SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This is my first thread on here and only my 3rd post.

A brief history. I was married to a much older man I met when I was 18. We married when I was 24 and the marriage started to head south when I was 28.

Just before I turned 30 I started chatting to a man who was doing the same running program as me. We talked running and life, but nothing detailed, although he would occasionally flirt I always changed the subject or batted that off.

Then I suffered 2 serious bereavements in just over a week (the second being my young dad, suddenly) and this guy started texting to check in with me each day. From there the EA developed (he sent gifts and all sorts), 6 months or so later PA. A month later I left my husband (who promptly attacked me and was arrested) because our marriage was a mess and had been for some time. I had feelings for someone else. It was over.

The MM I was talking to remained married but our A intensified as I was newly single. This continued for over 3 years until he walked out on his wife on Christmas day and showed up at my house. To say I was unimpressed was an understatement and I sent him back the next day to deal with his situation like an adult. He did and our A ended, there was an unexpected DDay. She and I spoke VERY briefly and that was it. But the DDay pushed me into quite a heavy depression and I was in a very bad place. I reached out to him and instead of him telling me to go away, we reconnected.

This is something I want to tell all blinded APs - it's a DRUG. I felt better for a while but soon after the guilt, the pain, the uncertainty... it was all back. I was in counselling but I continued to see MM and we went to America for a break together (we reside in the UK, although an hour away from each other) and while we were there I started seeing all the things that meant I would never want to be with him. I didn't end it there and when we got back one of my friends told his wife I was furious at first but I have forgiven her now, this came from a good place, from concern for me and for his wife)

He called me after NC for 4 days and left a voicemail threatening me to leave them alone. I called back immediately and gave him a mouthful, his BW was with him and took the phone off him. This was where I learnt that even after DDay2 he was still lying to her about what had happened.

He had even told her that I had found out he was in America for work and I had followed him (I showed her evidence that he had actually picked me up, we'd flown together, eaten together, spent days together). he was still there for a long section of this and called me names, attempted to throw me off balance by telling her my secrets but by now, all I could feel was that I owed the BW something... and the only thing I could give her was the truth. It was hard for me too. It doesn't all cast me in a glowing light, obviously. I forced him to tell her the truth where I could, I sent evidence as she had asked, where I could not.

This was both the worst and best thing that could have happened. Any residual fog evaporated and although I am still hurt and anxious that he could say the things he said (knowing they are untrue, just to try to save his skin) and also knowing that he, even after being caught, could still claim to want to save his marriage but then lie to her.

Last night she text me again and asked some questions. I answered them honestly but now I don't know what to do.

I know I should block her, for my own sake, but he's gaslighting her and I am in no position to suggest she seeks IC (which is helping me a lot, although I've a long way to go. Learning that there were reasons for my behaviour that were far beyond the death of my dad has been eye opening).

I know barring her number would be healthier for both of us in the long run but I have honest and genuine concerns for her well being (concerns I should have had years ago, you don't need to tell me, but they are from a real place now the fog has cleared)

I had genuine feelings for him, it's just that those feelings were not what I thought.

This is my story... thank you for reading and any advice would be most appreciated.

One piece of advice is that you will probably get more empathetic advice in the Wayward forum.

You ask what you should do regarding AP and his BW. What does your BH say? Does he know about your A? And if not, why do you feel that you ow BW the truth but not your BH? HE is the one you owe loyalty to.

Oh yeah, and your 'marriage heading south' is no excuse for engaging in an A. Nothing in the M caused the A, rather it's something in YOU. Figure out what that is both for yourself and also so that you can become a safe and healthy partner.

Apologies, I wasn't clear. I left my Husband. He's now my xH. I left him when I realised I had feelings for xMM. I should have left much sooner but it became the perfect storm (bereavement, xMM etc)

My xH's attempt on my life not withstanding, he was not a good man. Correct, no excuse. Haven't tried to make any.

I'm asking if I should block my xMM's BW. I am single and so I have no frame of reference on how much help I should now provide her. I answered her questions on the (very long) phone calls with her but she asked me not to block her and last night she was messaging me asking questions again. Which I answered truthfully (whether it contradicted or corroborated what he'd said. Very little corroborated).

I'm not looking for sympathy, to be frank. More, what others have done in the situation with the xMM's/ xMW BS?

He's clearly gaslighting her but I am in no position to offer any advice to her. She obviously wants answers and he's not providing them.

Do I block her or leave it open a while longer?

Should I tell her if I do, or just block?

And thank you for the advice on the forum, I don't know if I can move this?

" I was furious at first but I have forgiven her now,'

really? you're furious at a friend for telling a woman she was being lied to?

block both of them, stop worrying about them and especially, him.

