H.


.

IdiotMe posted 8/29/2018 05:42 AM

Well, I saw the therapist last week. I couldn't even really talk about it until now because I was kind of angry, frustrated, and really didn't know what to think.

I told him my story, and of course he was sympathetic to me, and he basically asked me what I wanted to do. And I told him to stay together since my husband has been making an effort and has expressed to me that he wants to stay together. So, the main focus of this session was to give me strategies of how to stay together. No mention of him treating my husband. I mentioned to him that my husband did not want to see a therapist and he said "Yeah, I'm sure he doesn't....it would be highly embarrassing to him". The therapist is excellent, truly, in every situation we've spoke with him about, but I wonder if this isn't a topic he wants anything to do with?

I think my husband needs treatment for his depression and anxiety. What sort of treatment? I don't know. But his work is becoming even more stressful with more hours (one of his colleagues had a heart attack and is out for 6 weeks). He has been talking to me A LOT more, is now returning to me for support again, and has been a lot nicer and more involved, but I still feel like we're just pretending. He wants it all to be like nothing happened and something big did happen and I'm not over it. And I don't trust him. Not for a second. And my inability to trust him, greatly affects my life. I used to be able to leave here for a few days and go out of town, but now, I feel like if I leave, 10 minutes after I'm out the door, he's going to dash off to the massage place. Is that really going to happen? Hell if I know. But I don't want to leave and find out.

See? I have to babysit him forever.

I've asked him again if he's going to get tested for STD's and he says yes, yet I've seen no evidence of this happening. And I'm not sure what to do to prompt him to get it done. I suspect an ultimatum will have to be made as it's the only thing that prompts action from him but WHY can't he just be a responsible adult? Nope, he's too damn lazy for that. And now that his work has become crazy again, he has a legitimate excuse. But what about me? I'd actually like to know if we're ever going to have an intimate relationship again. Because if that's never going to happen, what the hell am I doing here?

I don't know. It's all frustrating and I woke up at 4:30am unable to sleep because of bad dreams. I should probably find another therapist that will focus on my thoughts and feelings more than kissing my husbands ass. The therapist said that threats do not make for a good marriage, but my husband having his fun stick manipulated by trashy whores doesn't make for a good marriage either. Ugh.

Shocked123 posted 8/29/2018 09:59 AM

Idiot me, Why aren't you getting tested?
Are you saying there has been no attempt at intimacy since discovering his habit?
He is living without any sexual activity when just a little while ago he was getting it regularly? Why couldn't he go without then and can now, especially with a willing partner?
I would ask these questions.

Mothership posted 8/29/2018 12:22 PM

3chimom. Hi, I just joined today. I really understand your pain. I am newly married (just over a year) and my husband told me back in March that he has been with prostitutes 5 times since we got married. Last week he said he's been again 2 times. He only does it under the influence of cocaine, but it still hurts like hell. I took him back the first time because apart from this big turdburger he's dropped, we're soulmates. I love him to bits. He keeps going back to coke though and I keep begging him to tell me immediately if he does anything stupid. But he never does. He always hides it then feels super guilty and tells me months later. We had sex every day when we were first married, then last October was when he went to see a hooker and since then he's never wanting to be intimate. Then I found out and our sex life is pretty much dead (he never initiates anymore, possibly out of guilt)... He says he can't stand the women he 'uses'... he is so off his face he doesn't even care what they look like. He never has full sex with them as he says that its a special part of our relationship. He literally wants to jack his load off (sorry, his words) because he is high and horny.

I don't know how I feel anymore. He left for a week, but was desperate to come back because he missed me, he's back now. I was in a bit of denial last week (I've sussed out all the stages now, I'm a pro! - also my first husband cheated twice on me after 17 years of marriage... kind of know what to expect now)

Anyway, waffle over. Just nice to share x

luvmykids posted 8/29/2018 16:15 PM

Mothership, Sorry you are joining us but since you have only been married 1 year, and your WH uses cocaine and has been cheating on you with prostitutes Get tested for STD's and head to a divorce attorney if I were you. He isn't going to take responsibility for what he did and is just going to say he was high.

Then I found out and our sex life is pretty much dead (he never initiates anymore, possibly out of guilt

Maybe because he prefers emotionless sex and he is still seeing prostitutes. My WH did that.

He never has full sex with them as he says that its a special part of our relationship.

Cheaters are liars so don't believe anything he says. It really doesn't matter what sex he is having with them. He is cheating. Period.

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