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October 20

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Mene posted 1/1/2020 17:24 PM

Sheís minimising. Thereís more to this. We always hope that there isnít but 99% of the time when adults say they just kissed in an affair situation, it turns out there was full blown sex.

SMSA925 posted 1/1/2020 18:36 PM

Im a pretty black and white thinker. When you get married there is the understanding that you FORSAKE all others for the rest of the marriage. You decide to chose your spouse over everyone else. You will notice all of these are verbs, action words. Now, feelings are feelings. Neither right or wrong, just feelings. Your cheater chose to act on those feelings and chose someone over you. Thats a horrible feeling and can be a deal breaker. What ever the extent of their contact, what I know for certain is if she doesnt get into therapy and find out why she cheated, she will do it again. Life is not some romcon chick flick, this is real and she needs a bucket of cold water dumped on her head.

Unless you decide its a deal breaker. Thats ok, too. No one would blame you. Balls in your court. Good luck.

KingofNothing posted 1/1/2020 19:21 PM

JSpaceman. Man, this is a tough one, because of the pain you are so obviously experiencing now. Yet, itís also a rehash of of the standard tawdry script all these cheaters, men or women, fall back on.

Just on a guess. Did she use: ďI made a mistakeĒ. ďIt just happenedĒ. ďIt wasnít important, youíre the one I want to spend my life withĒ. ďIt was just sexĒ. Any of those? These are classic minimizing excuses. I canít tell you how often these get used. Now your wife may be relying on the excuse that it wasnít physical, only emotional. So she says. The thing is, passionate kissing and embraces are physical. They crossed that boundary rather easily... didnít even think twice. Personally, and I mean this gently, you are foolish to take this at face value. Your wife is trying to minimize the blow and make herself out to be a good person because she ďstopped just shortĒ of full on intercourse. If I were you, Iíd be taking it for granted that this affair was physically sexual. You have no proof of it, except the word of a woman whoís self interest is in maintaining the deception. Think about that. All you have to go on for details is what she is providing. Sheís lied to you before and hid all of this from you. Why take her word now?

Iíll tell you why. You WANT to.

You want to believe the word of that lovely, quirky artistic woman who shared adversity with you when you were young. That woman you trusted to tell you anything, and you thought you could tell anything in return. You want to believe the one person in the universe that has your back, right? Bad news. Youíre addicted to that idea. You are putting her on a pedestal. Believe me (I say this gently), your wife does not deserve to be on a pedestal. Sheís changed... drastically changed. You must come to terms with the notion that the woman you cherish is from the past. Thatís not this woman now. Sheís gone. Even more painful, she might never have existed. This might be the real her. Test question. Could you imagine that wife from your earlier life suggesting an open marriage, or ďtaking a breakĒ from marriage?

BTW, donít even give that idea any consideration if you are seriously interested in saving your marriage. ďRevenge AffairsĒ by any other name contribute nothing but more toxicity to a relationship. Someone always ends up on the short end of that relationship, take a guess who that would be in your case? It would be just the excuse your wife needs to feel good about what she did, and it wonít do a damned thing to get you out of infidelity.

There are a lot of questions I would be ask that others on SI.com have asked or will ask. Did you actually see her break up with this guy, as you wrote she has? How do you know it happened? Oh, thatís right.. her word? Hmmmm. I would suggest a formal NC letter, that you approve of, be sent and that you witness it being sent. You should see her block him on social media, everywhere. You should see her block his number on her phone. Her phone should never be off limits again. Nor her pc. You are trying to reestablish a foundation of trust in this marriage, and please believe this part even if you ignore the rest... you will never trust her again as long as the POSOM is in her life and in contact with her.

I know you might not want to read this, but your wife paints this fairytale story about their magical connection. Itís really not that magical. Guy finds middle aged woman he can sweet talk money and rent from, feeds her a line of bullshit, she falls for it and cheats on her husband. Doesnít sound that romantic now, does it? If I were you, Iíd be very interested in what money she has paid out to support this guy so far. You didnít consent to it, Iím sure. Remember. It didnít just happen. She actively chose to cheat on you. She didnít hpget hit by a magic wand.

