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Emotionless Infidelity Part 4

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sami1234 posted 2/14/2019 07:57 AM

Somber it looks like you haven't been on here very long, I am not sure when your Dday(s) occurred. I know in the beginning I was convinced there was no way my WH could love me, having done the things that he did. I now know that was wrong. He does love me, but, he is/was very messed up. Not that "love" is the thing that fixes everything and makes it all right, it is not. AND not that I am staying because I "love" him either. I do believe that we can absolutely love and care for someone and not be able to be in a relationship with them because it is, or their behavior is, unhealthy. So that is what I go by, behavior.

In the beginning of therapy my WH tried to place blame on me for his behavior, but his IC quickly nipped that in the bud. I see my WH as a caring, loving, but deeply flawed, individual. I even see the FOO issues that got him to that point. Now, what he does with all of this going forward is of utmost importance to the relationship. He tells me that "other guy" who acted out is gone. I have no evidence that he has been acting out since then, but I constantly verify that. He also travels for work extensively so, who knows?

I am aware of so much more than I ever was in our decades marriage now. I do so wish I were still so blissfully ignorant, but then, I suppose that was just living a lie. Why do I stay? Many reasons, but I make that decision every single day and allow myself to change my mind at any time. My WH wanted to renew vows after Dday and I said no. Our MC said it is usually helpful to do that when these things happen. I said no way. This will be a daily decision and I don't want to hear him make a commitment that he can't keep. That has empowered me, to do absolutely everything I need to do, or not do, to verify his behavior and keep myself emotionally safe.

Cally1975 posted 2/14/2019 17:34 PM

I am new to this board. I had posted in the just found out. It was suggested that many on this post could relate to what I am going through.
The husband and I have been together for 11 years. I just found out last week he had created user names on hooking up dating sites. Also created a secret e-mail. I secretly got into these. I haven't found any evidence of him messaging anyone or them to him. In fact he didn't even pay for the sites to be able to message but he could look. He created a fake facebook under an alias name. Didn't even activate it fully but created it. By the way these sites were looking for a tranny. He claims he isn't bisexual that it was a fetish. I was horrified to say the least. He was so so ashamed I knew this.
In addition I found 2 addresses in his map app for massage parlors. At first he said just because an address is in there doesn't mean he went. Now with prodding he says he did go a couple times but ONLY got a massage. He said he didn't have nerve to do a happy ending. I am like okay we have insurance!! That covers 12 massages a year. Why the hell would you keep this a secret. Why would you want to go to a semen infested table to lay down for a massage with a lady that isn't even a licensed massage therapist. He says the only reason he went there is they were open late and he works late.
I know he is lying. I am an emotional wreck. Like my whole life fell out in front of me. It's a challenge to put one foot in front of the other.
He keeps swearing on the lives of everyone we love that he didn't get a happy ending. That he only looked at dating sites. He never hooked up. He is saying without any hesitation he will take a lie detector test. He is also stating he will go get tested for STD's to prove he is clean.
But yet I don't believe him. There is something in the gut unless I am wrong. Still wouldn't make things right!!
Also one more point....a massage place that you take a chance on a felony and going to jail??!!
I am so thankful to have found this board. I am grateful. I don't have anyone I can talk to at least yet. I am to ashamed. I mean prostitutes at parlors, tranny dating sites etc

Falling posted 2/15/2019 12:18 PM

sami1234 my WH admitted to being addicted to masterbating before he even admitted to having sex with anyone else. He used this fact to make it seem like he was being open and honest with me. I don't know why a person needs to hide a high sex drive all their life, and indeed I don't know if he actually would want sex every day, at least not with the same person ie me. I think it's part high sex drive and partly that porn is highly addictive and he already has a compulsion disorder. I've come to the conclusion that I'm less bothered about it if he is open with me about it. When it's this dirty little secret, then it makes a woman feel gross I think.

He tells me that "other guy" who acted out is gone.

My WH also says this. What if it's what they ALL say? Just part of a desperate script to get us to believe them?

