SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My story:

I'm both a BS and a WS but I identify myself as a WS.

H was my first boyfriend. I was 16 when we started 'going out'.

Around 4.5 yrs into our relationship I had sex with his best friend.

We were married shortly after and I swore I would never tell.

Around 5 years later I had started spending a lot of time hanging out with a few coworkers from work. We had some crazy, fun parties. My H was friends with these people too. One of the coworkers is female and the other is male. They were both M.

The female friend is a SA. She let me know she was interested in having sex with me and with our male coworker. We all flirted. After a party one night she & I had a 3some with my H. Her H didn't know and wouldn't have approved. They later divorced (for other reasons).

Around that time I found emails my H sent to 2 separate women asking them to meet him for lunch or sex.

Shortly after finding the emails I went to a party at the male friend's house. I got so drunk in the course of the evening I blacked out. I 'came to' with my male friend kissing me. I drifted in and out of consciousness and was aware of kissing him back and going to 2nd base.

I told my H about the incident. When he got angry about it I let him know I was aware of the emails he'd been sending. We opened up and asked each other about any other infidelity. We both denied anything else besides the kissing and emails.

I changed jobs and we stopped hanging out with my coworkers. The only people I hung out with anymore were my H's sister and her H and their children.

2 years ago my BIL hit on me. Two years later we'd sent probably over a thousand texts and a lot of emails. In November 09 we started a PA.

Part of the reason BIL & I had started talking in earnest was because of his intense jealousy over his wife wanting to hang out with my H's old best friend. I had also started talking to him again. H was very uncomfortable with me talking to his old best friend - they had lost touch over the years.

This year H & I reconnected with my old male coworker who I'd 'made out' with. He and his wife are now swingers. H has always been more sexually adventurous than me. We met some of their friends and had a couple of nights of 'fun' with these other two couples.

My H was very pleased with my openness with the swingers. He & I were spending a lot of time reconnecting. He was more attracted to and in love with me than ever. We were both about to start new jobs and his was going to include travel. He felt like he needed to let me know everything before he started leaving town.

D-Day 05/10

In the middle of the night, H wakes me up and tells me that right after our wedding he'd started a short PA with a girl from work. She was one of the people he'd been emailing for 'sex or lunch'.

When I asked if there was anything more he said shortly after the first PA he had 2 ONSs with his friend's sister. He didn't know the girl well and they never had contact outside of the 2 nights they had sex.

He also told he'd had a 5 month long PA with the other sister, who was one of the girls I'd caught him emailing. I'd basically caught him in the middle of the affair but he'd denied it then, just like I'd denied everything. Up until D day he'd had lunch with OW every few months but no sex in 5 years. They'd been best friends in high school.

I dropped the bombs. I admitted to the short PAs with both his best friend (10 yrs ago) and BIL (recent).

Turns out he'd also spent a large sum of money on a stripper and that he would have had sex with her if he'd had a condom. He'd also recently started an ad on adult friend finder without telling me, which is largely what prompted him to confess. He admits he's a porn addict and he has stopped watching it.

The next day he informed his sister. She told his entire family. This has been very hard because our children were all best friends. She now hates my H but we're not sure why because he didn't do anything to her. He's as much a victim as she is. We're NC with everyone but H was hoping he would be able to maintain a relationship with the cousins at the very least.

I think H is most hurt by the first PA with his best friend, and especially that I'd kept contact with him over the years. He's also very hurt by the damage to his family. He's feeling somewhat shunned by them - they're rallying around SIL and only his mom really talks to him. We ran into his mom at a restaurant recently and she informed us that she was there to meet with his 2 sisters and 2 of his brothers, one of which was visiting from out of state. He'd been explicitly excluded at his sister's request. We caught sight of BIL/SIL as we were leaving (before everyone else had arrived). H is stressing about future holidays and birthdays because they've always been big family events. I worry about running into them around town as we'd just had that very close call.

I don't feel any anger or animosity towards the H or his OW. Mostly I just feel a tremendous amount of regret, sadness, guilt, shame over the things I've done & the hurt and damage I've caused, some fear of what the future holds, relief now that everything is out in the open, gratefulness and a lot of love to H for staying with me, and hope for a successful R.

Hi working it out, and welcome to SI. You've been all over the map, haven't you? It's good to see you here and I hope you find what you're looking for. Lots of support and insight to be found here .

Please, if you haven't already, start with the Healing Library (top left on your screen). It will probably help you a lot.

