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I'm gonna say some stuff with which "researchers" will likely disagree. Most of what I have to say is built around personal experience, so take it for what it's worth.

I have often read articles where "People Pleasers" are described as wanting peace at all cost and that they are "conflict avoidant". Most articles posit that the People Pleaser wants to have no conflict in their lives and are even willing to go against their own beliefs in order to keep the peace.

I disagree. Going against your own beliefs is, in fact, a major conflict. Giving up your own wants and needs to make someone else happy (the People Pleaser's TRUE motive) has nothing to do with avoiding conflict and has everything to do with a willingness to live within the conflict.

Follow me for just a moment...

As a People Pleaser, I had to be VERY comfortable with conflict. I had to live virtually every moment of my life being conflicted. There was ALWAYS tension between what I wanted (or needed) and making others happy. I took personal responsibility for their happiness because I wanted to please them. A Pleaser's life is FULL of conflict.

The Avoider, however, HATES conflict. And while many think of the Avoider as someone who is soft and allows themselves to be a doormat, the opposite can be just as true.

My wife was a conflict avoider. Her past behaviors are far from the "pushover" that many think of when the Avoider is described. She was never a pushover...she was a steamroller.

Anything she wanted, especially if she thought the other person was "weak"...she rolled right over them. No conflict or tension...just blast away until she got what she wanted. It was a very narrow self-focus. She wanted it, she got it, and she didn't care who she hurt in the process. Because "caring" would have put her in conflict. She would have had to choose between getting what she wanted and causing pain. A conflict.

I often think of the schoolyard bully as another example of a conflict avoider.

What!?! The kid who beats everyone up is an Avoider? Of course. The bully finds the weakest person, someone they believe won't fight back (no actual conflict) and makes an example out of them, instilling fear into the others around them. When everyone is afraid to "cross" the bully...then there is no conflict.

With these two types in play in my own marriage, believe it or not, it has been easier for me to adjust as the Pleaser than my wife as the Avoider.

As a Pleaser, rather than making sure everyone around me was "happy", I simply turned that focus onto myself. What did I need? What did I want? What was I going to do about it?

I became my own best advocate. I learned to speak up for me, to make my desires known. And I also stopped looking to make others happiness the basis for my own happiness & self-worth. I became more real, more honest, more authentic (he said in a room full of mostly anonymous internet strangers...the irony isn't lost on me). I learned that it was not only OK, but that it was GOOD to actually prioritize my own wants and needs from time-to-time.

On the other side of this has been my wife's journey. She has had to stop placing herself ahead of everyone and start looking to fulfill the wants and needs of others before turning her attention to herself.

But how does that work with her being a mom with so many kids and also homeschooling them? Interestingly enough, she has come to the conclusion that she has put her image first, ahead of anything that was actually happening. Because if she was ever questioned about what or why or how someone else thought things ought to run, she immediately shut them down and oftentimes shut them out completely. You do not question the avoider. If you do, they will never speak to you again.

I saw this over the years in many relationships that simply "disappeared". And it never really hit me until after her A and her being adamant that she would never step foot in the church we attended again because I told our small group leader/elder and the pastor. She could no longer control the narrative. Conflict had arrived. And she walked away rather than facing it.

She is learning to face that conflict now. She is learning to treat relationships as something treasured, not something to be used to get her way. It isn't easy for her. And I still see her struggle at times. She feels that conflict between what she wants and how to treat other people with respect and kindness (when she would have previously steamrolled her way to whatever she wanted).

She is learning to live with that internal conflict that comes with giving up your own desires so someone else can see theirs fulfilled. She is learning to say "you first" rather than "get out of my way".

It has been a long, long journey. It has been FAR from easy. But the progress is being made.

She isn't the Avoider she once was. And I'm not the Pleaser I used to be.

[This message edited by CaptainRogers at 10:57 PM, August 12th (Wednesday)]

I think your description is very accurate. The reason that this stuff can be confusing is that our feelings are layered like an onion. I am a people pleaser and conflict avoidant, but only avoidant of certain conflicts within certain layers of my intimate feelings. This impacts my boundaries; I'll tell you No on Monday, but I'll be very uncomfortable telling you No again on Wednesday. I will feel like I am being unfair to you and may compromise my own boundary. I'll tell my best friend how I really feel about something, but I will struggle to share my true feelings with a work colleague, even though I need to. Different people, different topics, different potential for conflicts.

