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We had a second d-day/indiscretion whatever about 18 monthes ago.

Ever since, my H has been deep in therapy. Really deep. He's finally backed down to about twice a month.

But the problem for me is that even with all this therapy, he is still focused on him. It's really great that he has worked a lot on himself, but I have pretty much put myself on hold this entire time. I knew that he was not capable of working on us until he could work on him.

But now, 18 months later, and I'm not feeling the impetus to work on us. And when I do bring something up, he turns it back into about him. Not in a bad way, but more as in he's making a list to take back to his therapist. For example, I had a really big trigger the other day. Full fledged panic attack. Normally, I just deal with it, but I thought I would make myself vulnerable to him (because he has asked me to), and I told him. We were in a public place, so I figured I couldn't lose it. His response was "I can see why that would upset you." Later he said he was trying to figure out how he could talk about it with his therapist. Given, we were in a public place, but there wasn't a "Gee, I'm so sorry hon" or a hug or anything.

Or I just try and deal with it myself because, well, it's been 18 months now, and I'm just so tired.

We are in MC, kinda. Our MC is also his IC. We talk, we meet occasionally, but it's been a year and a half now.

I'm trying to decide that if by healing by myself, I'm excluding him from my life. This doesn't feel right or healthy for our relationship, but he's so messed up, I'm not sure he's capable of a normal adult relationship yet. Our sex life is really floundering as I was the primary initiator of it, but it's all mental for me, and I'm just not there anymore.

Don’t know coping_girl, just wanted you to know you were heard...

If it helps; I am somewhat going through this alone too, but my WS is doing the opposite with IC. They appear to be working on marriage issues instead of her personal demons that allowed herself permission to be unfaithful. I wish they’d look at those issues. A smiling demon isn’t really any better than one that bitches and complains; the house is tidier though :p

So, I work on me. The more I work on me, the less I need her for satisfying any of my needs. So much for the “you complete me” sentiments when I’m busy completing myself... At some point I figure I’ll hit a point where I don’t need anything from her anymore. I haven’t decided if that’s good or bad. On one hand, that means whatever she offers to me is a gift, not a necessity in my mind. I could just enjoy the perks of marriage without expectations. On the other, it will be a blow to her self-esteem to know she’s not needed. Worst case results in me questioning: Why limit myself to dealing with this cheater when I could be single without this worry?

coping_girl.

If the WS is toxic. Doing TT. Blaming you for the A. Ignoring your needs. Ignoring your boundaries. May be even violating NC.

Then I think you can heal BETTER with out them.

About the IC. In my experience. MOST MC/IC are really lacking in experience with dealing with betrayal and cheating. They are more comfortable dealing with M issues. And so they kinda contribute to the WS feeling the M is what caused the A. And of course YOU caused the M problems. So. I guess you caused the A then.

Listen. Some here have had a very good experience with MC or IC. Hats off to them. The problem tho is that MC and IC are in a position of authority. And if they dont know what the hell they are talking about. And thereby give BAD advice. It can really devastate chances at R.

In my experience. Every and all MC and IC we and I tried. All of them were X-cheaters them selfs. May be I had bad luck. But thats my experience. And of course the MC or IC is not going to advertise that they were WS or are still in a LTA.

I guess I am saying be very careful who are are getting advice from.

Razor

I haven't decided whether my H is toxic. I believe he is not maliciously toxic. I do fear that I am in some kind of a emotionally abusive relationship - one where he hurts me, but always comes back to me, promising that he's sorry and he loves me and he'll never do it again. But he always does.

I do like our IC/MC. I think she's good. She doesn't pull crap and is willing to call both of us on issues.

I think the problem is that I have been expected to not only help him with his mess o' crap, but also take on the full weight of healing myself because he is not capable of handling both.

Somehow, even after all of this, it's still all about him. He's upset that I don't feel comfortable or safe talking to him about my feelings, but he gets defensive and dismissive when I do. And now they have been simmering for 18 months. They aren't boiling anymore, but I have some deep burns now that I'm not sure will heal.

What does he do if you say--hold me now.

Tell me you love me.

Tell me you're sorry again.