And I hope I'm not overstepping my boundaries here, but I hope you realize that healing is not built on gratitude and hope alone. It involves work, lots of it. I often find it hard, but it is rewarding and fullfilling.

Wiser ones than me will soon be along. Welcome!

~L.

edited for typos.

[This message edited by leftoolate at 3:54 PM, September 4th (Saturday)]

Welcome to SI. Not much to say. Is your H on board with working it out too? It sounds like he is, so hopefully that is the case.

Stick around and read what you can.

Whew! You've lived a soap opera! How old are you & how old are your kids?

OK, you are here so you want help and good for you! That's not an easy step to take.

Let's take our eyes off the sexual ball because it's a red herring, and let me introduce you to the concept of boundaries.....

I'm both a BS and a WS but I identify myself as a WS.

This is an excellent start! You are in charge of you. Your H is in charge of himself.

You can control you. You cannot control him. And that's where boundaries start.

You are in control of your life. You can get to the point where you aren't making your decisions reactively to other people and their opinions, actions and wants, where the internal raging stops, where you can see BIL and SIL and feel sad and regretful, but at peace because you know you have done what is in your power to rectify your wrong.

How cool is that? You get to live your life consistent with your essential self and not compromise that person because of the need in the moment. Free at last!

The first question you have to ask yourself is "who is my essential self?" What are your values? You can't build boundaries around property you don't own. They will get torn down 100% of the time.

Are you honest?

Are you kind?

Do you have integrity?

Do you engage in self care?

Are you empathic and compassionate?

Are you loyal?

Are you generous?

Ask yourself what values are critically important to how you define yourself. (I'm big on the asking yourself stuff thing.)

Write it out and post it, but don't post what you think we want to hear because then no one can help you.

Answering that question is the first step towards living a life of freedom and joy where you are in charge. And you, sweetie, have never come remotely close to that.

You will find great support here.

I hope you realize that healing is not built on gratitude and hope alone.

Yep, it is a lot of work. We're both putting in the effort. H read "His Needs Her Needs" and I read a good chunk of it. We went to MC twice before our insurance changed (both started new jobs). We haven't gone back but we will keep the option open if we feel we need it.

How old are you & how old are your kids?

I'm 32. H is 34. DS is 9.

Ask yourself what values are critically important to how you define yourself. (I'm big on the asking yourself stuff thing.)

Write it out and post it, but don't post what you think we want to hear because then no one can help you.

Are you honest?

Are you kind?

Do you have integrity?

Do you engage in self care?

Are you empathic and compassionate?

Are you loyal?

Are you generous?

The answers to all of those things are, "it depends". My values have certainly changed over the years. I don't know that I could define them or put them out in a list. I'm not driven by any religious beliefs. I can be swayed in just about any direction by someone with a good argument for their cause. I try to rely on good common sense.

I am aware that I have boundary issues. I'm really not sure how to address them.

I'm not driven by any religious beliefs. I can be swayed in just about any direction by someone with a good argument for their cause. I try to rely on good common sense.

This jumped out at me , I felt the same way.

I don't have the time to spare now (dinner time around here), but I'll put my handle on this in a post later.

Just wanted to let you know up front (and leave a 'marker' in my mind).

~L.

I can be swayed in just about any direction by someone with a good argument for their cause.

I get this one. I used to be a trial lawyer so I was trained to be able to argue both sides of whatever.

Nice opening for OM -- "we're both adults, we aren't hurting anyone, why not?"

Why not indeed?

Because..... I am honest and kind and have integrity, etc. I just sort of forgot that part.

I try to rely on good common sense.

Well, clearly that isn't working for you.

Today is yard work day so I'll cogitate on this while I'm doing that mindless work -- it will be good for me as it will give me something else to think about besides my own fucked up situation.

SI just keeps on giving.

OK, let's take a different tack here.

When you think, for example, about your SIL, what do you feel?

Let's say the answer is "I feel guilty."

Why?

Let's say the answer is "because my actions hurt her."

So why would you care if you have no core values? You wouldn't.

So given the Q & A above (once a lawyer, always a lawyer!) wouldn't you say one of your values is kindness? Empathy?

When you feel bad, it's so hard to let yourself feel it. But try to do that. And let me tell you, it seriously sucks. Then name the feeling. That sounds so basic, but it isn't. They actually teach that in grade school here, and a language to accompany the feeling. I think it's brilliant.

Then ask yourself "why do I feel bad? What part of me did I violate?"

