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I feel like I am going in circles.. coming back to same points.. again and again

After reading a bunch of stuff on codependency, victim mentality, drama triangles, various addictions and a lot more stuff about how brain works

It all comes down to I somehow feel responsible for other people feelings (Hint of codependency/enmeshment/blurry emotional boundaries). I get very enmeshed and that makes me an easy target for manipulation. I feel if I do something or act in some way, I can influence other person’s feelings.

There are no addictions in my family .. I was treated/pampered well.. My opinions were valued and I made decisions for myself (consulting with the family) But in midst of all this I made sure I was behaving in certain way in order to be liked. My family or friends never made me feel responsible for their problems. Even when I did feel so I discussed it out with my parents and things would come back to normal. When I look at it I feel so stupid ..

Why would I behave like that?? My bros are opposite of me n still they were treated equally. I cant warp my head around this ..

Those fucker POSs could play on this What a mind fuck it was

I am so pissed off right now .. what do I do with this? Its such a pathetic “why”…

Whatever crap has happened has given me all the more reasons to believe that I cant be likeable .. its such a stupid shit ..

Ah, EF. I was just thinking to myself that I hadn't seen you around in awhile and was wondering if you had given up. And here you are.

You do seem to be going in circles. Spinning your wheels and getting getting nowhere. Frustrating and crazy making, I'm sure. But taking a victim mentality won't get you anywhere either.

Those fucker POSs could play on this What a mind fuck it was

There was a time that I got very angry at MOM as well. Felt a bit taken advantage of. He played well into my weaknesses. But there had to come a time that I realized and took responsibility for the fact that I let him. I didn't stand on any moral ground and I soaked it all in like a sponge. I did that, not him. Had I been healthy, he could have said or done anything and gotten nowhere fast. So it was me all along that let him in. And it's the same with you.

So you have no addictions in your family and were treated well. But you clearly have an unhealthy need to be liked. So much so that you degrade yourself so that others can lift you up, IMHO. You have wrapped yourself in a thick blanket of guilt and shame and self degradation. If you feel bad enough about yourself and beat yourself up enough, someone will come along and tell you that it's not so bad, say you are a good person and hand you that branch to lift you up (this the comment on being unlikable). But you need to learn to lift yourself up. You have spent a lot of time trying to find some external reason for your behavior. In doing so, you will never get where you want to be.

It's possible that you have found that this behavior had always worked for you. It doesn't now and you will have to find new coping mechanisms. I have two daughters. I see them trying different strategies to get results they want. They are masters of manipulation. They have tried crying, guilting us, sweet talk, whining til we can't stand it anymore. We learn as children what works for us and what doesn't. For me, it has always been tears. It would get my husband every time. He would bring up something important. I would cry. He would feel bad and drop it. And so the cycle continues. Until DDay when all that changed. I still cry, but we plow through it.

Be responsible for your feelings. You say you feel you are responsible for others feelings, but I think you are making others responsible for yours.

Hi WOES

I do take the responsibility of what happened. When I started looking at what happened, it just din make any sense. Forget answering CL’s questions, I was dumbstruck when I looked at what I did.

There is this very geeky side of me which I have forever disowned. For me things need to make sense. Broken down to the last bit and they need to fall in place .. rational, scientific, mathematical explanation. All the reading kind of helps me in understanding the behavioral patterns. But in the end it comes down to, I picked up a behavioral pattern which worked against me. And still it doesn’t make sense .. I mean WHY would I do that??

I guess I am just discovering my weakness and the struggle that I have is there is no rational reason for those weaknesses to exists .. I think I was kind of looking for one root cause which explains everything..

I need to work on my weaknesses to protect myself and our defenses work against ourselves is ironical to say the least.

On the other hand, having 2 fold survival mechanism is amazing. Nature/god/aliens/random coincidences whatever it may be .. it has given us defense mechanisms against ourselves. Isnt it mind boggling?

I guess I am all over place.

The point I m trying to make is, I am looking for a concrete action plan. And every time I come back to where I started. Its frustrating.

EF, you and I have "chatted" a bit and I think I've shared my thoughts about this before, so if I'm repeating feel free to ignore.

I think it's assumed the poor choices we make come from our weaknesses. I personally believe some can come from our strengths that are horribly misused.

I don't think you are coming from shame or an unhealthy need to be liked. I think you have learned how to get what you want by manipulating those that love you. The old adage of you can get more flies with honey than vinegar is something you caught on to very early and your observation skills and intelligence made that a very easy study.

