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Manipulation: it's a slippery little bastard. As much as I want to face my own reality, I have been manipulative. The ONLY way that I know to not be manipulative is to essentially agree with everything my wife says. Today is Day 2 of 6 months of separation recommended by our MC. My wife said it's either separation or divorce. I choose the former.

Does anyone else struggle with being manipulative? I'm not sure it's manipulation but rather this weird way of sometimes not seeing it from her perspective. Let me say this: I know that I blur the lines through some form of manipulation (or gaslighting, or deflection, not sure what to call it). Does or has anyone else done a similar thing and found a way to see through it in yourself?

I'm Day 2 in a 180-day separation. 178 days left, 17% chance of success, i.e., staying married (according to the stats).

Real DD: 8/7/18

WS (me): 38

BS (her): 39

Expect more TT

PA: 1

ONS: 5 over past 5 years

[This message edited by Pdxguy at 5:58 PM, September 11th (Tuesday)]

I guess what I'm saying is: how do I detect I'm acting in a manipulative way, how do I prepare against it? In other words, what are some of the signs? I want to see through this, both logically and emotionally. My heart's desire is to confront my sins (the pain i caused her). At the same time, I want to stop manipulating, even in the smallest of ways. It comes out in the tone of my language, my non-verbal, even in the pauses of my language. I feel like this separation is really messing me up.

Pdxguy,

I can certainly speak to this.

If you are lying you are being manipulative.

If you are trying to predict her reaction before you speak or do anything you are being manipulative.

If you are thinking about yourself, rationalizing or making excuses for your actions or being defensive, you are being manipulative.

If you are thinking about the consequences of your words, you are probably being manipulative.

If you are trying to control the situation in any way you are being manipulative.

[This message edited by islesguy at 10:24 PM, September 11th, 2018 (Tuesday)]

First off you ARE manipulating her by just agreeing with her. DO NOT DO THIS. THIS IS THE HEIGHT OF MANIPULATION. She wants you to stand on your own and be your true self. I stop before i speak and take a breath and then think about the truth of what i am about to say and make sure it is 100% the truth.

Anything but the truth, NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT HURTS, is manipulation.

pdxguy, please read this post "Ruminating in Hindsight, My Work" here in the Wayward side by Foreverlabeled. It is certainly a blueprint for getting your shit in a pile

Assjack, copy that. Thanks.

I can be manipulative when I want things to go my way. I know that about myself. If he doesn’t want to talk or do something,, i bat my eyes, smile, and use my womanly ways to bring him around. He can usually see right through that and only lets me have my way because he loves me.

the only antidote to manipulation is radical honesty.

I love it. I'm going with that.

I'm sorry that you are hurting Pdxguy.

There are two kinds of lying and manipulation. That which we do to others, and that which we do to ourselves. As WS's we tell some "doozies" to our spouses during the affair, but in my opinion, the worst lies are the ones we feed ourselves. What I find in my own life is that I lie to myself so smoothly that it often goes by unnoticed by me until pointed out to me later. The thing is, if I am to be "radically honest" with myself, I think there is usually a "Jimminy Cricket" deep inside that lets me know that what I am doing is perhaps not the best course of action in the first place. I've learned to instead come up with justifications and reasons to hide my own selfishness from myself.

Take something simple... there are two pieces of cake left. One slice is bigger than the other.

Part of me immediately wants the bigger slice. My conscience starts to send me messages such as, "You should save the bigger slice for someone else" and "You know your eyes are bigger than your stomach" and so on. But that doesn't get me the big slice of cake, does it? So then the justifications start to flow... "No one else really liked the cake as much as I did" (although them seemed to really love it), "I'm pretty sure everyone else had more pieces and I didn't" (but somehow I don't account for the slice I had as a late night snack or the one I had for breakfast), "I really deserve this because it will make me happy. I'll buy more." One after another until I'm convinced that taking the bigger slice is justified.

Here is my advice for you (in addition to great advice already given above). Pay attention to your own signals. If you find yourself getting very upset about something, or very defensive about something, stop and really ask yourself why. Usually, I project my anger on others rather than myself. (e.g. I complain that some other person is not really working hard, when it is really me that I'm angry at for not making enough effort).

Another thing I tend to do is to see my wife as "the enemy", as if she was "the bad guy" and I'm the victim. I'm not sure if you do that or not, but it is not uncommon. This too is just me blame-shifting and wanting to feel better about myself and not face my own sins. I also confuse anger with danger (Thanks FOO). So if she gets angry, I see it as her wanting to hurt me somehow, as opposed to her having a legitimate gripe, an opinion or advice.

Stay honest, stay humble, and know that things from here on out are not guaranteed. You can only control yourself and your own reactions. Keep coming back.

Daddydom, this is very helpful. Seriously, thank you.

My lies on DD, the continued TT afterwards, and my inability to stand in the storm and feel the pain my BS was experiencing were ways I was being manipulative. I was a coward and conflict-avoidant who couldn't deal with the consequences. Coupled with that, I hid under a mountain of shame and anger - which was another form of manipulation. Though the shame and anger were projected towards myself, it was a form of manipulation as it centred on my pain at the expense of my BS. In IC, we have been exploring my "go-to" feelings of becoming angry/frustrated/hopeless when talking about my thoughts/feelings/perspectives related to the affair. These feelings would lead to shame then lead me to shutting down - which would just make the situation worse.

My IC challenged me to use the feelings of anger/frustration and hopelessness as a signal - a cue to become curious as to why I feel that way and to dig at that. Basically, I have to lean into the discomfort of those feelings and explore. Being a conflict-avoidant person does make this challenging.

Hokybasil, excellent words.