SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It's weird for me to share this, and especially here, but hi, I'm the WW. But am I?

I had a work friend in which our conversations were occasionally inappropriate. We would talk about sexual fantasies (never about each other), or kinks, or preferences, etc. Yes, I know these are totally inappropriate, thank you. But I never had feelings for him and as far as I know he never had feelings for me. We never did anything physically with each other. I just felt like he was one of my female friends.

I will admit that I shouldn't have allowed our friendship to get to the level that it was. That maybe we weren't "just friends" but I do not feel like I had an EA. My BH feels just as betrayed as if I had had a full-on PA. We have been working on R and it's important to him that I use the correct terminology- Emotional Affair, Affair Partner, etc. I'll do these things, because I can't possibly lose my husband over someone as insignificant as this work friend.

I'm feeling TONS of shame over this. That I clearly have no boundaries, that maybe my SA childhood contributed to my lack of awareness. I have an urgency to work on myself so that I don't hurt my husband again. But do I feel guilt? No, not really. Because deep down, I know I didn't have feelings for him and I feel like that should count for something.

BH and I are high school sweethearts, been together 20 years, married for 13. I'm realizing now that we never had the opportunity to discuss boundaries and we are really shit communicators. My friends all think I'm innocent, especially because they knew the nature of mine and AP's relationship (I'll call him AP because he's the subject of the betrayal, but when my husband tried to call him my boyfriend, I lost my gd mind). And I'm taking responsibility and accountability for betraying my husband's trust. I'd do anything for him.

But did I cheat?

I think you said in an earlier post that you were doing a lot of reading, so hopefully you're reading or read "Not Just Friends" by Jean Coppock Staeheli and Shirley Glass. In the book, the authors provide a set of questions to ask yourself if you're trying to figure out if you're having an affair, or if you're close to it. One of them is essentially, "If my partner was here with me right now, would I feel comfortable engaging in this behavior with this other person?" If the answer is no, then you're crossing boundaries.

So ask yourself if, knowing what you knew about his boundaries back then, while you were texting this other man, your H was reading along beside you, how he would react. And be honest with yourself, because even if he didn't explicitly communicate it, most men don't want their wives speaking sexually with other men, and just about every man is going to view sexual talk as an "in." Maybe you genuinely didn't think your H would be upset if he knew, but... maybe you weren't exactly that naive. You probably could have taken the initiative to ask how he felt about it before you proceeded too far into inappropriate territory.

I think another good thing to think about is whether you put in any effort to hide your text messages from him. If you did, why? There should be no secrets between spouses.

Obviously, you need to set clear boundaries for what you each are and are not okay with, and communicate them to each other, so there can be no "I didn't knows" going forwards.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 8:12 PM, Wednesday, January 7th]

In this particular case, I believe you are focusing too much on properly labelling the behaviors. You have admitted the behaviors, acknowledged they were inappropriate and are willing to make amends. If it's a dealbreaker for your husband, there may not be much you can do about it. That said, I would not throw in the towel here.

A point I would make as a BH. I was not completely clear on my boundaries until they were crossed (FOO issues). Be willing to fall on your sword ...privately. Public humiliation is not appropriate for a remorseful WW. DO what it takes to begin to rebuild trust... again, within reason.

My friends all think I'm innocent

And if the shoe was on the other foot they would be letting you know what a base brute your husband was by sexting with other women.
Of course they support you! They are your friends!

A very good common-sense boundary is to evaluate if you would be willing to do what you do/did with your spouse in the same room and knowing about it. In all honesty – would you be happy with your husband sharing sexual fantasies, kinks and preference with another woman? Maybe one of your supportive and open-minded friends?

Ask yourself this question – and you only need to answer it for yourself: Did sharing the fantasies, kinks and preferences give you any sense of sexual gratification?
If it did... well... maybe this wasn’t a pure EA... It had sexual content.
When does "sex" become "sex"? When does a relationship become sexual?
We have had posters that insist it wasn’t sexual because they didn’t orgasm. Or that since it was only a hand-job it wasn’t sex. Or that since it was only online it wasn’t sex... IMHO once the intent and purpose is to gain and/or give sexual stimulation... it’s sexual.