You make her sound remorseful, but she isnít at all remorseful. She just wants to appear that way. Remorseful women arenít concerned with being sugar mamas for their lovers with joint marital assets, even after being caught! Thatís just so much bullshit. What has she done, that is measurable and real, to get the both of you out of infidelity? Anything? Actions mean so much more than words. You need to break out of the shock and assert yourself. Realize you may have to divorce this woman if she canít be 100% honest with you. Donít be so quick to believe OR forgive, you will set yourself up to be miserable.

[This message edited by KingofNothing at 7:28 PM, January 1st (Wednesday)]

JSpaceman posted 1/1/2020 21:20 PM

Once again, thank everyone for the responses. A few of these in particular have really hit home. As things unravel, it's amazing just how many facets of my life this is all wound up in. Well, all of them. A lot of which I never considered until this thread.

Thankful and heartbroken,

Spaceman

BeyondRage posted 1/1/2020 21:53 PM

Spaceman
It appears you are starting to I hope move out of DENIAL. There are very few here if anyone who has read this that believe your wife has not been having a full blown physical affair . Now here are a bunch of folks who do not know each other from Adam or Eve who have only one thing in common which is we all have been in your shoes. It is highly unlikely the entire collective group is wrong.
Now letís forget her words because sheís lying her ass off. What do her actions say??
Sheís caught cheating and what does she do aside from
The bull shit she has fed you?
(1) offers you a hall pass AND an open relationship. Did you ask her what the fuck she wanted out of that???? And why she suggested it?
(2) she then basically refuses to totLly remove this guy from her life. That is a non starter for you to consider reconciliation

Now you can follow the advice and tell her you want a no contact letter or e mail but are you actually going to believe it if you have to force her

Notice I havenít said a word about divorce yet. Thatís because you have not a clue about the truth and she is not going to tell you a damm thing unless she believes you are not going to tolerate this for one more day.

You need to calmly sit her down and tell her
(1) she can remain friends or mentor with this guy if she wants to but she will not do that as your wife
(2) you are seeing an attorney in case she decides she wants to have a boyfriend and husband
(3) she will turn over passwords to every app and electronic account she has
(4) and the best for last is that after she does that she will take a polygraph test to confirm the truth. And if she does that or agrees the first two questions are
Did you have sexual intercourse with anyone but you since youíve been married
Are there any electronic devices or accounts that Spaceman does not know about
If there is any semblance of truth she will do the test. If she refuses what does that tell you

If you want any chance to get to the bottom of this itís time for hardball my friend. Time to get real fucking angry
Good luck. I hope you do what you need to

faithfulman posted 1/2/2020 00:05 AM

I saw your post this afternoon and I could not find time to reply.

Here is the thing: whether you want to divorce or reconcile, my belief is most betrayed spouses, but men especially, need to know as much as possible so they feel they have pursued a course of action that is right for them based on the facts.

Your wife is a fucking liar, and she won't give you any real truth other than what you can prove.

Let me know if you want to extract as much information as possible, and I'll post some techniques you can implement in the next couple of days.

***

All your initial reactions are natural and "right" but only if your wife wasn't an immoral liar.

The actual right thing to do is get fucking mad and go on the offensive - after you have put an information gathering net in place.

Let her know you aren't accepting nonsense and immediately cut the shit anytime she tells you some bullshit story or rationale

Take control and lay down the law.

Good luck to you.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 9:22 AM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

SnowToArmPits posted 1/2/2020 00:57 AM

Hey OP. Here it is - you have a cheating wife.

Ya, happy new year.

This is about as fine a gobbledigook from a cheating spouse as you'll ever read. Kudos to your wife.

She has a complex and confusing explanation for all this. Their eyes met across a crowded room and she got a charge of chemicals like a hit of heroine. It was so powerful, she had to explore it further. When they kissed, the world stopped. But... it's just chemicals. It's all fake. She doesn't even really like this person, it was purely a biological reaction that she's never felt before.