I don't see much remorse in your posts about what you have done. this was a long term affair and you helped stab two people in the back.

Are you in IC?

[This message edited by sewardak at 9:35 AM, May 9th (Wednesday)]

Your situation makes me curious. Why was it okay to be having an A with this MM, but suddenly you were upset with him when he left his wife for you on Christmas Day? You cared about her feelings that day, but not the other 364 days per year? That confuses me.

I agree that is awful of him to do something so bad to his wife and/or family on Christmas day, but most OW in an active A would actually want their MM to leave their wife, Christmas Day or not probably would not make a difference.

Speaking from the perspective of a BS, yes, continue to give her all the truth you can, along with evidence that you are telling the truth. It's the least you could do.

immokk, you have given her the truth as you see it. It's time to block both of them and work on yourself.

I would block her. She needs to work this out with her H and you'd only be muddying things further. She is likely a smart woman, she eill know ehen he's lying or holdung back truths. Let her do this on her own. Remove yourself so she learns to do this her own way, which is to NOT have AP as a source. That only keeps the A part aluve for her. Do her a favor and block her from all sources and remain distant from both of them.

It sounds to me like you have already given quite a lot of information. If there's anything else she doesn't know, it's probably a small detail, right? She knows he intentionally continued the affair and took a trip to America with you. She knows he made up a story to make himself seem the least culpable.

I'm all about telling people things straight, so I would let her know that you're moving on and won't be answering any more questions, but you are deeply sorry and wish her well. If she is going to reconcile with him, they need to find a way to reestablish trust that doesn't involve her asking you. It needs to be between them.

The longer you keep the door of communication open, the more likely it is that she will expect continued contact. I know you want to make sure she has support, but obviously you are the last person who can be that support. This isn't a Life Time movie where the BW and OW team up to get revenge on the awful WH.

Hi all,

Thank you for the really helpful responses.

Yes, I was angry with my friend. I think feelings are more complex than seeing things in black at white. Initially, I was still in something of the fog.

To the person who said I have no remorse, I have plenty but perhaps my tone is such that it doesn't come across. My main aim was to make the post as factually accurate as possible, I was actually attempting to remove feeling from it, to this end.

In respect of the Christmas day thing, I never said any of it was okay. I learnt very quickly how to compartmentalize over the last few years (not only about the A but all of the other stuff too. The brain is both an impressive and daunting thing) and I know that my behaviour was selfish. Believe me. The Christmas day thing felt like a fingers up to her from him and, frankly, more of an encroachment on my life than I would have liked. As I said, I was in a bubble at this stage so that's how it felt at the time. I didn't want him there. I am being honest here as I don't believe lying to myself or anyone else, even strangers on the internet, helps anyone.

My therapist has been taking me through reframing my feelings in light of what is true and what is not (or fog). It's been very helpful to me and had his BW not contacted me I'd have stayed out of it. I was relieved it was over, to be honest, as I had begun to feel trapped (I understand this will sound quite strange but it's how I felt)

In respect of the blocking, thank you all for your perspectives. I completely understand that their relationship is none of my business but I did not reach out to her. I sent her whatever she asked for, as you say, the least I could do.

But she contacted me again last night (and I answered her again, as factually as I could (dates and locations, was part of what she wanted)).

I wanted perspectives as to how to now handle it going forward.

Regarding one comment about 'you told her the truth from your perspective'

I could not agree more. You're, of course, right. There are 3 sides to each story in life 'His, hers and the truth' but there are things that can be open to interpretation and there are clear and blatant lies (That I found out where he was staying in America is a clear lie, he actually drove me to the airport with him and we flew together) whereas him telling me he loved me is potentially open for interpretation.

I wanted to thank you all again for your replies.

I know that I have done something wrong and I am working on my reasons for that in IC and with myself. Any lack of remorse seen here is not so, it is simply the way I am trying to put this across and my 'typing tone'.

His BW had my apology, which was heartfelt and true. I see him and the whole thing for what it was and I am working on my own life.By the same token, I didn't know if the right thing to do was the block or to block but tell her I was going to or what.

Hence asking for perspectives on that.

Hm, sewardak, it looks like you just have skimmed over OP's post. Your post looks like knee-jerk reaction to the fact that immokk is AP.

I'm with the posters who advice to keep communication open. Information is what we need for healing. Her WH is not providing it, it looks.

And you owe her big time, so please, provide her information she needs.

But I suggest that you explain her that you want this communication to cease. I also disagree that you aren't in position to offer IC to her, you just have to word it properly. That she doesn't need IC to "fix her" or to "fix her marriage", but to get her through the trauma. You might want to direct her to this site, but I doubt that she will join (because you are here, so she will not feel secure).

