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October 20

Pages: 1 · 2 · 3 · 4

Fishin4happyness posted 1/2/2020 10:36 AM

they stopped just short of sex (on several occasions, including in our house in LA... vomit.) Also, if her word is to believed, she broke it off with him ("let's just be friends") that same day she left Austin, and the day it all went down outside the shower.

I just want to point out how common these lies are. I first got the "things were starting to get serious and weird between us, so I broke it off yesterday." Wow that's convenient. Their thinking...Problem solved, lets move on, time to be more careful/sneaky. And the "stopped just short of sex because...", is laughable. There are a few cases wherein the WW will spill the beans once confronted. However, yours, as with mine and most others, will reluctantly admit to a minimized version of whatever you can actually prove to her you know.

Sorry dude, this is a long hard road you are just starting out on. If you want to start moving forward, there has to be consequences that bring her to reality. She will either step up or fold. But sweeping this under the rug will surely make this the first but not the last incident.

Thumos posted 1/2/2020 10:39 AM

That is... I'm feeling a bizarre but overwhelming burst of love and affection towards my wife. I don't know why. I just want to be nice to her. The same kind of nice that I wish we had been to each other over recent years. I keep telling myself I'm treating her too kindly, that I need to be tough and not emotionally let her off the hook. But I just can't help it.

This is completely normal, but you need to fight it. It is a shock and trauma response and sort of the pedestalizing and oneitis on steroids. Im very sorry you are in this situation. Just realize your emotions will be all over the map. This is very fresh and your body has likely flooded with endogenous opioids to alleviate your trauma. In the not too distant future you will begin to think more clearly and the depth of your anger will surprise you.

Fishin4happyness posted 1/2/2020 10:55 AM

As part of that she's been discussing everything from offering some sort of "hall pass", to a break in our marriage for me to recover, to even an open relationship.

It seems like she is use to manipulating you and getting away with it. Just know, this "gift" is not for you. It's for her to continue her affair. My guess is that she hasn't broke shit off.

squid posted 1/2/2020 11:01 AM

I'm feeling a bizarre but overwhelming burst of love and affection towards my wife. I don't know why. I just want to be nice to her. The same kind of nice that I wish we had been to each other over recent years. I keep telling myself I'm treating her too kindly, that I need to be tough and not emotionally let her off the hook. But I just can't help it.

1,000X NO!!!! You cannot EVER "nice" a wayward back. The nice you are thinking of is the kind you had for her when you thought she was your friend, your lover, your partner. Brother, she is none of those things right now. She is a stranger. And and enemy.

Right now she keeping you on a short leash while she still pines after the OM. You are her Plan B. Don't get caught up in the Pick Me Dance. She's already chosen. It ain't you.

And I am 99.99% positive they had sex. It's NEVER EVER EVER just a kiss. I'm sorry. But that much proximity almost always leads to full blown sex. Adults just don't stop if given the opportunity.

Do not merely suggest D. Lawyer up and file. Just do it. If she pulls her head out of her ass and decides she wants you then you can call it off. But otherwise you're only allowing yourself to eat more of her shit lies and justifications.

The only narrative you should be hearing from her is "I was 100% wrong and I choose you and this marriage and will spend the rest our lives together making it up you." That's it. All you have now is more lies, minimizing and excuses.

She is so pathetically textbook it's sickening.

Wake up, brother. I know you're still in shock. But being decisive now will save you more pain. And it might (heavy emphasis) even save your marriage.

Hard 180, NC, and attorney consultation are your immediate steps moving forward. Start separating finances and even change the locks on your other property, if possible. She needs hard consequences.

faithfulman posted 1/2/2020 11:06 AM

Jspaceman, here is some info you can use to find out a whole lot more than she is willing to tell you:



a) Check her phone bill to see who she has been texting and calling, how much, how often etc. See if there are any numbers she has been calling a lot that are suspicious. Run the number(s) through a reverse lookup like spydialer (dotcom). Find out further information through fastpeoplesearch (dotcom) and/or truepeoplesearch (dotcom) which are both free, or if you really want to learn more, try truthfinder or beenverified, both online, beenverified you can find a promo code to make it like $3 for a 5-day trial.