To me. It sound like you WH is using the IC like he used his AP. With the IC it is all about HIM. Attention attention attention. You WH is using IC as emotional support where IMHO he should be turning to YOU for that.

Allmost like another sort of A but with the IC. I know that sound really odd. But in a sense you WH is turning OUTSIDE the M for emotional support. So is that not a EA?

IMHO most IC MC are ill equipt for handling cheating. They are good at personal emotional issues. They are good at M problems. So that is where they put they focus. The want to work on these things because that is what they under stand and are comfortable with. Infidelity may be some thing they have read a few chapters on in they text books at university. But do they have REAL WORLD experience with it? Most IC MC do a absolutely hideous job with infidelity.

So. IMHO this IC MC is hurting you M much more than helping it.

Razor

Razor - I get you, I really do. We have been through many, many counselors. I've learned to recognize the good ones and the bad ones. No counselor is perfect, of course, and they all hold different functions. It also helps because I am a psychologist as well - not a counselor by any means! but I know enough to recognize the danger signs. In fact, she came recommended to us by other couples who had infidelity in their relationships and she had helped them work through it successfully. Plus, she told me up front that she would be honest with me (as she has been with other women) - if she didn't think this was going to succeed, she'd let me know.

Our counselor is trying to help him weed through the mess of the FOO stuff that allowed him to do the things that he has done. These things are really important - we can't have a relationship if he doesn't deal with it. Our last counselor only dealt with the marriage, but not with what was going on inside him.

That said, he is using his IC to make it all about him again. I suppose I have been more forgiving of it because I think it is critical to the success of this project. I'm not sure our counselor sees this - that may be my fault for not being as vocal with it.

ITIC - those are all things he does. Openly. Without asking. If I do ask, he does them. But, we are not new to the R game. I shouldn't have to ask after every fight for him to hold me. I am generally open to expressing (calmly) my needs and wants, but if I have to ask 3, 4, 15 times, I do tend to shut down. I need to feel listened to and acknowledged (he knows this - but often forgets).

My basic philosphy is that no, you do not heal each other. You only heal yourselves. You should support each other - because you are married to each other. But in terms of healing, it has to be the self.

Having said that...

That said, he is using his IC to make it all about him again.

That was one of the reasons I loved therapy. I get to be the center of attention. So, I believe you are right about his motivations in IC.

I shouldn't have to ask after every fight for him to hold me.

I agree completely. But let me ask... why do you want him to hold you after every fight? Is it because that confirms for you that he still loves you? Could this be a love language thing? Does he do something else that could indicate that he loves you? Like, after a fight, does he go and mow the lawn? (or whatever) Does he need a cool-down period after a fight?

And have you asked him why he does not hold you after a fight? Is it because he is ashamed? Who usually wins? Does he hold you if he wins or if you win?

Amongst my girlfriends... if we are fighting about an external topic (politics, someone else's behavior), it is easy to agree to disagree and enjoy lunch anyway. But if it is a personal thing (we think the other person is doing something wrong), it is not as easy to enjoy lunch afterwards.

Does the topic of the fight make a difference in how he responds afterwards?

Let me clarify - no, I do not want him to hold me after every fight. Most times, I don't want him to hold me at all after fights :). We don't fight often anyway. We have discussions. There is no winner. More that I want to be heard, and he wants it to be resolved. After his first affair, we learned how to fight, so that is generally much better.

The "holding me" comment was more in reference to the severe trigger I had, and his response was to make a note about something to take back to his therapist that he thought needed to address within himself, when what I wanted, needed was him to engage with me. I wanted him to reach out to me and say - hey, I love you, I'm really sorry you are hurting, but I'm here. Or something to that effect. Or, I support you. I am still dealing with occasional PTSD symptoms. This last one (the one referenced in the beginning) was one of the worst I have had in a year. It took every bit of trust I had to even tell him about it.

When I said I wanted his help in healing, I think I am asking for support. It is up to me to heal, but if it is completely by myself, for myself, supported by myself, why stay married?

I have spent most of my married life putting his needs first - either by my choice, or by his actions. The ones that were my choice, I stand behind as they were my decisions in the support of my family.