Read "Not Just Friends"
NOT "Just Friends": Rebuilding Trust and Recovering Your Sanity After Infidelity
by Shirley Glass Ph.D. and Jean Coppock Staeheli | Nov 1, 2007

Easy to find on Amazon

Of course your friends are "on your side" - friends do that sort of thing.
Scary part is likely they think the way you do or did.

Find a good tome on "Boundaries" - you need to improve them.

for hubby - he needs to get some work done on his thinking - Yes you violated your marital privacy in a way.

. My friends all think I'm innocent, especially because they knew the nature of mine and AP's relationship (I'll call him AP because he's the subject of the betrayal, but when my husband tried to call him my boyfriend, I lost my gd mind). And I'm taking responsibility and accountability for betraying my husband's trust. I'd do anything for him.

Curious how he found out your violation of whatever level of privacy you and he agreed to. Or did you even ever have such a discussion? Were you both "guilty" of assumptions?

If you were single - no worries - except people generally don't ascribe someone who talks about their person sex desires and/or deviation as worth much more than a casual (if that) relationship. Exception - they also think sharing such is OK.

So - I don't think (or agree) you cheated and also hubby is being a bit unreasonable.

I would suggest he get some sanity check via IC and then you both (maybe?) would benefit from a marriage counselor who can address sexual proclivities in marriage.

Just my point of view - YMMV

TrainToUnknownDestinatio

Well, I just read your profile -

Leaving your phone out so husband can see - shows you were not intentionally hiding your chats.

Would like your answer on what Bigger asks about "sexual" feelings associated with such exchange with your texting partner.

A good answer to that query may help your husband. A bad answer would be "I did - " Ouch!

If you search on your browser for "book on boundaries" you will find several that provide a good foundation.

Now, do an "empathy" check - in two parts.

First - what emotional hurt is your husband experiencing? Ask yourself (and him?) how to address such.

2nd. - I'll bet husband feels violated (privacy) and disrespected. THAT is a big one for us males.

You need to be more aware and also work to get him to place where he accepts you were just being thoughless in what you did.

Such a mess over something that seems, at the time, totally not important. Error!

Thanks everyone for your responses, the positive and negative criticism is all very helpful. I want to learn as much as I can.

To answer a few questions- I did occasionally tell my husband about our conversations and he didn't seem to mind in the past. Maybe he didn't realize the extent of them. I never felt like I was hiding anything, but when he went through my text history and started getting upset, I knew he was only going to get more upset the more he saw. I truly didn't have feelings for this guy- these conversations always came from a state of curiosity, as H and I are each other's "first and last" since we've been together since high school. The fantasies that were conjured from these conversations were always ones that involved my husband or a faceless stranger- never the AP.

I think we had an issue with communication and boundaries. I never would have done this if I knew my H would be upset about it. And if I were to be honest with myself, I really don't think I'd be upset if he was messaging another girl about this stuff from a state of curiosity. If it were from a state of lust, yes. But it's been a hard sell because he knows from the male perspective, those conversations were sexualized for the AP even if they weren't from me. I don't have enough experience with men to have known that, but I have certainly learned to set some boundaries for myself and my relationships to recognize warning signs now.

And yes, I'm reading Not "Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. I scored a 4 on that quiz which put me in the "maybe not just friends" category. A 6-7 was "definitely in an EA".

Do you think that you minimized the extent or the nature of the text messages with this guy? Whether intentionally or unintentionally?

If you were perfectly honest, then I do think the sudden change from being seemingly okay with it to making you text him every 4 hours with updates on your infidelity-related readings is unusual, and tentatively, maybe a little over the top.

I think you describe something that could be 1) on the slippery slope, or 2) a boundary violation that doesn't fit into the EA/PA paradigm, or 3) an EA.

Does it matter?

I'll say this: if you decide it wasn't a boundary violation while your H thinks 'EA', what's the likely outcome. I think you run a very large risk of D unless you and your H agree on the characterization of what you did. I'd call it a big boundary violation, but that's me, and I'm just an observer. If you agree, you agree that you've got to do the work of building boundaries, which isn't easy.

If it was an EA, I think you'd have to do the same work.

So it probably doesn't matter what you call it....

"Did I Cheat?"