I think you have desires that might not feel comfortable to you given your environment and you devised work arounds that placated while getting you what you wanted.

Forget the OP's. I've never gotten the feeling you got "played". I think you're quite capable of being the "playa".

You've never really had to face the cold motivations because you've never been called on your shit. Now you have and props for actually looking at this shit squarely. It can be a pretty uncomfortable reality when you get rid of all the pretty trappings and see the cold calculating that can exist along side of your affection and genuine feelings for others. Those two things shouldn't go together, right?

But they can, actually. Recognize them and figure out healthy ways to use that drive and intellect while also instituting protections for the people in your life.

There are places in this world for double edged swords and fighting for others is an excellent use of this tool. It's satisfying and healing. You get to know what you're truly capable of and others can benefit from it as well.

That's what I've always gotten from your posts. I may be off (and projecting a bit ) so just try it on and see if it fits.

I do take the responsibility of what happened.

I said to take responsibility for your feelings not what happened. Two different things here. Looking for a simple rational explanation for you behavior takes those feelings more or less out of the equation.

I remember early on when I was looking for my whys I stumbled on codependency articles. Reading it I was thinking "yes! That's me!" I copied and pasted and sent things to HT. I'm pretty sure I expected a response along the lines of "I think you are on to something here" or "that explains it!" But he became angry. I was perplexed at the time why he would be angry. I was figuring out my whys after all. But it was the way in which I was doing it. I was trying to excuse my behavior. It was my fault necessarily because I am this or I am that. Sure my codependency plays into how I behave. But it doesn't excuse my behavior. And I fear that is what you are trying to do by finding a reason that has a nice bow on top to explain the whole thing. It just doesn't work like that.

Figure out how those behaviors were working for you then, why they can't work for you now, and how you can change them. I will tell you that it's constantly a work in progress.

@UO:

Yes. You have mentioned this before. But I still don’t understand what exactly you are trying say. I do get a sense that what you say rings a bell somewhere but cant really put my finger on it.

What is the strength that you are talking about? That I can read people and figure them out? Yeah I think its true. And then you say use it to my advantage? I see that how it will be useful as well. But wouldn’t that be a manipulation again?

That’s where I am confused. I feel like a kid who is exposed to the world and I don’t know how to interact with ppl..

I've never gotten the feeling you got "played". I think you're quite capable of being the "playa".

I do agree.

But when u say that I manipulated the ppl who love me to get what I want .. what is it that I wanted? When I look back yes.. it does seem like a cold calculation move. As ironic as it may sound, I always operated from a place where I din want to hurt ppl no matter what. In case of POSs as well, at that time I just din want to hurt them. I din want to hurt CL, my parents. I kept handling situations where I got a sense that I somehow managed to take the hurt away. I just did not put everything together. Like CL, my family, CL’s family and POSs .. all of them were part of MY life. For me it was like CL, and our families were a part of one thread and POSs of another. I just had to make sure nobody was hurting. Pretty fucking twisted but that’s how it was.

I did know that CL would be hurt. Really hurt. But I couldn’t imagine the magnitude.. and when I faced it shook me at my core. Before I did hurt ppl immensely but somhow I managed to work it out in the end. And as long as everybody else was find I was fine.

That’s what I struggle with the most. I have seen myself as somebody’s daughter, sister, best friend, girlfriend, wife. If I take out all these relations and people out from my life, I cant define myself. That’s scary and sad at the same time.

What bothers me the most is POS1 managed to mock CL mock him?? I would kill that bastard if he ever comes across. As soon as I start raging I realize it was me who enabled it and then I feel so helpless ..

I am really trying to understand what you are pointing out.. is that it??

@WOES:

I agree. The thing is, no matter what I come with its not going to pacify CL. Hell I can see how certain things enables my behavior and still I am not ok with those reasons. Doesn’t excuse my behavior no matter what. I am trying to make sense so that I feel ok with myself. You know like, yes this was the reason and couldn’t have behaved any other way even if I wanted to. That’s the kind of explanation I am looking for .. just for myself .. and everytime I encounter that no.. I could have chosen differently. It was just my choice .. which makes it all the more harder. I still wake up every morning with sheer horror shivering and thinking what the hell happened.

Doing things only for “ME” is an alien concept for me. Like if I am doing something bcz I am a good daugheter, sis, gf, wife. If I am none of this why bother? I do see how wrong this way of thinking is. If somebody else sais omething like this I would be smacking that person asking what the hell is wrong with u. But when it comes to *me* I just cant seem to do it for myself.