b) Get her phone in your hand and look through her texts, any other messaging apps, photos and videos.

c) Buy the phone recovery software "Fonelab" and run a recovery on her phone to capture any deleted information such as text messages, photos, videos, cheater app messages, you'll also be able to see her notes, calls made and more.

d) Collect that evidence, and store it away safely! If you run a recovery the evidence will be saved to your computer. Otherwise do it with screenshots that you send yourself.


e) If you have another apple device, you can add it to her iCloud account and then you will see all her iMessages, and if you do it correctly, her SMS messages as well, in real time as they appear on the device in your possession. Be careful, adding a phone to an iCloud account generates an alert on the main phone so have her phone in hand when you do this and dismiss the alert.

f) If she is on an iPhone see if you can get into her iCloud account and maybe you can retrieve her iMessages. Be careful, accessing iCloud generates an email to the account holder so you must be prepared to intercept and delete that email.



a) Get a couple of VARs (Voice Activated Recorders) the Sony ICD-PX470 is the sweet spot $50 at Amazon, put one in her car and keep another around to record her in the house.

The point here is to hear what she says when you are not around, particularly afer you confront her and she is panicking. That is when cheaters run to their car and call their affair partners and partners in crime.

b) Read the manual for a couple of minutes and you will learn how to turn off any kind of beeps or lights.

c) Get a ton of triple a batteries, Amazon brand (about $14 last I checked.)

d) Get a Sandisk 32 Gigabyte MicroSD card for each VAR, about $8 on Amazon and you'll have dozens of hours of recording time.



A) Implement some kind of phone monitoring service: mSpy, ikeymonitor, cocospy, Flexispy, webwatcher, there are a ton of them.

These services allow you to monitor all kinds of phone communications in near real-time.

If you go this route you don't have to add a phone to her iCloud account.



a) Since you busted her on her laptop, a keylogger is a must. put it on before she changes the password.

I've used "bestfreekeylogger", but if she changes her password, you cannot get to the information. I've head good things about "Webwatcher" (Who also make phone monitoring software) and "Spytech SpyAgent"



a) If she wants to stay with you demand a detailed timeline that she will write immediately

b) Find a reputable Polygraph operator and tell her you reserve the right to verify it via polygraph.

I would tell her after she writes the initial timeline and then watch her run back and amend the shit out of it.

Others might advise you to tell her prior to writing the timeline.

c) The purpose of the sexual details is for you to really really know what went down and for her to stop living in a fantasy land of a "beautiful romance that was meant to be".


Do these things and you will know what you need to know.

Best of luck to you Jspaceman

[This message edited by faithfulman at 11:08 AM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

Dismayed2012 posted 1/2/2020 11:07 AM

Your WW is a standard lying cheater JSpaceman. There's nothing special about her cheating or the many choices she made to betray your trust and your marriage. It is funny however the way she attributed it to 'chemical reactions' out of her control. I was LOL while reading that one. You now have a decision to make. Do you want to continue to spend your short life with someone who was willingly and knowingly betraying you and who's still lying about the extent of it? Do you want to spend your life wondering how many other men she might have been with and wondering when and how she might do it again? Do you want to live with the uncertainty she's now revealed as bringing to your future? It's your choice but I'd recommend you taking your life back and living it free from drama and free from people who willingly betray you. I wish the best for you.

BeyondRage posted 1/2/2020 11:09 AM

Im going to reiterate what I posted to you. Despite what everyone is telling you you are still in the fog as much as your wife
She just offered you an open marriage! So basically that means she is perfectly willing to be ok with you fucking other women so that she can continue to have sex with her boyfriend. Now why on earth would she agree to that or suggest it if all they were doing is kissing and petting???
Can you answer that?????
And so far you have not apparently said anything to her that has had any effect on her decision to continue to have contact with him.
You will not solve your problem until you get out of denial. Once you know how many times and how many lies she told to be banging him lets see if you have all the loving feelings for her. If you still accept what shes doing you can get a lot of help on non monogamy forums.
You can get immense help here once you decide shes not allowed to be your wife and have a boyfriend. It is very doubtful anyone continuing to post here will be telling you anything much different than what you have already heard .
But only you can do what you need to to get out of infidelity and there is no guarantee that in doing that you will remain married because she is ass deep in emotional attachment with this OM

Marauder posted 1/2/2020 12:13 PM


Getting that out of the way. They didn't stop "short of sex", why would they? They likely banged like rabbits. Also, stop feeling for snooping, you found something by accident and then followed it up. You were completely justified. She didn't "bust you", you did nothing wrong whatsoever. She even trying to pretend that to be the case needs to be shut down and shut down hard.