Avoidants do not avoid everything. There are areas and people in their lives that feel safer, but it isn't where one might assume. I have frequent conflicts with my H about little things, but I could not seem to tell him that I wanted a D. I could not stand strong on that topic because of the level of discomfort inside. I remained unhappy for many years because I avoided that conflict in my partnership, but I had lots of other conflict. My H never sees my people pleasing side, but lots of people at work do.

Avoidants can also be extremely selfish and manipulative as they avoid. My H is avoidant that way. So are narcissists. People can act out in lots of highly dysfunctional ways to avoid certain feelings inside their layered onion. They can use drugs and alcohol, triangulation, escapism, anger and hostility, break ups and commitment phobia, delinquency, risk taking, and self harm as just a few of the many paths to avoiding certain feelings or issues.

My opinion is that in avoiding really difficult feelings inside you, you either hurt yourself or hurt others. Most BS will be the type that hurt themselves to avoid, and this is where potential codependency becomes so common. Most WS lean toward hurting others to avoid, turning selfish or dismissive to get away. Yes, I personally think it's worse to be the selfish type, but that doesn't mean they don't want the same things. Your WW may want the same things but she pushes people with hurtful behaviors because those feelings are too hard.

We need to stand up and defend our needs with strong boundaries. WS need to stand down and stop pushing on our boundaries. Reconciliation only works when both people realize this. (*There are other A dynamics than this marital pairing, but this is a common one.)

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 4:32 AM, August 13th (Thursday)]

Good post.

I guess I might fit in somewhere in-between. Heaven knows I’m not afraid of conflicts, but I chose my battles well and am not afraid to either walk away or accept some hassle if I deem that less effort and it get’s me to my goal.

I guess it's not about the conflict per se but about the result.

There are definitely a multitude of layers involved. And there can be quite a bit of overlap as well. I believe there is both that continuum of how much conflict one tries to avoid and a separate one for how much they are trying to please others. A person could be a 100% pleaser and a 100% avoider at the same time. But they can also have that 100% measurement on one scale and a 0% on the other.

Ultimately, I think most folks have a "little bit of both" (to steal a phrase from Star-Lord) inside them. Those who are narcissistic may have little to no "Pleaser", but I am willing to bet that on some layer of that onion, it exists.

I am a people pleaser and conflict avoidant. I work on it all the time.

The problem with these two traits are that at some point you trade everything for what others want. You make excuses for them or why they need it more.

I would agree with OIN, I am only conflict avoidant about things I have deeper feelings about. I run companies and give uncomfortable feedback to employees. I fire people. I negotiate what I feel needs to happen with a Board of Trustees.

H and I run businesses together, I can express what I think we should do and be completely of a different opinion than my husband on the solution.

But, there is no vulnerability in these things.

I tend to think my overarching problem has always been with vulnerability. And, I think that's a common human struggle.

The problem is when people can be so extreme. I was extreme. I never minded putting my children or husband first most of the time. It is a gift to be generous and loving. But, there are times when you have to recognize that you should take a turn sometimes when it's more important to you. You can sacrifice so much that it creates a lot of resentments. You can people please and hustle for love until you have lost sight of yourself.

I have never used a relationship for gain, well arguably other than the AP right? I was using him to get something. It's so stupid because if I could have learned to put those deep emotions into words, the resentments would not have built, sometimes I would have seen the way I was catastrophizing , sometimes I would have given my husband an opportunity to soothe me and work something through with me. I wouldn't have used someone else to get a false version of something I had the true version of already at home.

When you let all that build up, it feels like a tangled knot that can't be undone. You feel defeated like fixing it is impossible. The marriage just doesn't work but you are so frustrated you don't even know where to begin.

My work isn't really on treasuring my relationships more, I have actually always been a grateful and happy person for the most part. Of course I didn't treasure my marriage as I was cheating.

But, My work is more about my boundaries and feeling I am worthwhile to show up authentically for and that by giving my husband trust through that vulnerability. Trusting him to love me when I am not who he wants me to be in a specific scenario. My default was to show up and be whoever he needed whenever he needed, and that is good only to a certain extent.

Finding that line was a challenge, but now I can feel when I honor me, I honor him, and when I honor him, I honor me. That feeling keeps me authentic when I am still generous and selfless, and gives me the opportunity to rest when I need to do something for me and not feel guilty or panic that I will not be loved as much. That being loveable does not mean always being compliant.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:27 AM, August 13th (Thursday)]

I think you've described good insight, CR, especially about changing from pleasing and avoiding to authentic giving and taking. Very cool.