Falling posted 2/15/2019 12:28 PM

Cally1975 I'm sorry for what you're going through. I'm only 6 months on from d-day and I remember those initial feelings so well. Please look after yourself whilst you try to muddle through to find out what has gone on.

At first he said just because an address is in there doesn't mean he went. Now with prodding he says he did go a couple times but ONLY got a massage. He said he didn't have nerve to do a happy ending. He says the only reason he went there is they were open late and he works late.

I'm sorry to say that this screams TT to me. I would bet that there is more that happened than he is currently letting on. My WH did this for a month before I found proof of some things and he finally admitted the truth about them. It's so very cruel but they all do it, dragging it out and hoping you'll stop digging. Apparently many men say they are happy to do a lie detector test and then confess at the last minute when they realise it is actually going ahead.

Or maybe this is my post-infidelity viewpoint. Maybe he really didn't do anything? I would listen to your gut. I wish I had.

Give yourself lots of time. Are either of you having counselling?

sami1234 posted 2/15/2019 13:33 PM

Cally1975 saw your post yesterday and thought, yes, she should be here. I am so sorry you are here, but we all know what this is like and you are absolutely NOT alone. I heard so many of the same things from my WH about, didn't finish up, didn't contact them just made an inquiry, always wore a condom...blah blah blah. I don't believe any of that. We never did a polygraph but after Dday almost anything he said that I was able to verify came up as lies. Anything they can cover up they absolutely will. You know what they say...if their mouth is moving...Absolutely he needs to be tested ASAP...so do you. He needs an IC immediately and so do you. Please update us as to how you are doing. Take good care of yourself and put yourself first. The best thing anyone said to me in the beginning was this: "Nothing you did or didn't do, caused him to do this." Please know this is true!

Falling: I do believe however that this "other guy" statement speaks directly to their ability to compartmentalize their life. That's what allows them to do these things and think it has no impact on their relationship, marriage, status as husband, father etc. Most women are not able to compartmentalize like that. And why would he term it an "addiction" to masturbating. That's disturbing. I DO now realize that my WH uses that and, obviously, sex and porn, to numb out and calm himself down. That is part of an addiction cycle, well known to those who are on the other thread regarding sexual addiction. My WH swears he is not an addict, but the behavior tendencies are absolutely there. I am tired of him hiding it and putting his lubricant in small hand sanitizer bottles because he thinks I don't know what is in there when he takes it with him. Yes, makes it gross to me as it is to you. My IC asked me if I wanted to have sex with my WH as often as he seems to masturbate...I said NO, I have a life and things to do! HAHA. I am about ready to confront him with that. Then back to the MC we will go.

There is a saying that once you uncover behaviors that were previously hidden, you are most likely only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Sad but true I believe.

hiddenMist posted 2/17/2019 14:17 PM

My WH also says this. What if it's what they ALL say? Just part of a desperate script to get us to believe them?

+3. My ex husband said that too. He would also throw himself in the floor in a crying heap, telling me how sorry he was and how he was a changed man. He cheated again the same day! Lol

Everyone is different but my ex had a character issue-he was hooked on the deception, the secrecy, the attention and thrill of new cooch. I'm sure he wanted to change because it was causing problems, but wanting to change and actually doing it are very different.

Somber posted 2/18/2019 15:27 PM

Sami1234,
It sure feels like a long time. My DD was April 2018; however, I always had suspicions along the way of affairs. I just finally had the proof to shatter his denial and gaslighting ways. Love certainly has nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter if he loves me or if I love him, the behaviour is what is destroying our marriage. You are right, we must go by behaviour as that is the only truth.
Thank you for sharing why you stay. I still find it hard to explain why I stay and am unsure if I really want to or just feel stuck. I tend to spend days (such as the past few days) blissfully ignorant. It gives me a break from it all. I have become comfortable in the ignorance as it is familiar. It is living a lie, but putting in the work to heal myself or hoping for him to heal himself is exhausting.