I define myself with respect to others. If I take them out its serious identity crisis. Even while writing this I can see how senseless it is. Still that’s the way I feel.

As ironic as it may sound, I always operated from a place where I din want to hurt ppl no matter what

Oh, I don't think that sounds ironic at all. That's what I meant by cold calculation side by side with affection for people in your life. People define words like they mean the same things to all. Affection is reflective of the person feeling it.

Yes, you manipulated and yes you cared. Both can exist WHEN the result is paramount. I've posted that before to you or maybe it was in a PM and you weren't understanding.

Look, EF. I don't know what it is you wanted. Could have been different every time. A new pair of shoes. A trip. Warmth of praise or accolades. Sexual fun. Doesn't have to be the same results but used the same process.

I learned to read people very young. I would seriously watch my moms pupil dilation and facial expression. I'd know when to be invisible. It's very easy to sum up someone and know what they enjoy and how tapping into that will pull them in. It's a far subtler skill set that flattery as that's pretty transparent.

The payoff is people will be far more amenable to your requests when they come from such a complimentary source.

I know that using those techniques makes me ill. It hits MY self respect even if I don't respect the other person. If I don't like "you" I'm not gonna act like I do. If I do like you I'm not going to use your interests and soft spots to score favors. It would make me feel disgusted with myself beyond belief.

People want to believe so you don't even have to be that good at it. Shit, read general. The crumbs some people accept yet declare they're in R breaks my heart...so chances are you had a receptive audience to begin with in regards to your family and even CL.

Now, what do you want to be? Do you want to declare honestly what you desire or how you feel without using the hook first? Let it stand honestly on its own merit and accept the rejection of those you care about when they see the whole truth? If so, use your talents in a career in marketing and let your friends and family see the real EF.

It's probably only ugly to you because you've kept it hidden so long. It's how you are. Use it for good, not evil.

Interesting points ..

I will just blurt out whatever is going in my head here otherwise I am pretty sure it will explode.

I never wanted to “use” ppl. It makes me sick even looking at my behavior and accepting it. And now I don’t know where to draw the line. Where is the line in knowking somebody, liking them and spending a quality time together.. sharing interests AND using/manipulating them? It sounds like a odd question but I never thought “I know these things about u n I am gonna use them to make you do this”. I think at the crux I want to be assured that I mean something to somebody. I matter to them. I guess that’s where whole enmeshment/codependency comes into picture.I read about healthy relationships n I think yeah that’s what I want .. I thought that’s what I was doing turns out otherwise. I see what I do and I don’t want to do it .. and I m so clueless how to do that ..

I am sorry if this posts sounds crazy but I m literally pulling my hair.

think at the crux I want to be assured that I mean something to somebody. I matter to them. I guess that’s where whole enmeshment/codependency comes into picture.

this isn't codependent, its just dependent. At its core, this is a normal and common NEED. We all need to feel significant. But for you its out of control. And beyond that, your method of fulfilling that need has thus far been very unhealthy, for you AND those you've involved.

saying "co" suggests that you are still looking to dole out blame, not yet ready to carry the full weight of your choices.

there is also a good bit of victim mentality in here, suggesting the same thing.

I always operated from a place where I din want to hurt ppl no matter what

when we do bad things, we usually find a way to convince ourselves how good we are. We do good things to "make up" for the bad, we compare our "bad" to some other "worse bad"("at least I didn't..." funny how always come out on top) to make ourselves feel better.

Chances are WE are someone else' comparison. I, am someone else's "well at least I never..."

I think this is what you are doing here with the above quote, because it is clearly not accurate, specifically those last 3 words "no matter what"

IMHO, I think you need to carefully reevaluate what "significance" means to you. As well as how much its worth to you, because I think *there* is where your "no matter what" resides.

good luck

saying "co" suggests that you are still looking to dole out blame, not yet ready to carry the full weight of your choices.

I have to disagree - that is not what the term co-dependent means.

In the CODA program, you learn to take responsibility for yourself, and your own health and happiness. It has nothing to do with looking to place blame elsewhere. It does have everything to do with not depending on someone or something else to fulfill your own needs.

We all need to feel significant. But for you its out of control. And beyond that, your method of fulfilling that need has thus far been very unhealthy, for you AND those you've involved.

I agree with your statement here, but our need to feel significant has to come from within - not from someone else.

I didn't say that was what codependent meant. I said that is what HER use of "co" suggested to me.

SLH -ok- didn't read it that way.

understandable... I just re-read it, should've added "to me" or "IMO" in there.

no worries.