It's hard to know what to say, exactly; I doubt that most BSs encounter an AP who is remorseful and willing to answer questions honestly.

I think what might be a helpful middle ground would be to tell her that you regret what you did and that you are working on trying to figure out why and how you allowed yourself to think it was okay to be involved with someone else's husband, and then tell her that you're willing to answer questions but that your goal, as someone above suggested, is for the communication to eventually cease. I know we advise WSs to give a timeline to their BS - perhaps, if you are inclined and have the time, you could provide something like that for her as well?

I don't know if you should give a possible end date - six months after their DDay, or a year, or some other date or timeframe, and/or if it would be a good idea to erect a boundary to minimize the contact, such as once a week or month, or once every three months, etc.

For ME? The first 6-8 months after DDay were focused on trying to collect information. It was another year or year-and-a-half where I was 'processing' what I'd learned. Plus, sometimes dates or other triggers (photos, for example) would trigger fresh reminders and new questions about what was happening then.

At some point, though, we have to see our WS for who s/he is and decide how to proceed. If, after so many months, he's still lying and gaslighting her, it becomes less about your answers, and more about what is she going to do - will she stay with this guy who has continued to show her no respect, or will she establish her own boundary where she removes him from her life?

I see no harm in telling her about this site. You needn't (and probably shouldn't) tell her your username, but it would be fair to tell her that you posted to ask for advice about how to proceed. She doesn't need to join, or if she does, she doesn't need to post; I know that many folks are helped just by reading here.

"Hm, sewardak, it looks like you just have skimmed over OP's post. Your post looks like knee-jerk reaction to the fact that immokk is AP."

isn't she?

sewardak, I'm sorry if this was triggering for you. I genuinely didn't mean for it to be.

I'm an xOW, you're correct. I think the point was that you didn't read my full post in necessarily the context my post was intended.

I'm doing what I can right now to make amends and my posting here was not to have anyone feel sorry for me but to give genuine perspectives on how I should deal with the BW contacting me for information (I should point out that, so far, she has been nicer to me than I deserve and I am genuinely sorry for what I have done).

They're a way after DDays and he is still lying quite blatantly to her and, although this is not my concern necessarily, she reached out to me for information. I have done my best to be honest with her and stick to facts.

Thank you to DarkHoleHeart and to BlueIris for your advice, I have decided I will leave her unblocked for now and put a time limit on it for myself.

As much as you all might hate the AP, and you have every right, we are people too. Although some of us never learn some of us do.

I have no true excuses other than to say my IC has made me see how vulnerable I had become and how I was, to an extent, taken advantage of. Some abuse and the death of two close relatives have led to attachment and abandonment problems, which I am working through.

The call from her, initially, was as helpful to help me completely clear the fog (and probably him too, she told me he was shocked at how much I told her) as it was to her to help her get some information.

My remorse is genuine and I am both saddened and shocked that even now he can't tell her the truth. She was understandably very upset and told her that he couldn't shake me, I was stalking him etc and made out to her he did not have a choice. It made me sad that he still couldn't give her the sight of him being fully responsible for his actions.

If she contacts me again I will, as DarkHoleHeart suggests, carefully direct her to IC for the trauma. I think this is excellent advice and I thank you for it. I really don't want to continue to be an interloper in her life, which is why I didn't know what I should say.

BlueIris, I am genuinely remorseful. It is up to her what she does about him and that is not my business but she said to me on the phone that the worst thing that she ever did was leaving work (there are no children, by the way). And it was an obvious comment on her inability to leave and how isolated he has made her and I felt the guilt double over. So, despite what some may think, I feel pretty dreadful for my part in this.

But let me just add one thing; the lies the WS tell are... incredible, both sides. Sometimes its only coming out of the fog that we see it. I told myself I wasn't lying to anyone (and I wasn't) and I compartmentalized her. She asked how I could do this, did I not feel bad. And I was honest. It was exactly what I told her. I couldn't think about her, so I didn't. I was lost and I found ways to justify it.

I was in a horrible place. It doesn't make it right but it does make him the mother of all liars.

He shouted at me that I was a lunatic while his wife and I were talking and I told him that he was the one who had lied to two people consistently for 3-4 years but it's me who needs help. It was the only time I fully engaged him on the first call.

He called me names. She told him to shut up.

She's an incredible woman and she deserves better than all of this.

it's not triggering me. I stand by my advice that you asked for.

block them both. you are overly concerned with this couple and especially his lying to both of you. who cares and that's their problem now.

work on yourself and why you did this.

sewardak, thank you for advice. I mean it, whatever place it comes from.

I'm actually not as concerned with his lies to me on the whole other than in so much as it helps me to break out of the fog. You've not been this side of this (for good reason) but the recognising the lies and how quickly the turn happens is actually very helpful, or rather, it was for me.