I like how you explain how you feel empowered by saying no to renewing your vows as you didn't want to have him make an empty commitment. My WH also wanted this from me, he wanted me to sign something committing to give him a year to change. I also said no, I wasn't ready for that and I already committed in our wedding vows so why do I need to do that. It is like he wont bother to change unless I agree to stay. How about prove that you are capable of change and worthy of yet another R.

Somber posted 2/18/2019 15:39 PM

"other guy" statement speaks directly to their ability to compartmentalize their life. That's what allows them to do these things and think it has no impact on their relationship, marriage, status as husband, father etc


I never thought of it this way but the ability to compartmentalize their life makes so much sense. It makes sense to my WH comments such as: I never meant to hurt you, I wasn't thinking of you when it happened...we are in the spouse compartment so not thought of in the sexual acting out compartment. Maybe it is just another excuse but helps make sense of some of it.

Cally1975, I am an emotional mess too. I think we all are but are at different stages of our discovery and healing. One thing I wish I did more of earlier on in my marriage was trusting my gut! It is evident now that my gut was almost always right. So I suggest you trust yours. IC helped me process things at the beginning, it hasn't resolved my problems but has helped me put myself first and work towards healing myself and detaching a bit from my WH.

Oh my, it is so sad to empathize with so many of you but also comforting to know we are not alone.

sami1234 posted 2/19/2019 08:25 AM

hiddenMist: Most people are remorseful for anything they are caught doing wrong. If they aren't there's a whole other personality disorder going on. And there's a whole element of shame that goes along with this, the shame feeds the cycle of covering up, but also adds to the excitement of indulging. When they are found out that shame overrides the physical pleasure of those moments and they become utterly "remorseful." I get it. I think they are all hooked into the deception and thrill, that's what makes this happen.

Somber: yes about the recommitment, our MC even suggested it, said that it helps most couples. I told her that wasn't true for me, that only I decided what would help me. I took a long time totally detaching emotionally and figuring out what I needed to go forward NOT what he needed. Interestingly enough at one of our last sessions he told the MC he had always seen me as "weak" before this, so the MC said "who is the strong one now?" It has definitely changed the relationship. But I know that if I were to leave the lack of trust will spill into any new relationship that I enter. I will be much less likely to commit, or always be checking on my SO because it will always lurk in the back of my mind. Also I no longer believe in pure love, or that romance and a love will conquer all. I guess I live life in reality now. Sad but true. I do say I think it is important to sometimes put the whole thing (infidelity) in a box on a shelf and just live your life, enjoy yourself and your relationship as it is at this moment and heal. (If he is doing the work which mine is.) You can bring that box out at any time

Comparementlization is a big part of this. I absolutely know my WH loves me so much, the difference being my love for him has always kept me from straying. The only way that would work is for him to be able to completely separate what he was doing from our life together. I know he did because he used other names, took off his wedding ring, played another guy. What fun.

Sometimes when I allow myself to wallow in the pit of it all, this thing pops up that says "why am I so special that I shouldn't experience the sting of infidelity." I think we all want to think fairy tales about our partner, about our lives. I did. But I know SO many people on here, and that I know have struggled with infidelity that I've stopped thinking why me? But now more of "why not me?" And better yet, what can I learn from this about myself, and how can I be more of who I want to be? Am I strong to stay? Am I strong only if I leave? I see strength in both, but no matter what happens along the way I will be a better person, and I need him to be a better person or I'm out. Off my soapbox for now...

Cally1975 posted 2/21/2019 12:17 PM

Falling we aren't in counseling yet. I am looking into it here shortly. I told him I also feel he needs IC for himself.
We had a death in the family so that has taken away from looking at therapists for last week and this week.
I really do think and feel in my gut he isn't giving the whole truth. So am expecting more will be revealed. We shall see. My goal is to have the polygraph scheduled next Friday.