KingofNothing posted 1/2/2020 05:38 AM

If you want any chance to get to the bottom of this itís time for hardball my friend. Time to get real fucking angry
Good luck. I hope you do what you need to

Spaceman, read BeyondRageís thread on here. Thatís him quoted above. Itís very long. I think itís ďcaught her by surpriseĒ or something like. He commented on this thread so just click on his profile to find the link. Lest you think everyone on here is angry and bitter and there can be no happy endings. BRís is an example where two partners really put in the work they needed to start rebuilding a foundation of trust in their marriage. His initial situation was not too different from yoursó wife is away a lot, got involved with some casual hookups, tried to minimize and gaslight. It was also different from yours in that she immediately understood the gravity of what she had done. She demonstrated true remorse for what she had done to her marriage and family and actively sought out what to do to be trusted again. They both put in the work.. they both wanted to. Nobody is perfect, but BRís thread is about as good of an example of the right steps to take to put in the real work and sacrifices required to start to rebuild trust.

KingofNothing posted 1/2/2020 05:38 AM

repeat message again. I wish I could delete these

[This message edited by KingofNothing at 5:39 AM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

Tallgirl posted 1/2/2020 05:38 AM

I am sorry you are here. I agree with the consensus, your wife has not told you the truth. I know you want to believe her, I did the same thing. It takes time to really come to grips with what they have done, that the person you love can do this,, it is inconceivable. But it happened and she chose to do it.

This is my experience. On Dday1 I was in shock. My husband told me his 5 year affair with an escort was over. Swore on his life. To my sobbing face. Swore while I was in a fetal position. He said the same thing to her- that he wanted her and the M was over. He told me everything 10 weeks later, except what he omitted. This is when the affair actually ended. 10 months later I found his last lie. I had to explain that omission was lying.

My WH lied to me for over 10 years straight (before the affair he cheated in different ways). He was so good at it, I was so good at believing his lies. Why? Because I trusted him. No matter what I trusted him.

Donít believe her words. Believe her actions. insist on full transparency, and absolutely no contact with him. Not sure if I understood this correctly, if he is using your place, kick him out yesterday. Give her rules, tell her your dealbreakers. Please read in the healing library, lots of good stuff in there.

Your wife is not accepting accountability for her actions and choices. Sparks flew - nope - she look for an interested man and found one.

It is likely she hasnít stopped the. A and I expect that sex happened.

I am truly sorry, to lose trust in your partner and to be treated in this way is horrible. Please Look at the 180 in the healing library, I think it will help.


JSpaceman posted 1/2/2020 06:03 AM

Once again, thank you everyone. I'm definitely seeing the light. As I mentioned, these posts and consensus are hitting home for me. And of course, as a few days have gone on, I keep realizing more and more things that aren't adding up, and it's really reinforcing that I'm only being told about the things I've discovered on my own. I can only imagine what I'm not.

Speaking of which, I'm so completely overwhelmed with emotion and anxiety. My heart races and pounds out of my chest constantly. I'm getting about 2 hours sleep per night and constantly woken up by my excessive heartbeat. It's starting to scare me.

I'm also feeling another emotion which might be infuriating to the group, but that I wanted to ask about...

That is... I'm feeling a bizarre but overwhelming burst of love and affection towards my wife. I don't know why. I just want to be nice to her. The same kind of nice that I wish we had been to each other over recent years. I keep telling myself I'm treating her too kindly, that I need to be tough and not emotionally let her off the hook. But I just can't help it.

Is this normal? I don't really see this listed as one of the stages of grief. My rational brain knows she's lying to me and thinks there's no way back from this, and some other part of me just keeps telling her I love her and holding her hand. WTF is wrong with me?

To answer some of the questions that have been asked:For KingOfNothing: yes, those minimizing lines were similar. Though as I mentioned, the major theme there is just that this was some one-in-a-million chemical reaction out of her control that would have never happened if she wasn't in that exact moment, place and time.For Faithfulman, yes - I'm definitely in the information gathering stage currently. Any tips are much appreciated.

Thank you all again.

