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I’m looking for any and all tips on how to mediate with a covert narcissist.

This guy is a spoiled rich kid, European jet-setter, momma’s boy, flying monkeys galore (lawyers, accountants, girlfriends, company employees, all who he controls with money) and always sees himself as a victim, all the while, treating everyone else like objects here on this Earth to do his bidding. His ego is through the roof. Every interaction is a battle to be won/lost. There is no gray area. He perjures himself on the stand in court without batting an eyelash.

I really, really do not want to go to divorce court, but I’m worried that his “win at all costs” attitude will not allow him to negotiate in mediation. It used to be funny. I would tell him “you are your own worst enemy” and “don’t cut off your nose to spite your face”. How do you negotiate with a person that cannot allow themselves to compromise or they “lose”?

Does anyone have any tips or experience?

Narcissists are over confident. They do have a win at all costs mentality. Documents, and a sense of calm are your weapons of choice.

Get an attorney that's familiar with narcissistic behavior. Get all your ducks in a row, for discovery documents. Do not get emotional when he lashes out, or makes outlandish statements.

The court, and mediator have seen it all. When you get to mediation be in separate rooms. Let your attorney do most of the talking when facing your ex.

I had to deal with a narcissistic ex for settlement. The best advise I can give is don't react to everything he does. React to only the most relevant things or you will spend a fortune. Don't use your attorney as a councilor. Stick to facts, and keep it simple, don't email or call over every little thing as each letter, or communication will cost you hundreds of dollars.

Make sure you get ALL the discovery requested BEFORE you agree to mediate. Documents you don't have will hurt your settlement as you are making decisions without all the information. Don't be afraid to get subpoenas. Make sure you have TWO mediation sessions scheduled so you have time to reach agreement. If you wait to long then you only have time for one, and then you may be rushed to make life changing decisions on the fly. A second session LONG before a trial date is best. Waiting makes you prep for trial, and incur most of the cost of a trial, before you have a chance to get to a second mediation. You want to have enough time to have a second mediation prior to having to prep for trial. Going to trial will cost roughly $25k-$40k depending on witnesses, depositions, content, and professionals, not counting the court, and attorney costs.

Hang on, get some emotional support, IC and remember he won't fight fair. Take the high road, and let your attorney earn his wages.

Also don't post or comment on social media at all concerning him or the divorce. Resist saying anything about him to anyone that might bring information back to him. Anything you post, even to friends may pop up when you go to court. If you wouldn't want a judge to repeat it, don't do it.

[This message edited by Muggle at 7:58 PM, September 7th (Saturday)]

Separate rooms. Attorneys go back and forth. Ask for a mediator that is a former judge or attorney.

Do not let him see you. Get there really early and leave with an escort. Possibly rent a car or take an uber so he cannot find you nor follow you.

Documented facts are the narcissist's #1 enemy.

The emotional realm is their preferred playground.

Stick with as many documented facts (statements, bills, dated diary entries, calendars, etc.) as you can produce.

While being completely unemotional, ignoring his button pushing and emotional outbursts and attacks.

Stay out of his playground.

In addition to what the others have said, I would encourage you to look up the standards in your state.

For example- if you have children, what is your state and/or county's standard parenting plan? I know that in Oregon, there are a few different standard schedules depending on which county you live in.

Is alimony a thing in your state and if so, how is it calculated?

Have that information in hand so you know where to to start negotiations.

Be prepared, though, to go through all that and him decide at the last minute to not sign and make you go to court.

My ex did that and not only did the judge rule everything in my favor, I ended up with nearly twice the amount of child support and he got less parenting time.

Had he signed the damn agreement we came to during mediation, he would have been much, much better off. But he chose to be an asshole, so I pushed everything to the very limit.

And won.

Hope that makes sense. I wasn't actually married, so I don't know all the proper terminology. I really only know the parenting time and child support stuff because we had a child together and I wanted custody engraved in stone.