Cally1975 posted 2/21/2019 12:22 PM

Sami,
I am so sorry your going through this also. He did get tested and results came back yesterday of all negative. Only positive was H1 type. The herpes 1 type which is cold sores. He has gotten cold sores since he was little. Also his mother gets them all the time to.
Did your husband ever confess to you? I think I may need to change careers and be a PI. I am gaining a lot of experience in this area.

Somber posted 2/21/2019 15:09 PM

Sami,

I see strength in both options as well. However, I feel I am seen as weak staying to my close friends that know about it all. I have a handful of friends now that are aware of what I have been enduring. I meant to keep my circle very small as that is where I have always felt safest. Then I happened to open up to a few more people as I was 100% sure there was no way that I was staying. They don't make me feel this way but I feel like they may think it from some comments on what they think they would do if they were in the same situation. I thought I would have ran away by now but here I am struggling to figure out what to do.

Now I am stuck, still hoping for a miracle. I feel weak, I feel embarrassed and ashamed to stay. Anyone else feel like this??

I wish I didn't let anyone else know so that I can continue to comfortably live a lie.

I really like the visual of putting the infidelity in a box and putting it on the shelf. It does help to take a break from it all and try to enjoy a few moments or days without it consuming my every thought. When that box opens up though, there is so much unresolved pain and empty hope. I just don't know how to deal with it all. I don't really know what I want. I don't know if I can forgive him for all that he has done. I don't know if his efforts are sincere or that if I keep searching I will find more and more hurt. I don't know if there will ever be trust or respect again...

Cally1975 posted 2/22/2019 07:25 AM

Somber,
I am so sorry your going through this also. But glad to hear your putting yourself first. I am slowly learning to try and do this.
I did one step towards that this week. My lap top is on it's last leg. Normally husband and I would discuss big purchases or make decisions and go together. As he was out of town working I sat there thinking man I want/ need a new lap top. So I went and picked one and bought it. I figure with all his cash being pulled out I didn't need to ask for permission or make a decision together at all. It felt very liberating. When he got home he seemed taken back a little. But said nothing other then Oh did you get a new computer?

sami1234 posted 2/22/2019 08:09 AM

Cally1974: Did my WH ever confess? It was only after I found his emails on his computer. Printed everything out in a large file. Photos of these women, dating sites, an email for a private erotic massage...lots of stuff. I put it in a folder with a long letter about how I wanted him out of the house and I would not speak with him for 3 days until we came up with another plan. Through counseling our MC told him he had to tell me "everything" well, who knows. I doubt it. It was like pulling teeth, and hurt that bad too. Just when I thought he had told me everything I would find something else in our financial statements and he had to fess up again! I know there's more. So I don't think it's confessing if you are caught with your hand in the candy jar. Good to hear your WH was tested, I still insist my dr. test me yearly, just for peace of mind.

Somber: my young adult daughter knows WH had "an affair" and makes hints about other women being "strong" who leave their WH and how she would never stay with anyone who cheated. Sometimes I feel I am letting her down but I can't base my decisions on her youthful attitudes. That's really the only person I care about being judged by. I know I have friends that think "how can she stay?" My life, not theirs. I hope that you can try not to think of it in terms of "stuck" but rather think of it as every day you can decide anew to stay or go. That's how I think of it and it feels more like freedom of choice. Also, have a strong/firm plan in case you need to exit suddenly. Do you have that in place? Where would you go, how would you go about it? Try to put some money away if possible?

So something comes to mind. Before all of this happened I never NEVER dreamed MY husband was capable of these sorts of things. These kinds of things happened in the movies (hahaha) OR to people who really were messed up or didn't have their act together. I was so incredibly naive!! Now I know it happens to people who have their act together (at least from looking outside in) who are successful and to others their lives look perfect!! Sooooooo, my IC did said I can never tell my daughter what my WH did, that I should allowed her to think he had a simple affair..and that was that. But then doesn't that propagate the naivete? My parents divorced and I never heard of any infidelity, but what if this is what caused their divorce? What if I had known that my upstanding perfect (to me) father was capable of these things? Would I have been more diligent in my own marriage? Would I have known what signs to look for? Of course I cannot tell my daughter, but I do believe the silence and secrecy creates a cycle of shielding this type of behavior from the light, and that makes me angry. Thoughts?