However, this also means my needs get pushed on the back burner.

Actually, when we fight, he is the one who needs constant reassurance. One of his "issues" is that he needs constant petting and reassurance from me that I love him. I'm not talking about a love language thing (we took the love language test too), but almost pathological. It's exhausting to not only try and get myself in place but also take care of his needs.

I thought at some point in the process of R, I got to have some needs. And they were allowed. I really, really haven't asked for much. He travels a lot. He has a lot of hobbies that he enjoys doing. I have taken up some of his hobbies to a low level (while still giving him his space - more so we could have something to do together on occasion - he has not done the same). I have listened to him, held him while he cried, dealt with his family stuff. I have tabled all of our relationship issues for 18 monthes while he worked on himself because until that time he wasn't emotionally mature enough to be able to work on us.

This just doesn't seem fair. I have no support. I can't tell my family or friends about this last indescretion - I would have no support for R. I have no spouse - just an additional child that I live with.

When do I get to ask for something? I think I have been more than patient and understanding through these five years.

Let me clarify - no, I do not want him to hold me after every fight. Most times, I don't want him to hold me at all after fights :).

Okay. Sorry, I misunderstood!

We don't fight often anyway. We have discussions. There is no winner. More that I want to be heard, and he wants it to be resolved.

This sounds like a Mars/Venus thing.

what I wanted, needed was him to engage with me. I wanted him to reach out to me and say - hey, I love you, I'm really sorry you are hurting, but I'm here.

Does he understand this? (This still sounds like Mars/Venus to me.)

When I said I wanted his help in healing, I think I am asking for support.

Yes, I believe spouses should absolutely support each other.

I thought at some point in the process of R, I got to have some needs.

What would happen if you went ahead and did what you needed to do?

US - Yes, the mars/venus thing has been discussed. In nauseum. For the last 5 years. In counseling. Out of counseling. He knows/acknowledges that he sometimes dismisses my feelings/thoughts in lieu of a solution. He "gets" it for a couple weeks, and he knows when I bring it up, but it never sticks.

But, if I do not bring up my thoughts/feelings whatever, he gets upset that I'm not talking to him enough, or initiating these conversations about what I think/feel. He got mad at me once that I wasn't being emotionally vulnerable to him. But when I am, he doesn't know how to handle it. He rationalizes, defends, dismisses.

What would happen if you went ahead and did what you needed to do?

I crave emotional intimacy with him. I crave trust and a connection again with him. That said, I'm really beaten up by being the partner who is responsible for initiating this inticmacy and vulnerability and not getting those needs met. I guess the only thing to do would be to eliminate him from my life and move on, but that's not really condusive to reconciling, eh?

The sad part is, I can tell you the day I met him, that I knew there was something about him. We didn't even date for another two years, but I knew when we finally did, that he would be it for me. Never again has another man tempted or intrigued me like he did. Not that I didn't look, and not that I didn't see his faults, but that I was completely happy to live with him for the rest of my life and figure it out. Fight, have babies, get through the tough stuff.

I have no desire for another man in my life, because I know he was the only man that ever was in my heart.

You can heal with or without your spouse; however, you cannot heal the M alone.

MY fhw has many issues he needs to work through. He won't go to MC anymore because he said it made him worse. I think that is only because it made him see things he didn't like. We would have an arguement and I would get upset. He would then throw at me that he can't heal until I heal and that by me "bringing stuff up" He couldn't heal.. What? He has a drinking problem but won't see that either. I have finally admitted to myself that I was enabling him to drink by making excuses. It wasn't that bad, he wasn't mean, blah blah. I told him he had to stop. He said no, he wasn't ready. Also, through the reconciliation, he never really tried, couldn't tell me what he wanted, blah.. Couldn't commit 100%, I did all the work. So, with all of this, we have seperated. Until he figures out what is important to him, we don't have a chance. He won't go to AA, he won't see an IC. He tells me how miserable he is, but when asked what is he going to to about it, he says I keep pushing him... Whatever.