Contrary to popular belief, narcissists are not over confident, just the opposite. They behave bizarrely because they want to influence what others think about them. They pretend to be confident, put together, top of their game, etc. It's an act. And they have even convinced themselves. People who truly have self worth don't behave like that, they are just themselves. The way I dealt with my narcissist was to get a female shark attorney who saw right through him. Her dislike for his personality lit a spark in her that served me well in the long run. I wish you the best.

Muggle's response is spot on. As an attorney who was involved in many mediations and then later as one who worked for a mediator, you will likely not be in the same room (except maybe for an opening discussion by the judge/mediator who is handling you case for the mediator to outline the process as they see it). Discovery having been completed is usually key to a successful mediation. Occasionally facts will come out in mediation that necessitate additional discovery but usually most of, if not all of, the relevant facts are already known/supported.

The most difficult thing to do is to NOT make it personal. Think of it as a business decision - a resolution of a breach of contract as the money/assets your will receive and the things you have to pay are akin to contract damages in civil law. No one is going to apologize. No one is going to "win" or "lose."

My experience with mediating with a covert narcissist: It's a complete waste of time and money.

My STBXW showed up and she/her attorney basically made ridiculous offers and ridiculous accusations and refused to negotiate on anything. For example:

1. They offered me 10% physical custody of the kids, with the opportunity to go to mediate after 18 months if they felt that I was making good progress with my mental health. That is, there was no requirement (only if they felt like it) that they even return to mediation to give me more custody. Please note that the legal minimum that I can be allocated in my state is 25%. So, they literally offered me less than the legal minimum and acted miffed when I did not accept their "generous" offer.

2. They valued our home (which she wants) at a value X, which was the price that we paid for it in 2013 (and we have done several major renovations). I valued our home at value Y, which was $40,000 more than X. I included comparable property values; she basically said her value was right.

3. She valued a investment property (which I want) at A; I suggested it was worth B, a price based on an appraisal made in 2015 (plus some appreciation). A was $50,000 more than my number; it was again based on her opinion with no actual support.

It was honestly a waste of time and money.

Honestly, my advice would be to prepare your lawyer for a shit show. Mine was completely unprepared and it showed. I would discuss with your lawyer for a plan to get up and leave if they turn it into a shitshow.

p.s. Yes, I am projecting like hell... but you asked for experiences.

One more thing to add to my previous advise. In mediation it can be very hectic, lots of notes, calculations, and back and forth discussions. My mediation was scheduled for 7.5 hours and we were down to the wire when we settled.

Read, read, and read the final documents SLOWLY. Make sure EVERY single thing you've agreed to that has a timeline, that the DAY of the month is specified, and the terms for resolution if he defaults.

I missed a date being listed and instead of payments in the beginning of the month he was able to make it the LAST day of the month. My attorney and I missed that ONE line. Effectively it made me wait 7 weeks for the first payment from the last payment he had made. Now he pays me for EVERYTHING on the LAST possible day he can, and was a huge oversight of my attorney.

Remember if you have kids, the devils in the details. He will insist everything under the sun constitutes coming out of your "child support".

Ask for college support to be reserved. Consider any activities outside of school, band, field trips, sports, or anything that kids may end up doing that costs money to be designated as to whom pays and what percentage. Ask for your child's car insurance, vehicle maintenance, car tabs, repairs and such to be divided between you. Passport costs, ID costs, yearbooks, graduation costs, prom costs. Remember cell phone bills, and driver's education costs for permits and classes. Anything you don't specify will likely become your problem to pay for. Clothing although usually paid from child support can be crippling when you have to change wardrobes for seasons or your child gains or loses weight several times a year.

I asked for life insurance with me as beneficiary to cover the settlement money he owed me. You could ask for a policy with you as beneficiary for any and all child support or college support that would be owed until they turn 18 in the event of his death. This protects your kids.

Make sure you have clearly defined consequences if he fails to follow the agreement. Example: after 30 days of being late you can get a judgement against him. If the consequences are in black and white he will be less likely to default.

[This message edited by Muggle at 7:11 PM, September 9th (Monday)]