She feels like this person is in her life for a reason, and that reason is to help him.

This is a big no. Right now she should be cutting contact with him completely and immediately. She would need to take a bunch of steps right now, which includes not going to Austin anymore, nor California amongst other things. Apparently she's unwilling to do even the least basic thing for you, this means she's not a candidate for R, at all.

Do the 180. Contact a divorce lawyer, even if you don't go through with it, in the end, you should find out what your rights are, what you should be doing, it also sends a message to your WW.

It seems like she is use to manipulating you and getting away with it. Just know, this "gift" is not for you. It's for her to continue her affair. My guess is that she hasn't broke shit off.

She's blatantly still in contact with the guy, so I'd say you're spot on. She's now trying to legitimize the entire thing. OP being nice to her, partially taking the blame, feeling bad for "having snooped", etc just makes it worse and makes her feel more entitled.

[This message edited by Marauder at 12:15 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

PassThis posted 1/2/2020 12:55 PM


Their eyes met across a crowded room and she got a charge of chemicals like a hit of heroine. It was so powerful, she had to explore it further. When they kissed, the world stopped. But... it's just chemicals. It's all fake. She doesn't even really like this person, it was purely a biological reaction that she's never felt before.

How can a wife think that she can say things like this about another man to her husband, and expect him to stay with her?! SHE had to explore it more! WTF! Say to her, "That must be exciting for you, but you went too far by even "exploring" and then kissing him. If you have any further contact with OM, you can not be my wife. In fact, if you don't get your head straight PDQ, you won't be my wife in any case."

And worse, she still wants this person in her life.

She also seems sincere in wanting to reconcile our marriage.

These statements are totally incompatible.

Please follow the good advice that you have received from the SI posters. She needs to immediately remove this OM from her life.

She does know that divorce is an option.

She is definitely not acting like she does. You should implement the strict 180 right now! Given what she said to you, how she hid this from you, and is probably lying to you whenever her lips move, you should file for divorce and have her served asap. Then she might understand that you are serious that if she has the hots for another man, she cannot have you. Also, set up separate bank accounts and obtain a separation agreement (part of the divorce proceedings). Make sure that she is only spending her money on her boyfriend. Do not be there for her for any reason while she is in her affair. When she started her "exploring" she left the marriage. You should not continue to act like her husband after you have been "fired." If she convinces you somehow that she absolutely wants you, only you, and explains this outrageous behavior, you can always stop the divorce.

Absolutely, do not play the pick me game with her. You cannot compete against a chemically-induced fantasy that can not be compared to the reality of an everyday life commitment for decades. Apparently she is in limerence with OM and you (a mere husband who truly loves her) cannot compete, in the short-term, with the new relationship excitement and emotions).

If you even want her back, you need to show that you are strong, dignified, and deserve (demand) to be treated better than how she is treating you. It is appalling! You do not need to eat this shit sandwich she has served to you, much less do it with a smile and say thanks.

I am sorry, but I am truly offended for you. Please take from this post what helps you, and ignore the rest.

You report nothing of her crying, on her knees begging forgiveness, saying she is sorry, that she loves you, or anything close to showing regret, remorse, or even just giving a shit.

I am so sorry that you are in this situation, and wish you the strength and luck to be able to get out of infidelity, whether you choose R or D.

beenthereinco posted 1/2/2020 13:04 PM

Their eyes met across a crowded room and she got a charge of chemicals like a hit of heroine. It was so powerful, she had to explore it further. When they kissed, the world stopped. But... it's just chemicals. It's all fake. She doesn't even really like this person, it was purely a biological reaction that she's never felt before.

