To pinkpggy - I appreciate this post topic more than just about any of the other ones I've read here, not only because I do think there is a difference in expression of remorse, but also to remind myself that my WH isn't me and does not communicate in the same way that I do. Not that I will use this as an excuse to allow him to just rug-sweep (that's not happening again) but to not let myself get so emotionally overwhelmed when he doesn't say all the things I want when I want them. So thank you!
I have no idea if WW are more "remorseful" than WH - but I do think that WW are likely better able to communicate remorse than WH GENERALLY speaking - and I attribute that to social conditioning. My WH for example has a very hard time communicating his remorse or empathy (or much of anything for that matter) as it makes him angry and agitated unless he is in the right mood. I have no doubt that he wants to work on our R (in fact most days I think I doubt things a lot more than he does) even though he unable to communicate remorseful words. What has kept me around thus far is that despite his extreme difficulty with talking about my feelings and what happened and his, he has sat down and answered questions, changed his job schedule, tried to be more accountable and locatable to the extent possible (he is in a phone-off workplace - high security - his AP is also there so when he enters the building I have no idea what goes one), and has talked with me about all this. That is the only proof I have that he wants to stick around as aside from a few times his remorseful words are few and far between. I realize this does not mean he does not FEEL remorse and empathy, though he has admitted that he rug-sweeps instead of feeling empathy in relation to his own actions to protect himself from having to deal with things (which is a major breakthrough in its own right I guess).
Why is he unable? I can only hazard a guess as to his issues (father was a very stoic person who does not show much emotion, who cheated on his mother and left/married the OW and is still married today and no one talks about it including his own mother so his entire upbringing was one of very little communication other than superficial talk). He has a very difficult time admitting his own flaws, but I suspect that he has a much more difficult time talking about them as he's been writing a lot to himself and doing a lot of reading which he says has helped a lot with him figuring himself out and trying to change.
In my personal experience outside of my current mess of a relationship, I have noticed that most men I have dated or are friends with seem to struggle with communicating empathetic feelings and/or seem to be able to say "less" of them. For example, years ago when I lived with my now ex the neighbor's dog was run over by one of the other neighbors - I am shattered and feel horrible for everyone involved including the dog. My then BF seemed legitimately upset about it (especially the dog) and he and I had a rather lengthy conversation about it but when we spoke to the neighbor he said very little even though the neighbor clearly wanted to talk. Later on when I discussed talking with the neighbor he said "Yeah, I felt terrible for him but I just didn't know what to say." I thought there were a million things to say to comfort the neighbor but he didn't even try except saying something simple like "That was terrible thing but it wasn't your fault" or something. It struck me as strange and so unnatural not to want to comfort someone more. Interestingly, my empathy and caring for others is one of the things my WH says caused him to fall in love with me - yet he has a horrible time reciprocating with words.
This is a simplistic example but I think that women in society today are "conditioned" to be empathetic and to show their emotions, especially when they reflect an admission of something they have done wrong whereas men don't receive that same conditioning. Right or wrong, it is a fact. Cheryl Strayed in one of her essays made the statement once that has stuck with me all this time that went something like this: Women are born with a "born to serve" button attached to their chest and they go through life actively "serving" others before they serve themselves. There is a reason why the joke exists that a man won't ask for directions and will wander aimlessly for ages before asking for help and a woman wants to ask the first person that comes along: admitting one is lost is a perceived weakness and women don't have all the baggage that comes with weakness like men do (or at least the perception that we are not allowed to show weakness).
All this a generalization - majorly - of course there are some women who can't show weakness and there are some men who are very in touch with their feelings and have no trouble with these issues. But I think this concept of being "born to serve" spills over into showing empathy, remorse, distress, and other perceived "weaknesses" for women easier than for men because we are "allowed" from day one to have them and show them. While I think society is changing, men are still supposed to be strong, grin and bear it, make their apologies if necessary, and move on.
Again, this is a gross generalization but I think that the OP's "more remorseful" comment is a function of this simplified concept. As a BW (or as a WW if I were one) it was/would not be a major issue for me to join SI and post/ask questions/receive advice and read because I have zero problem admitting that: 1) My relationship has a major problem; 2) My WH has treated me horribly; 3) Some people are going to judge me harshly for still sticking around; and 4) My relationship had some issues prior to his A that were my fault that I need to work on with him or with whoever I go out with later if "we" do not work out. This is not a humbling process for me, and while I feel embarrassed and humiliated by what he did, the thought of not talking about it to others is impossible for me. The natural thing for me to do is to talk to someone about my problems or I will explode.
Whereas for my WH, he (as of yet) has been unable to talk to anyone about this except me, and I think it is not only because he is afraid of the negative judgements he will likely receive but also because he will be admitting there are things wrong with him - that he is not as strong as he portrays himself to be. If he admits he screwed up out loud - as in saying the words "I really fucked up here and I'm sorry," he is admitting a personal weakness. I have told him I need him to do that and so far I've been very disappointed...but I digress.
EDITED to put my thanks to pinkpggy first as I see she has taken a lot of flak for this thread and I really appreciate it. Also thanks to the MODS for leaving it up.
[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 4:53 PM, August 14th (Tuesday)]