For every bad feeling, there is a corresponding positive value.

Every bad feeling tells you there is something good and pure and hopeful in you that you have betrayed. But the good and pure and hopeful can only be born if you let yourself feel the feeling. Birth is always painful but miraculous.

I'm still thinking -- let me know if that resonates with you.

Well, clearly that isn't working for you.

This made me laugh. Clearly, it hasn't worked.

Then ask yourself "why do I feel bad? What part of me did I violate?"

For every bad feeling, there is a corresponding positive value.

I get what you're saying. The fact that I feel bad means there's a decent person in here somewhere.

BIL hit on me. So many thoughts went through my mind. If I tell H & SIL will she hate me? Will we still be able to get the children together? Will all hell break loose?

I was put in the middle of a very fucked up situation. I didn't chose to be in that position. For the longest time I thought I was just trying to help both BIL & SIL. I know, absolutely, what ended up happening was wrong.

My core person is someone that would try to help another person I care about in any way I can. I hurt a lot of people in the process of trying to help. I wonder how many A's start out that way? ...he just needed someone to talk to...

The fact that I feel bad means there's a decent person in here somewhere.

Well, let's get that poor woman whose in there somewhere the tools to liberate herself! She's been locked up long enough and she has an M to repair and a child to raise.

Let me next introduce you to the concept of active verbs as they relate to you. When you use the pronoun "I" it should be followed by an active verb.

BIL hit on me.

You were just an innocent bystander minding your own business and out of the blue, he hit on you, right?

Typically, little things lead to slightly bigger things which lead to blown up lives.

When did the flirtation start prior to BIL doing the formal hit? What part did you play? You probably liked the attention and it seemed harmless, but because you have no boundaries, there was nothing to stop it.

BIL didn't hit on you out of the blue. He knew you didn't have boundaries. Women like us are sitting ducks.

Look at the difference between "BIL hit on me" and "I, working-it-out, failed to put appropriate boundaries in place in my relationship with BIL thereby inviting him to hit on me."

The first statement make make you feel better in the moment. But notice who is in charge there? (Hint: it's not you). The second statement may make you feel bad, but you are in charge.

I was put in the middle of a very fucked up situation.

Again, who is charge here?

"I put myself in the middle of a very fucked up situation by not enforcing appropriate boundaries with my BIL."

I didn't choose to be in that position.

"I chose to put myself in that position by failing to communicate to BIL and lying to my H about what was going on."

If I tell H & SIL will she hate me? Will we still be able to get the children together? Will all hell break loose?

So at this point all of the sudden you want to be in charge? Because you handled it so well up to that point?

You are in charge of you. H is in charge of H. SIL is in charge of SIL. When you didn'nt understand that and tried to control them, you were trying to do something that is simply not in your power.

Trying to control other people is just another manifestation of not having any boundaries. Because your well being is dependent on them being OK with you, you decided to manage the flow of information to which they were clearly entitled. If your well being is dependent on you, you won't feel the need to control them. Or so I'm told -- I have a loooong way to go.

And I'm willing to bet that one reason you didn't tell your H is because you were ashamed of your part it in.

I would try to help another person I care about in any way I can. For the longest time I thought I was just trying to help both BIL & SIL.

You say "in any way I can". Do you see how wide open that leaves you? How about "I will help another person in any way I can which does not compromise any of my values, including the value of self care (see below)."

The trying to help BIL and SIL by having sex with BIL has me flummoxed. How did you think having sex with BIL was going to help him and SIL? That's a sincere question.

I wonder how many A's start out that way? ...he just needed someone to talk to...

My guess is a lot. But again, you need to change your focus. I'm a care taker by nature and by choice. I took care of everyone, no matter how pissed off it made me, and aren't a wonderful human being? Ummm, no. A miserable, pissed off, mass of quivering resentment would be more accurate.

But the very laudable trait of giving made me vulnerable to OM. All the sudden here was someone who wanted to take care of me. I wasn't taking care of myself or teaching my H how to take care of me, so quack quack.

Try going back to your original post and reformulating your story using the active voice and then post it.

You asked a sincere question. I wrote out a ton of lengthy replies... none of them seem quite right.

In a nutshell, I don’t know if I could have married H without having experienced sex with someone else. I thought BIL was dealing with a similar kind of issue, an overwhelming curiosity about what "it" would be like with someone else. If he could just get it out of his system like I was able to…

Your questions and statements have given me a lot to think about. BIL really did hit on me out of the blue. I wish I could figure out what it is about me that seems to invite that sort of behavior.