JSpaceman posted 1/2/2020 06:04 AM

(Weird, that double-posted for some reason. Overwriting this one.)

hansvoleman posted 1/2/2020 06:33 AM

I'll try to focus on the things that I think might make my story unique

Hi JS. Sorry to read why you are here but a couple of things struck me when I read your post last night. Primarily it was your first statement above. I suspect you will have already changed your view some what but I wanted to contribute. Please don't look for the uniqueness in your relationship. It just adds to the illusion/delusion of who you partner really is. Look at her actions for the common denominators she shares with peoples' stories here. I can count on one hand the times I have heard in 45 years someone describe the pain and experience of being cheated on in person. Spend a couple of hours on here and you can find half a dozen men and women who share your experience.

Like you, I "knew" the circumstances of my own first marriage were truly unique on these boards and probably out in the real world. Its failure (my failure) tortured me for 25 years but I started to change my views and heal when I joined here. All of the mechanics, behaviours and circumstances that made our relationship unique were totally and utterly irrelevant. My shared experience was that my wife, chose to change our relationship without discussing it with me, chose to hide those changes behind extensive lies, to use the resources I offered and shared for her own, but not my, interests and ultimately showed a level of disrespect and disdain I would not accept from a stranger. Yours is doing the same. SMSA925 put it very well; you have to look at her actions in black and white, and respond accordingly. If you don't, she will take advantage of your ambivalence to continue her behaviours to your detriment.

I also want to echo something M1965 put in his second post. You wrote

We have an investment property in Los Angeles which we bought to support her career, as she goes out there for business quite often now, and was meant to be a convenient place to stay (and park.

She has abused that joint investment completely. Sell it and invest in something that suits you. Losing this will have very real consequences for her in practical terms as well as you being able to demonstrate majorly that your trust in her is shattered. You can be blunt with her. She cannot expect to now benefit from your consideration and work. Let her argue back from that and see what her angle is.

I do hope your wife is one of the few spouses who realise what they have done, what they need to do to repair the damage and then does it. Sadly they are few so I would warn you to hope for the best by all means but prepare for the worst in terms of what she has done and how she then treats you. It can be a deep rabbit hole. I didn't have a clue when I found out who my middle-aged, morbidly obese wife#3 really was (after 6 years together). An "inappropriate online friendship" with an Ebay customer at the other end of the country turned out to be an affair. Then I found out about the "I am a bored BBW looking for fun" personal ads, the evidence of meetups with a "slave master" so she could be used as *** dump at orgies and playtime at our house with adult babies and crossdressers. (Wow. I've never written it out like that). All of that shattered a reality I thought I had constructed. I had..... in my head. However, the good news is your survive and by cahnging the way you look at the world, you thrive. Remember none of this is a reflection on who you are and neither does it define what you become.

Good luck

[This message edited by hansvoleman at 6:36 AM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

Tallgirl posted 1/2/2020 07:08 AM

Hi J

I didnít go through this but have read many posts about hysterical bonding here. It is not unusual. Donít feel that you are abnormal. In simple terms, it is an emotional response when there is infidelity, itís purpose is to save the relationship.

Some folks say, ride the wave. There are reports of great sex. This may last for a few days or weeks.

I would suggest that you focus on facts and actions whether you ride the wave or not.

I hope you have a good few days. It sounds like you are doing as well as can be expected. It is an emotional rollercoaster with deep downs and meh highs, donít be surprised.

ShutterHappy posted 1/2/2020 08:06 AM

Three days ago

Spaceman, yeah, D days is very recent, you canít be in love with your WW on Monday and be completely detached on Tuesday.

Imagine you get run over by a bus and the bones in your leg are all shattered. You ask the doctor at the emergency: doctor, it still hurts, is this normal? I got hit a whole 30 minutes ago...

Your WW is completely irrational. From what you are writing, sheís in love with the OM. But somewhere in her fog she thinks youíre convenient too. Otherwise she wouldnít have hidden anything from you, she would have divorced you the moment her "chemical " kicked in. So why not have an open marriage? She can have both a husband and a BF!!! Makes sense right? No.