Shocked123 posted 2/22/2019 20:29 PM

Sami,
You bring up an interesting point about keeping our Hís infidelity from our children. My father cheated on my mother and they remained married. They thought I didnít know but I found out as a young adult. Nobody talked about it and she never said a word, not even on her deathbed. Rugsweeping at its best. My Hís father has an 8 year LTA, rugswept as well.
Youíd think I would have been a little more aware, more perceptive, more suspicious in my marriage. I mean, my father and father in law were cheaters.
I just assumed that because my H and I both lived through infidelity as adult children that he would have never have done this to our marriage.
On the contrary, he was the apple that didnít fall far from the tree.
Now I am faced with wanting to tell my 3 children because I feel it may prevent heartache for them but really, it made no difference in my life. I grew up with it and didnít even see it in my own marriage.
I am saddened that one day I may attend our childrensí weddings and I will worry that they will be hurt by their partner.
I will never feel the excitement and happiness I used to feel for a bride and groom. That innocent love no longer exists for me.
I hope over time I can find it in myself not to be so cynical.


Somber posted 2/23/2019 17:27 PM

Thanks Cally, although I donít think I am putting myself first too much. It is so hard to do! But if we continue to choose us more often I think that helps! So way to go buying yourself a
Laptop!! You deserve it! That must have felt powerful and encouraging.

Sami, your adult daughter knowing of the affair and stating her opinion must be tough to take in. You want to be a good role model but at the same time no one really understands the depths of it until they have endured it themselves. So I get staying and I also get leaving. I donít think one choice is necessarily better than the other at the moment. However, I think I would feel stronger if I made a plan to leave so it wasnít so frightful. In the quiet I have copied tax returns and property financial details. I read books on divorce and how to support children through it. I seeked for and have attained a better position in my field with benefits and a pension. I start that new job in 2 weeks which I think will make me feel less financially dependent. Itís a start...

As for the telling children, Iím not too sure. I think my children are too young to be bothered with adult problems; however, they may never understand why a relationship ends or what not to do in a relationship. To stay amicable with WH as well, I am not sure what would be too much to share and what would cause serious conflict.
I came from divorced parents and I learned on my own by watching my fathers behaviour with girlfriends that he was an unfaithful partner. It was also never spoken of so I always hoped they would reunite. It wasnít until I was an adult (20ís) that my mother shared a few details of his infidelities. I think I knew about it and I knew my mother left him. Yet here I am in the same situation. So I donít know if telling children will help prevent them from making the same mistakes!! What I strongly believe though is that if I was pushed into IC as a child or teenager even, I would have perhaps processed and dealt with the divorce, confusion, infidelities sooner. This may have made me stronger to pick a healthier partner. I feel that I was left with a lot of feelings and no idea what to do with them. I never spoke of it so naturally it appeared that I was fine. I guess I wasnít and history somehow repeated itself. Codependency or what?!? .

[This message edited by Somber at 5:29 PM, February 23rd (Saturday)]

sami1234 posted 2/24/2019 10:57 AM

Honestly I am not as shocked about the infidelity in my M as I am about the emotionless infidelity. That's the part I am having difficult with. That is the part that I thought only happened to people who don't have their act together and would certainly never happen to me. My WH did have one sort of emotionally attached relationship in all this, that's the one I have processed and pretty much put behind me. It is the other stuff (see profile) that I find utterly abhorrent...using people and getting caught up in furthering their dysfunction that I cannot process. That is the part that I feel my daughter should be forewarned about. But, of course I'm not going to do that. As my WH said, he didn't want a relationship, he already had that with me. He did it for crazy sex and to be completely worshipped, no strings attached. He was a narcissist and he's working on his empathy and what I need for a change. I will say he has read books on emotional intelligence, which can be learned, and he is doing better.