Was this supposed to make you feel better? Because what I am reading here is that I found him attractive, he found me attractive also and so we had no option but to get together! WTF! I see attractive people all of the time. I assume some of them find me attractive as well. I am capable of not "exploring" that further. That statement alone is basically your WW saying she has no control over her impulses. That statement alone says "I am not a safe person to be married to".

KingofNothing posted 1/2/2020 13:21 PM

Though as I mentioned, the major theme there is just that this was some one-in-a-million chemical reaction out of her control that would have never happened if she wasn't in that exact moment, place and time.

Spaceman, wow, man. So you are stating that we are ALL slaves of hormones and chemical reactions? Or is she saying this is her excuse? It's entirely normal behavior to forsake all responsibilities, all promises, and any marriage vows, just because you chemically clicked with someone? Please read what you said out loud and tell me if it sounds like it makes sense. Nope, it doesn't. She's basically stating that this magical "thing" happened that just made her forget TWENTY SEVEN YEARS of marriage. Respectfully, because I think you still have your wife on a pedestal, but that excuse is bullshit. I was married almost as long as you, I have traveled extensively, I have met many women who were attractive, and fascinating company. I never had an EA or PA with any of them.. ya know why? Because I wouldn't ever do that. I was married and loved my wife more than anybody. I respected her and I respected the marriage we made.

This much is a fact. Your wife CHOSE TO DO THIS. There was no magic fairy dust that made her break her vows of marriage, the other guy wasn't a master hypnotist, and the only chemistry present (unless she was rufied) was the old fashioned kind that most people ignore when tempted. Understand that if you don't accept anything else-- she chose her actions, planned them and is continuing to plan them. It's on her. That woman. The woman you married.

Magical "Chemistry" is no excuse. Maybe you're being sardonic and repeating what she's saying word for word and don't believe that any more than I do (and I can't read the sarcasm in your text). The truth is that plenty of marriages have situations where one or the other meet someone they are attracted to, and DO NOTHING TO ENCOURAGE it.

I strongly suspect this OM is a bum and a charmer, trying to milk your wife of $$ and place to live (and you get to help pay for it! Surprise!) This is going to have a sad ending if you don't get proactive about it right now. Believe me, I'm not saying that to be a mean guy, I've been through a very similar situation and all the little details are SO familiar. Find out about that 180 program, in the healing library. Take care of yourself and minimize feedback to her about your plans. You don't want to be more of a victim here.

[This message edited by KingofNothing at 1:35 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

Buster123 posted 1/2/2020 13:34 PM

Right now you have an unremorseful WW who's not even willing to stop contact with her boyfriend, you have absolutely nothing to work with at this point, simply file for D and EXPOSE her A with ALL family and close friends, D takes a long time and can be stopped if she comes around and ends her A, offers full on demand access to her phone and all electronic devices and passwords FOREVER (there's no such a thing as privacy in a M other than toilet time), if she refuses NC FOREVER and to do the heavy lifting to restore the M she destroyed with her huge betrayal, then just let D run its course and get out of infidelity.

Nothing kills an A faster than FULL EXPOSURE with All family and close friends, full exposure without warning typically throws a wrench in the WS plans and sends them scrambling and face the ugliness, shame and full embarassment of it, it removes the "beautiful and romantic" aspect of the A, if full exposure and D papers don't shock her back to reality then nothing will, if so just cut her loose forever, don't forget to get tested for STDs, adults involved in an A who are in close proximity have sex, they're not teenagers with sweaty hands. Keep posting frequently, this is a crucial time, believe it or not the collective wisdom of SI has seen cases like yours play out THOUSANDS of times.

Thumos posted 1/2/2020 13:36 PM

In addition to the outline I provided on page 2 of this thread she should also document for you a no-contact text, email and postage letter to the other man and completely block him on social media and suspend all her social media accounts. All five of those things. That is no guarantee she wont contact him again, but it puts her on record and shell now have to really face her lying self in the mirror if she breaks no contact. Selling the condo in LA will make it harder for the relationship to continue. Having a VAR in her car and around the house will also alert you to any breaking of NC.