The problem is that she has no concept of how devastating this is to you. Cheaters are very very selfish persons.

Because itís so fresh (a few days), itís very hard for you to take your distance. You love your WW and you want whatís best for her... we, at SI, know how it is and how you feel right now.

Because your WW is rooting for an OM, you canít Reconcile. You have to think what is best for YOU. So, detach as much as you can, do the 180. Consult with a lawyer, start the D process. Take care of YOU. Seek help with friends and family. Expose her. Thereís nothing to be ashamed of. She is a shitty spouse right now and itís all on her.

She can blame you all she want. She can rationalize all she wants. But youíre not interested in having that conversation as long as sheís rooting for someone else. Just say : "Sorry, I would be interested in discussing how you would fix the marriage YOU broke, but not while thereís a 3rd party involved ". Then walk away..

3 days... ugh. Post often. You have been heard.

fareast posted 1/2/2020 08:20 AM

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^! Absolutely spot on.

goalong posted 1/2/2020 09:44 AM

It is important to exhibit strength in front of WS in cheating cases. Do your other responsibilities even better. That take your mind off the negative energy and gives you a sense of achievement despite the adversity. BS's emotions/sadness depend on how strongly s/he is attached to WS.
My opinion is WW had too many opportunities to do this and you may have taken her fidelity for granted. Since you also have a stake in her business do not let things as they are and let her continue to have a free hand. As it often says act like you are going to end it even if you want to reconcile.

TimSC posted 1/2/2020 09:51 AM

What you are feeling is the urge to have your wife pick you over her OM. It is very common with a betrayed spouse. It is called the "pick me dance".

However it make you appear weak and will only confirm to her that she can have both you and her AP.

You need to understand that the wife you knew and love has changed. She is now a woman who shares your house but she is in love with another man. Even though she looks like the woman you married, she is no longer that person.

She has already stated that she does not want to give him up. She will continue the affair.

Her excuses and suggestions are all aimed at continuing the affair.

She had amazing sex with her AP. She looks forward to continuing the affair. Emotionally she is gone from you,or at least firmly attached to her AP.

They go on dates, share amazing chemistry, Don't make yourself look pathetic by trying to romance your own wife away from her lover.

Her next trip will be straight to him.

She has betrayed the marriage and is not sorry she did it. What does that leave you?

Thumos posted 1/2/2020 09:57 AM

If her word is to believed, they stopped just short of sex (on several occasions, including in our house in LA...

Her word is not to be believed. This was a full on sexual affair.

They all lie. Your wife lied hundreds of times to your face. Why would you believe anything she has to say at this point?

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:57 AM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

Thumos posted 1/2/2020 10:23 AM

I post this package of things to do hoping every time that a betrayed husband will do it all immediately. I realize though that youíre in shock and probably wonít. But if on the off chance you do these things youíll find yourself out of a bad situation quickly ó with or without your wife.

Your goal should be getting out of infidelity -- not saving your marriage. If your marriage can be saved, it can only be saved with you not twisting in the wind like you are now.

You have your wife on a pedestal and have hard oneitis for her. I get it. I did and still do. Try to reprogram your brain: This woman in front of you is the real woman, not the fantasy pixie artist in your imagination. Sheís exactly the kind of woman who screws around on her husband. Read Proverbs 30:20. Thatís your wife, man. Sheís not special.

I didnít do all of these things below, but then I didnít have someone outlining it all for me either. I wish you luck.

1. This isn't an EA. It's a full blown PA. And it's not cheating, straying, wayward or any of that other euphemistic nonsense. It's adultery. It's a willful, deliberate shattering of the marital vows, a sacred covenant. It didnít just happen, it wasnít a mistake, she didnít trip and accidentally fall on his dick, the sex wasnít meaningless. Once deep kissing has occurred, once bodies have made contact, that's a physical affair. Once the deep kissing barrier has been breached, adults have sex. That's what adults do. They don't fumble around like junior high school students for weeks and weeks. Women like sex as much as men. Reading between the lines of what you've said, she did what only a woman wanting sex with another man will do - she put herself in a situation, timing, proximity, and certain setting to guarantee sex would happen. Women will never do this unless they want sex, because they have been geared by other women (their mothers) to be aware of their surroundings and proximity to men to avoid predatory, dangerous situations. Let that sink in.