What I am trying to say, IMHO, you can't be part of a successful couple if you don't know how to be successful by yourself. My husband needs to figure out what he wants for himself before he can figure out what he wants from this marriage. Yes, IMHO your husband needs to heal himself before he can help you..

Hang in there.

You can heal with or without your spouse; however, you cannot heal the M alone.

I think this may be it. I'm to a point where I might be able to finally heal myself. But I am stuck because I can't heal myself completely without either leaving the marriage or having a capable partner to work at it. And because he has been working on himself, rather than the marriage, I'm feeling the tension to move on.

Coping2010 - just in case you didn't read my profile, we've been dealing with infidelity now for 5 years. It's really gotten past the point of "hanging in there" for me. I'm really tired of hanging. His issues are deep seated and are not going to be resolved in another year. Maybe not ever. But I'm not going to wait that long for someone who can be married to me in a responsible, adult manner.

You sound like you need to 180 and get into you.

I am for a WS getting their issues fixed but you dont just do that and go OK I am better now back to the M.

he is not meeting your needs to be a spouse right now and you have three choices.

1) Stay as is

2) Fight for what you want and it will get ugly

3) 180 and live a life and let him prove himself to you.

I am in two myself and would rather fight than pretend everything is cool because it is clearly not.

My sympathy and understanding for her FOO and whatever issues is gone completely. She can treat me better than AP and if not I am gone and opur M will be dificult enough she may leave.

I need her help to R and right now IU feel like your H much like my wife really gives you little consideration .... just like when he was in the affair.

There is a book that's been around for awhile called His Needs Her Needs. Quote about the book:Marriage works only when each spouse takes the time to consider the other's needs and strives to meet them. In His Needs, Her Needs, Willard Harley identifies the ten most vital needs of men and women and shows husbands and wives how to satisfy those needs in their spouses. He provides guidance for becoming irresistible to your spouse and for loving more creatively and sensitively, thereby eliminating the problems that often lead to extramarital affairs. It's a good book and his reaction to the exercises will tell you alot.

While you heal yourself, I understand what you are saying. Mine had a cycle of I triggered, my triggers led to him going into depression. He wasn't strong enough for me to rely on him for support because his depression cycles were hell on both of us.Now it is a totally different story. He's done some heavy work on himself and is so much stronger. Recently,I asked for his calendar. He printed it out without any question of what made me ask for it out of the blue. He said he just wanted to support me in whatever I felt I needed. I said that's great but I wanted it online because you've inputed all of our schedules and I just wanted to go off of yours to edit rather than create my own. I've healed enough to trust that he is still on the right path. I don't need to see what's on his agenda of his comings and goings.

One more thing, when your h is truly there for you...you will know and it will speed up your healing in my opinion.

[This message edited by alluringillusion at 11:08 AM, September 8th (Wednesday)]

I know that there are many couples on here who had success using an IC as a MC. I'm not sure that's working for you here.

We both did IC separately for months. At some point, my IC encouraged us to start MC because she thought that two people in counselling separately often start moving down very different paths. Our MC was important to our healing process as a couple - we did our individual healing as well, and I totally agree that no one can heal you, you must heal yourself. But after infidelity, there is healing that needs to be done together, too, and it sounds like that is part of what you are searching for. IMHO, I think that finding a new MC that would be a lot of help for you right now. I realize you've been to a lot of different counsellors, and that can get exhausting. But I also think that you really love your WH and are not ready to walk away from the M. A MC that is not involved with your WH on an individual basis might be very beneficial. Good luck.

I think that finding a new MC that would be a lot of help for you right now. I realize you've been to a lot of different counsellors, and that can get exhausting. But I also think that you really love your WH and are not ready to walk away from the M. A MC that is not involved with your WH on an individual basis might be very beneficial. Good luck.

Actually, I fear a counselor not actively involved with my husband's IC will encourage me to leave. His IC/MC has hope for us. And she said in 90% of the cases she has dealt with in a similar situation as ours, she would not have that kind of hope.

I actually really recommend her as a MC. She's fantastic. She not only listens to you, she probes to get to the underlying meaning of the words. She's not afraid to call on your actions, and asks the right questions. And she does EMDR which helped a lot with my PTSD.