Finally, please go ahead and blow this open expose this to her immediate family. Dont wait on this or she will weave a bullshit narrative with your in-laws. Tell them this is why youre separating and that shes still lying to you by minimizing the extent of a three month adulterous affair during which she lied to you hundreds of times (incidentally, if an affair goes more than a few weeks it typically becomes sexual and shes been doing this since October).

sisoon posted 1/2/2020 14:27 PM

What follows is my opinion. Some of what I write will be in the form of directives because it's easier to write that way. Don't forget that the directives come from opinions.

But these are facts: I know very, very little about you. I know nothing about your W other than what you've written. No one here knows any more than you tell us.

Did your W and om stop at petting? Maybe. Probably not. Does it make a difference? If my W had stopped at petting, I don't think I'd be better off, so I don't think the answer makes a difference.

Is your W holding back relevant info? Probably. Does it make a difference? If you want D, it doesn't. If you want or may want R, it most definitely does.


There are very few rules for recovering from infidelity. D is right for some; R is right for others.

IC/therapy can help, if you work with a good IC. Not all ICs are competent, and an incompetent one can damage you.

Early MC can help - it helped me immensely - but generally MC is better left until healing has taken hold. Most MCs treat the M, though, and the M didn't fail - the WS did.

Lawyering up is probably a good idea in most cases, but it's unnecessary in others.

Polygraph is essential for some people, useless for others.

STI/STD testing is essential in most cases, but not all.

One rule is you're better off if you give up trying to control the outcome - both D & R can be good choices. You can do D yourself, but R takes 2, and you can't control your WS.

One probable rule is this: BSes who take control of themselves seem to do better than BSes who attend to messages they've taken in during their lives - message like 'you must do ____ when you've been betrayed. BSes do better when they focus on getting what they want than on appearances.

Another probable rule is that communicating with your WS is essential if R is something you're considering. The communication will probably result in more pain, but your WS's responses are data that help you make the D/R decision.

A sub-rule is that communicating about a written timeline probably is a good indicator of the WS's suitability for R.


Forget your W for a few moments. You're probably in shock. An immense amount of grief, anger, fear, and shame have been dumped on you. You've been traumatized. You probably aren't in the best shape to make long term decisions.

The most important project facing you right now is recovering from being betrayed. That's a long term project, but starting on it will help tremendously.

Start by taking care of yourself - drink water, cut out alcohol and other drugs, eat what you can that's healthy, sleep a close to a healthy amount as possible, move your body.

I recommend observing yourself as you work through recovery - notice your feelings, notice the volatility of your thoughts and feelings, feel the emotions and let them go. Keep your head above water, and ride the waves. If you want help, find a good IC.

A lot of us feel like we're on a roller coaster. I felt that, and I also felt as if I was surrounded by, say, bees, with each bee coming at me with contradictory thoughts that I had to deal with right then.

The roller coaster was gaining acceptance of being betrayed. The bombardment by bees ... in fact, I didn't have to respond immediately. I had to let them come, and I had to get help (from a good IC) to sort them out and make some sense of my new reality. I think you have to do the same.

As you deal with the thoughts, feelings, and resistance to taking care of yourself, you will probably get some idea of what you want. That's critical - if you want to D, you can save yourself a lot of effort in the short term.

If you think you may want to R, you then need to think about your requirements for R, and you need to monitor your W to see if she's a candidate for R.


Don't think you can control the outcome. You need to be yourself and to act in your own best interests. There's no guarantee you can get exactly what you want - but if you don't act to get what you want, you almost definitely won't get it.

Forget pride. Forget the insult. Figure out what you want, whether you think it's attainable or not. Then identify the best outcome you can reasonably hope for, and go for it.

If you make mindful choices based on what you want, you will survive and thrive, whether you D or R.

If you make choices out of fear or out of wanting to appease others (especially if the 'others' are voices in your head), you'll survive, but I doubt that you'll thrive.


Unless you know you want D, give yourself some time to figure out what you want. R won't work unless your W is, in fact, remorseful and willing to do the necessary work. Finding out if she's a good candidate for R takes some months of observation by you and of consistent work by her.

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:31 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

TooManyCliches posted 1/2/2020 14:30 PM

I'm feeling a bizarre but overwhelming burst of love and affection towards my wife. I don't know why. I just want to be nice to her. The same kind of nice that I wish we had been to each other over recent years. I keep telling myself I'm treating her too kindly, that I need to be tough and not emotionally let her off the hook. But I just can't help it.