1a. Tell her she can have sex with all the men she wants when youíre divorced but if she wants to be your wife then she stops spreading her legs for other men. No open marriage or hall pass bullshit. Tell her you have too much self respect to participate in her moral degradation.

2. Sell the LA property immediately. If she balks tell her youíre done ó and mean it.

3. You need access to her devices. She must hand them over willingly and you will use retrieval software to download everything. Again, this is non-negotiable. Not up for debate. She either does it or you walk. Don't screw around with this or get in an involved circular discussion with her. "Hand the phone over right now or we're done."

3a. Go visit a divorce attorney right now so you know your options and so that you have a plan of action to implement if you need to separate immediately (if she won't comply with your reasonable non-negotiables I've outlined here). Your best course of action considering the level of duplicity here is to file for D, hand her a separation agreement and then give her the package of non negotiables.

4. You are doing a version of the pick me dance. Stop it. Implement the 180 to the best of your ability right now.

5. Give her a package of non-negotiables (see below).This is an all or nothing package. It's a take it or leave proposition. Be ready to walk and mean it with a fervor down to your gonads. Tell her you have too much self-respect to wait around while she dilly dallies on a decision like Scarlett O'Hara. She either does these things or you walk:

THE PACKAGE OF NON NEGOTIABLES

A. Immediate IC for both of you, preferably with therapists who specialize in betrayal trauma. You are the victim of betrayal trauma now, but that doesn't mean you need to stay a victim.

B. No marital or couples counseling. it's destructive and useless in the wake of adultery. Later MC might be good, but much later. Most marital counselors will disregard your pain and try to rug sweep.

C. Full STD panel for her and for you. This must happen. She's claiming no sex, I get it. They all say this. 99% of the time itís a bald faced lie. Tell her this is what you want and it's not up for debate. If she can't do this minimal thing for your peace of mind, then you need to be quits with her.

D. Written timeline of the entire affair. Detailed, WRITTEN, narrative timeline, a day by day accounting. In this case, give her a week to finish it and hand it over. She had plenty of time to screw around with a moral reprobate, she's got plenty of time to detail her affair in writing for you.

E. Polygraph exam for her tested against the WRITTEN timeline for veracity and truthfulness. Polys are cheap in the long run, about $500. Better accuracy with one single question, like "did you have sex" but you can ask additional questions for the same price (the accuracy goes down a little bit with each added question, however). Polys are accurate. The FBI, U.S. Senate, intelligence community and military all use them for a reason. The poly is also a tool to exert tremendous psychic pressure on her to come clean. You'll read a lot here about the proverbial parking lot confession. It's not cruel, it's rational and smart. You need to be rational, cold and smart right now.

F. Moving forward, post nuptial agreement for you to protect you from divorce rape in the event of future infidelity. She's demonstrated a worldview capable of adultery. Cheaters don't always repeat, but post nups are recommended for a reason.

G. She must read and implement How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair. No balking, no weaseling, no delays. Then she provides a written plan for how she will implement the book immediately. If she complains the book is ďheavy handedĒ or some other bullshit, tell her to fuck off.

Lastly, VAR her. VAR the shit out of her. Trust but verify is a cliche for a reason. You need intel, and she's not a trustworthy person. She's a shifty bullshitter. She might gain empathy and remorse later and become a safe life partner.

But not now. Right now she's an adulterous woman. As I said, read Proverbs 30:20 and let that sink in (the proverb could as easily apply to an adulterous man).

You can only make a decision about staying if it's an INFORMED decision. You canít forgive what you donít know, and thereís a shit ton you donít know. People with nothing to hide, hide nothing.

P.S. One thing youíll be tempted to do is say something like ďa polygraph is ridiculousĒ or ďoh I could never spy on my wife like that.Ē Please for your own sake donít do that. Weíve seen and heard it all before.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:32 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

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