Perhaps that question requires an agreed definition of "cheat", and I’m not sure there is one.

But what about this:

Were you engaging in behavior that was a threat to your marriage?

You and your friends don’t think so. Just about everyone on this site probably thinks you were. Read "Not just Friends."

And this:

Were you engaging in behavior that would have distressed your husband, had he known about it?

I think you know the answer is "yes", after all, you hid it from him. You wouldn’t have written those texts with him looking over your shoulder, would you?

And so:

You’re married. You give up some things when you get married, both to protect the marriage and your spouse.

One thing thing you should give up is male friends.

Otherwise, you’ll continue to be a threat to your marriage, and your husband will always be nervous, jealous.

And that’s kind of the opposite of being married.

Did you lie about the extent of your conversations with AP to you BS, in particular about sex?

Did you lie about what you were doing to spend any amount of 1-1 time with AP?

Did you lie about any interactions you had with AP of a sexual nature?

If yes to any of the above, congrats, you cheated. To me, the *deception* is much more important than the *extent*.

Seems like the missing component from a typical EA is the emotional attachment/love aspect. You say you got a 4 on the quiz, so I'm thinking there are probably some key questions on that quiz that might also go one way or another. For example "would you mind if your husband read your messages" went from "no" to "yes" once he actually read the messages, it seems. Maybe the same for watching a video of your interactions?

I'm not saying you definitely had an EA, but you were at least on the slippery slope. If there was no intentional deception, I would probably say you didn't cheat.

I think your husband is trying to communicate that he feels you have violated a common socially accepted boundary in marriage, although implicit and unspoken in this case. Maybe he wants to label it to get you to understand that most people; I don't know, say 75%+, would agree with him. Clearly you don't agree. That's important for you both. Do I agree or do others here? It doesn't matter.

Just for analogy, I will give a few examples.

I have friends that sold a primary residence a few years ago. The house was 90%+ of their assets, $2M. That's obviously not ideal at their age. I won't go into why that was their financial situation. They talked extensively about what they would do with the money and their next house. They sold and had the cash and were living in an apartment. They decided to build and looked at lots. There were a few they liked and one in particular. The husband bought it without his wife's knowledge or consent. It was maybe 10% of their net worth, maybe less. My husband asked him if he talked to his wife first, and he said no. I. would. lose. my. shit. if my husband did that to me! Yes, maybe she was 85% of the way there, but why did he think that was ok?! To me, that's a commonly accepted boundary in this case. I don't know that she wanted to label it as financial infidelity, but I can understand if she wanted to impress upon him how hurt and betrayed she felt. They are fine though. Happy I think.

There was a recent story on reddit where a wife left her husband with their 8 yr old and baby to go to work. She came home and the baby was crying uncontrollably in it's crib with a dirty diaper and hadn't been fed. The 8 yr old had tried to make formula and had eaten chips and junk food. The husband was sleeping. He said that he thought she had fed and changed them and they would be ok. Maybe she wanted to label it as child neglect or not, but certainly she felt he violated a commonly accepted boundary with child care. Do I or you? Who cares.

You clearly think what you've done is not cheating. That's ok. I get it. Maybe some would say it is and some would not. I don't know. The kind thing to do in this case, as well as the most beneficial to you, is to stand your ground and tell your husband exactly how you feel. Don't give in to his labeling it if you don't agree. It will all work out to the best for you both.

Edit: What I'm trying to say in both examples is that the spouse may have been largely understanding of the situation, but they also feel that there was an implicit, unspoken boundary that is commonly accepted that was crossed eventually. I think your husband probably feels the same. He probably even wonders if he truly even knows who you are sexually and understands you and can predict your future behavior.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 9:38 PM, Thursday, January 8th]

I think you need to dig deeper.

Not on what to label it. But what you can learn about yourself here that will provide clarity and when you grasp those things I think the conversation will change and become more productive.

You have mentioned sexual abuse. Same here, and I get that it sexualizes you in a way that you can overshare and be inappropriate.

One thing that is common, at least it’s true for me is that sexual abuse teaches you to get attention with your sexuality. There is often this confusion between enjoying attention through the grooming process and just dealing with the unwanted escalation. It makes us feel complicit in some way. For me, it taught me sex is a tool to get attention and validation.