In respect of my concerns relating to his continued lies to his wife; perhaps because she keeps asking me about them and also, it's part of the remorse. I apolgise, I don't wish to debate this, I came for advice and you have given that (as have many others) and I thank you for it.

But part of my remorse is seeing everything much more clearly, and that includes the pain of another woman, that I helped create. I can't be both remorseful and that not bother me, that's a contradiction.

I think you need to look TRULY within yourself to find out why you feel the constant need to keep telling your story. My WH’s AP was dying to tell me her story. What she didn’t know is that, due to her becoming threatening, I had a conversation with my WH and told him to spill the beans or if I find anything new from his AP I’m out (or rather he’s out). I then had a conversation with her over the phone where I didn’t get into the details (as by then my WH was literally not capable to stop talking, he was telling me every little detail knowing that I may ask anything on the call) as I didn’t want to give her the satisfaction of “revenge”. Since then she started posted on FB publicly all the details she can think of which, luckily for my WH, I already knew of.

Listen, I know and you know that there are two sides of the story, his and yours (and of course the truth). I wouldn’t be intrested to hear anything from my WH’s AP except from the factual information: we met on x date and had sex twice. We went out for dinner on x date. We use/didn’t use a condom. Etc. I am not interested in her “he chased me, I have done nothing wrong” posts. These were two adults who knew what they are getting into.

So if you believe she has all the facts, which I imagine that by now she does, block and move on. However I wonder if you kept in contact for so long giving her “what she needed” just so you can show the MM the power you have. Be honest to yourself and answer this for yourself, not necessarily here. Because if you only wanted to help you would have given her a factual timeline with everything you can remember in one go and then wish her good luck and move on. But you’re indulging in your power to feed more and more info (some open to interpretation no doubt) to a distressed woman. If I would have been in your shoes I can’t imagine I would keep the wound open without getting anything out of it and I can guarantee you’re getting the satisfaction of digging at their marriage disguised under the Samaritan acts of being empathetic to the wife. I honestly doubt your good intentions. A person who’s changing is delivering the facts and moves on.

You asked for advice. Mine is that you've given her a lot of info already. You can't predict the future, so you don't know whether blocking is better or worse for her or for you.

I understand wanting to help and to make amends, but I wonder how much of your thinking is about looking good, as opposed to doing good. I urge you to do the next right thing, no matter how it looks.

On the whole, though, I lean towards a final conversation to say the conversation is unhealthy for you (or whatever is true) and then blocking.

I'm curious:

You speak of feelings for your ap. What are they? How and when did they change? Where are they going? (Really, I'm just curious, no need to answer.)

No stop sign so I'll say something. I think that you need to get out of their marriage. By communicating with his BW, you're still in it. Don't you think you've been in their marriage for long enough?

In addition, being mad at your friend for exposing the affair seems "off". Why did you think you were entitled to secrecy from other people? Why did you count on others to keep the lie going? It's actually that the BW was entitled to the truth, in my opinion. My questions were more rhetorical than anything.

I mean no disrespect with my comments. I'm just trying to provide a different perspective.

I was the single OW some years back with a co-worker and chose to tell his wife to end my complicity in the lie and put a final end the affair which I'd been struggling to stop. I didn't want to be involved in a big scene but wanted to be sure she received the information and it was definitive enough to stop his lies. Because the moment the guilt hit me was hearing from him that she was suspicious and they were fighting but she had no proof (having a mental illness myself I understand how horrible it is to not know whether your suspicions are true or just paranoid imagination).

So what I did was knock on their door and hand her a stack of his emails which included personal details about their life as well as gushing ILYs and enough references to the physical part so he couldn't deny it. I included emails from throughout the affair to give a sense of the timeline. They were all words he himself had written so the information was not colored by my excuses or wishful interpretation. This was the only contact I had with her and I think it was for the best- she was able to read and react in private and I avoided further emotional entanglement that might have come from ongoing conversations.

Of course my advice is suspect as they are now divorcing and he has started seeing me again since the separation... But I stand by my decision to give enough proof to refute major lies and otherwise leave it alone- if you read BS threads it seems they do not get satisfaction from talking to the AP- they may find out painful details they would have preferred not to know and they question if the AP is being truthful or spiteful when the WS tells a different story. At the end of the day the details from you don't matter- if the WS is repentant and committed to transparency he can provide it himself, if he is not it doesn't matter if a few details go uncorrected.

I also think it is important for your own health to get away from the dysfunctional relationship and start to put it in the past- so I think the best thing would be a written NC letter or email to both of them stating that you are done interfering in their marriage and want no further contact so that you can focus on working on yourself.