Our MC said most women feel the opposite, that they can get past non-emotional affairs much quicker. I guess I'm the outlier on that one. I get the emotional affair, I do not get using people for your own gratification. It sickens me. Does anyone else here get that? Like my MC thinks women get over prostitutes before emotional affairs?

Somber: You are doing all the right things, create your own safety net, I know I have and I know I will be fine no matter what happens so its a tiny slice of piece of mind. Good for you!

Cally1975 IC is SO important for him and for you! My WH said the stupidest things until he went to IC. After IC he realized how self centered he was and even admitted it to me. Be careful with getting into MC too soon though. I don't know how others feel but MC made me feel much more like I had a part in his wayward behavior. I also feel like the MC minimized his betrayal and would say anything to keep us together. I didn't like that. MC's primary job is to protect the marriage, that's not always healthy in the beginning until each person has their own head on straight which is only going to happen through IC. Maybe wait a bit on MC but if you feel the need to go sooner just realize their point of view is to put the M first and you may feel victimized by that. I did. Keep putting yourself first!

Superesse posted 2/24/2019 15:33 PM

sami, all these MC's must have gone through the same training...I heard that EXACT same B.S. too, back in 2002, from our social worker/premarital counselor! To add insult to injury, she tossed that comment out there thinking she was helping me on D-Day, which had JUST HIT during a session in HER office! (I'd asked for a counseling session with her after a month of trickle truth from him. We had been happily married 4 years.....he lied and lied about his EI, but she got him to admit it.)

The pain was indescribable: not only had my husband shown me he was that kind of creep, but our marriage counselor thought it shouldn't be so tough for me to take, as if he were to love AND screw another? Wow!! I could have handled that news better, as when I was single, I'd survived loving and losing my BF to another woman he met; it would have made sense, sad as it would have been. But to "need" to get laid by a hooker the same day as we'd made love? Just...did not compute....and said truly gruesome things to me, about such a man.

So, NO - you are not an outlier! This kind of observation, IMHO, is just outdated B.S. based on social dynamics that may have been true 50 years ago, but today? It shocks me to see how many counselors still think this way!

I second the advice to avoid MC too early, under these circumstances. Based on my fruitless experience with early MC, after we found a male counselor to work with both of us for a year - with no progress for WH - I would look for a trauma-based therapist for you, but try to find a really competent IC for him.

I don't subscribe to the benefit of having him work with a CSAT who is satisfied to focus on tracking "acting out" behaviors, as I have heard some sex addiction counselors do. IC for EI offenders has to help them change at a deeper level than simply halting bad behavior, for someone who uses people sexually in that way. Just my opinion.

sami1234 posted 2/24/2019 17:19 PM

IC for EI offenders has to help them change at a deeper level than simply halting bad behavior,

PREACH!! Thank you Superesse!! I do believe my WH has stopped the bad behaviors and learned to substitute good, positive behaviors that will get the results he wants. This was all through the IC. Ugh...drives me nuts. I still think he hasn't done the deeper work, and probably never will. He doesn't understand why he thinks the way he does, or how he got there, simply that it's "bad" behavior, and that still bugs me. Part of me thinks there's just no "depth" there because he's a problem solver (a lot of men are) so it all boils down to problem/ solution. I don't think like that. I want to know why we do the things we do, what is at the crux of it all...know thyself!!!

Yes, MC during this can be very traumatizing. I called my MC out several times during the process...I wish I had done it more. It really bugged me when she smiled at me and said "but he LOVES you!" Really??? So what!! Like that makes it all ok? I wanted to slap her. Still think the EI type of acting out shows deeper character flaws, terrifying to me.

Cally1975 posted 2/24/2019 22:01 PM

Sami,
Thanks for that tip about MC to early. I am going to take that advice. I really feel he needs IC badly.
I am also like you. I am having a hard time with this enotionless stuff. The massage parlors for him. It just physically makes me sick. It's prostitution and I iust don't understand how someone gets to that point. I mean they would have to have low self esteem.

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