In having an affair I allowed that need to escalate until a physical relationship because I was in a place in my life that need for validation was heavy enough that I traded for it to keep it going. Not consciously, some of that was hidden from myself.

You may have had this interaction without that need being so strong that you had to turn it into an emotional or sexual relationship, but you were getting something out of it that likey goes beyond having curiousity. I believe you may not have been genuinely into this guy, but I think you need to reflect more deeply at the emotional pay offs you were seeking and receiving.

For example, I am sure he showed you a lot more interest due to the subject matter because that was going straight into his spank bank. And I do believe that may not have been a concern of yours because you were not planning on anything with him, you were getting what you needed from the situation without having to.

The part that I think you need to reconcile is how you could be sexually abused and not learn the nature of that objectification? I say that because you say you didn’t realize he was sexualizing you. I am not asking you to defend against that here- I am asking you to self reflect and hold that as a question. Because I think there are aspects to this you have hidden to yourself or are minimizing.

If your husband was having these conversations with another woman he would likely not be able to do that without having list involved or as a primary motivating factor. So I think he may be projecting that somewhat as well.

But, In general people get turned on when talking about erotic things. I sort of wonder if you have some exhibitionist part of you that maybe sees this man as your passive audience? The turn on isn’t with him, or about him, it’s the indecent exposure of some of your most innermost sexual thoughts.

In some ways, isn’t that a little like reliving some parts of your sexual abuse? You likely were not interested at all in your predator past the attention point, but that person still had the indecent exposure of things that are private and intimate.

And maybe I don’t have this all right, there aren’t enough details for me to clearly know what it is or was, but I am throwing out some things to evaluate. It’s not uncommon for female ws here to say they can see elements of reverting back to that experience of abuse and seeing some of that be evident in their affair.

But, I think if you find the clearer answers the ones that are fully true and start thinking about protecting that little girl from having that exposure, what it would feel like to have been able to maintain your innocence, your line on that boundary will start to slowly move and you may see it from your husbands perspective more.

I don’t think it matters what you call it, there is a problem here that you need to figure it out and it runs deeper than simply I liked to talk about sex with the guy to learn more about sex. This is where your husband is disturbed.

You know your husbands drive towards sex. We as females are brought up being told guys only want one thing as a means of trying to protect our chastity. I am sorry I am just not completely buying you didn’t know the guy was sexualizing it. I think you may not have cared either way because I believe you didn’t want him. But there was a payoff here you did want and it simply was something you chose not to acknowledge, just like you didn’t want to acknowledge he might get turned on by it.

When people are in a situation like this where they overlook what they don’t want to see to do the thing they want, that’s when you need to figure out why.

If you can do that and identify what those needs are or what the dysfunction might be you can start to heal the wound that caused it. And by doing that investigation and fixing the why you can begin building trust.

@hikingout, I think you hit the nail on the head with your response because holy shit did I feel exposed when I read it.

I'm absolutely terrified to dig into my SA childhood. I know it's why I have boundary issues, I'm a people pleaser, I avoid conflict, I compromise my values to accommodate others, etc. I've acknowledged these things in therapy and know they all contributed to this mess I've made, whatever we want to call it- doesn't matter, I'm taking responsibility and accountability for it.

But I am Scared. As. F***. to dig into the abuse I experienced.

I’m excited about your breakthrough, or at least a new sense of direction to take your healing process :) Make sure to let your husband know about it and your intention to work through it, even if you’re scared! He will appreciate that you’re doing the work and feel safer in time because of it.

You can do it!

I know it’s scary.

Several months into my therapy after my affair my therapist said "were you sexually abused"

And honestly I sat there for a moment and blinked.

What? What does that have to do with this?

And I gave her some history from a very detached place. I had sort of buried it, made excuses for it. I had suppressed it, thinking I was fine.

And yes same qualities here. People pleaser, all of it. Though my people pleasing I don’t completely tie to that but more because my mother had an explosive temper and was emotionally abusive.

I believe you when you say you want to take full accountability and that you don’t want to lose your husband and this guy meant nothing to you. I just know it’s not normal to share something so personal and intimate as one’s sexual fantasies with someone you feel detached from.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:19 PM, Friday, January 9th]