I want to echo others that this is normal, or at least (since I don't have a lot of experience on here) very much what I've been going through. I don't think it's the healthiest place to be at the moment, but I can't get away from "look at what I almost lost, and could still lose." Objectively, I know that I DID lose it already, and if we manage to go forward, it's because we rebuild, not because we hold on to what was there. But when I'm with him, I can't help but thinking about all of the times that neither of us put in enough effort over the last few years, and just how much he means to me.

I'm calling today to schedule counseling for myself, because I know I need it.

jtom posted 1/2/2020 14:37 PM

Great advice given you. Hope you act on it. Also, are you sure POSOM,is not married? Who told you he wasn't ? Unless you know for sure, need to verify that.STAY STRONG.

Marz posted 1/2/2020 14:45 PM

Also, are you sure POSOM,is not married? Who told you he wasn't ? Unless you know for sure, need to verify that.STAY STRONG.

Excellent point. You can't believe anything your wife says at this time.

ryno posted 1/2/2020 16:21 PM


Have you considered using the LA property for yourself? I don't know your circumstances but taking the initiative and relocating to the West Coast for a "lifestyle change" sends a signal to your wife of an intent to move on regardless. I would also let your wife know options for opening up the marriage or calling a temporary cessation to it are unacceptable. Leave the "Hallpass" option for you open! Make her uneasy and get her out of the comfort zone she currently enjoys.

The purpose is to make yourself that little bit more mysterious (and new). A hint of competition for your affections (you don't need to have some one) or a failure on your part to deny there is another woman may suddenly pique your wife's interest. Just my thoughts based on life experience.

[This message edited by ryno at 4:34 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

Thumos posted 1/2/2020 16:40 PM

STI/STD testing is essential in most cases, but not all.

I have to say with as firm an opinion as I can that given the length of the affair, and the high likelihood of unprotected sex, not getting an STD/STI panel for yourself is literally playing Russian Roulette with your health. STD's can be spread through deep kissing. But they are most certainly spread through unprotected sex. She has, in all likelihood, shared another man's microbiome with you.

Really think about that. Because the likelihood of sex is high, she is in all probability sharing three genital microbiomes in her vagina hers, yours and the other mans. Pretty fucking disgusting, right? Adultery is a radioactive dirty bomb and it starts at the microscopic biome level and then works out in ripples to every layer of life physical, psychological, financial, career, emotional, and spiritual. Everything.

If that doesnt give you the heebie jeebies about getting an STD test for you and demanding she take one, Im not sure what will.

An STD/STI test for yourself, at a minimum, is just plain common sense. An STD/STI test for her is also common sense if you ever plan on having sex with her again.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:37 AM, January 3rd (Friday)]

Thumos posted 1/2/2020 16:50 PM

Polygraph is essential for some people, useless for others.

Sisoon is correct when he says these are just our opinions. They are, however, informed opinions. In my opinion and the opinion of many others, a polygraph is a sword that slices through the Gordian's knot of lies. The accuracy is debatable, but not that debatable. They are deployed in law enforcement, corporate, intelligence and military settings routinely. I think most adulterers who Google how to argue against the efficacy of polygraphs are doing that usually because they are scared shitless they will be revealed as liars.

Some will try to argue against them by noting they are not admissible in a court of law. But this is a silly argument, because all kinds of hard, empirical evidence gets excluded from a court of law. Courtrooms are byzantine tea ceremonies for conducting a "fair trial" -- anyone who has been a trial attorney or a reporter can tell you courtrooms are not environments for getting at the entire truth.

Nothing is 100 percent foolproof, but polygraphs are good at assessing a subject's deceptiveness. On top of this, they are a tool of psychic pressure that can be exerted on an adulterer to come clean. That doesn't always work, either. But it does work enough that it has become SOP around here. And it shows your wife you're not screwing around.

That said, nothing we've suggested here is a panacea. Think of them instead as prerequisites for getting you clear of infidelity and a way of inoculating you against your wife's moral morass and web of deception. The things myself and others have recommended will not decide for you whether to R or D -- that's your decision. But these things will give you actionable information and data upon which to make a more informed decision.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:43 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

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