I'm not clear on what having good boundaries means. But what you're saying makes sense.

[This message edited by working it out at 3:05 PM, September 7th (Tuesday)]

BIL really did hit on me out of the blue.

Actually, no, he didn't. Which you already know because you said:

I wish I could figure out what it is about me that seems to invite that sort of behavior.

So there you go -- you know you are doing something. That's big progress. That is the beginning of taking responsibility for you which sounds scary and horrible because its so much easier and appealing to let someone else -- really, anyone in the room will do -- be in charge of you because you can't be trusted with such a big job.

Remember the end goal: you are in charge of you so you get to live a life filled with joy and peace.

I thought BIL was dealing with a similar kind of issue, an overwhelming curiosity about what "it" would be like with someone else.

You do know that you are not the first woman BIL has pulled this on right?

In other words, there was not one thing special about you?

You got played.

Are you starting to see how wide open your "I'll do anything to help someone" standard is leaves you?

If he could just get it out of his system like I was able to.

You don't have it out of your system and it has not one thing to do with sex.

This is you reaching for the next thing that is going to help you cope with your lack of self worth.

Coping is going to be a big issue for you near term. I'm just warning you.

There is a period of time between realizing you have no self esteem because you haven't lived a life that is worthy of your self esteem and being able to put some estimable building acts between you and that moment that you can build on that is seriously dangerous.

The temptation to drift back into bad choices because you haven't had the time to build the good feelings that good choices create can be overwhelming.

So, how are we going to help you cope?

What are your triggers? What makes you saddest and most desperate? When do you most want to throw in the towel?

Don't worry about not understanding the boundaries thing right off. You are learning a new language. You aren't going to speak it fluently after a few days.

It seems that if neither you or your husband knew that you would sleep with other people throughout your relationship, then I would be asking one question of myself. I think the first question I would ask myself is "Am I mature enough to have gotten married, or to be in a committed relationship?" If you went into the relationship on the pretense that you would also see other people, then it I don't see how any of this could surprise either of you. In my eyes, swinging relationships can never work, because they are built on infidelity. And maybe your husband was more "in love" with you than ever when you were swinging with him, because he was thrilled that you were doing what he wanted.

I hope you realize the value of your life and what it means to have self respect. I hope you work everything out and find the path that really was meant for you.

The "swinging" thing is troubling for sure. It's not something that a lot of us understand so the A doesn't look all that different.

If the sexual activity is between adults with the full knowledge and consent of both spouses, I don't think it qualifies as an A.

I got the sense that workingitout was on some level not in consent with the "swinging" thing in that she felt shame over it. If she's feeling shame, it is violative of her value system. But maybe that's me projecting.

For sure the relationship with the BIL was an A. Her story illustrates exactly how slippery the slope is.

This M may not survive, but that doesn't mean that workingitout can't heal herself.

How goes it workingitout?

BS and WS here as well.

Swinging and infidelity are very different. One is done with full support and knowledge of your spouse, and 99% of the time it is done together. The other is secretive and done without the consent or support of your spouse. Swinging involves a relationship with a lot of trust and great communication. It won't work if both parties are not 100% into doing it. If one person is pulled along unwillingly, I can see how it would feel like cheating.

It sounds like you and your H need to go to individual and marriage counseling to find out for yourselves, and together, what kind of marriage you want. Open? Semi-open with swinging? Closed/monogamous? The IC will also help you deal with your feeling about what has happened, and hopefully will help you figure out why you were open to things like your PA with the BIL.

I've been really busy. I'll respond to this a little later.

What are your triggers? What makes you saddest and most desperate? When do you most want to throw in the towel?

I'm going to consider these to be rhetorical questions.

"Am I mature enough to have gotten married, or to be in a committed relationship?"

No, I don't think either of us was mature enough.

I don't see how any of this could surprise either of you.

It doesn't really surprise either of us. Doesn't make it less painful though.

How goes it workingitout?

Some days are great. Some days suck. I'm not going to bed angry so I'm considering that to be a good thing.

Re: Swinging

We're not doing anything with that right now. H & I have agreed it's not healthy for us with everything else that's going on.

Re: IC & MC

Some days I really just want a referee, or at least the ability to have an instant replay. We need help, but mostly in communicating. I don't know how a MC can help because they wouldn't be with us in the middle of our arguments and neither of us sees the issues the same when the argument is over.