SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You are lying to yourself.

People are born hard wired a certain way.

I have such an incredibly long history of lying when it is convenient born of an upbringing where lying was a prerequisite for living...

These two statements contradict each other. You have had children, you know that babies are not born with an intrinsic desire to lie. Children express themselves freely; they are taught to lie. And you know that. It is how your life was defined.

The question I'm asking myself is do I want to be married at all.

Good question. You know that if you enter into another relationship, all of these issues will still be there...

I've viewed my H as a roadblock to living the life I want to live, but I think I've been projecting my mother onto him.

... and subsequent partners you have, you will also project your mother onto them.

What will your life be like when you are alone? Visualize this. Your house or apartment, with just your furniture and your clothes. You cook for yourself only. You probably have one or two extra rooms for when the kids come to visit. One day they will get married and have grandchildren. Do you see yourself with your husband through all this? How does it feel in your home set up for one?

It is a good exercise to visualize as much of it as you can.

you may have already stated this, but, are you in IC? I am searching for the right words to use here but one thing jumps out at me - you do not trust your H...don't trust him to keep you safe...to love you unconditionally...to not hurt you....these trust issues are tied to your mom's NDP - which has branched off into not trusting yourself or your H...that's why you're pushing him away...even when you don't know it, that's what you're doing...so, *JUST IN CASE* he decides to hurt you, you've created some imaginary "safe" emotional distance - thus reinforcing any negative beliefs you've already planted in your mind.

my mother, while not as extreme as yours, definitely displayed NPD characteristics...she's pushing 70 and is much better..but, the damage has been done...I'm the product of it...but I realize I can change...I have changed...you can too..I see the words of someone desperately trying to find who she TRULY is buried under all the weight associated with the expectations and ramifications of her mother's demanding personality disorder...it's not an excuse...it is what it is..it's an important factor in who YOU are and should not be minimized or dismissed or seen as an excuse...it's valid, IMO.

I never learned to trust myself.

you never learned to trust PERIOD...so you hide instead...you don't allow people to penetrate those walls because you don't trust that they won't abandon or ridicule you once they know who you really are.

[This message edited by MissesJai at 1:25 PM, September 7th (Tuesday)]

Visualize this. Your house or apartment, with just your furniture and your clothes. You cook for yourself only.

Heaven.

You never learned to trust PERIOD...so you hide instead...you don't allow people to penetrate those walls because you don't trust that they won't abandon or ridicule you once they know who you really are.

Exactly. Which is why being alone is so appealing. I assume that since my mother doesn't love me, no one can. That's a logical assumption for anyone, but I'm a mom too so the logic is visceral.

But if I change "doesn't" to "can't" that logic breaks down. I have no idea why I'm just now accepting that the flaw is in my mother, not me. It's old news. Maybe the NC with her has given me perspective.

That's why I am working so hard to build boundaries with my H to replace the walls I currently have in place. I need to see if he can make it safe for me.

At least at this point, all my lies to him are ones of omission. Actually, maybe that's not true. I'm not sure he has the right to know what I'm feeling so there isn't a corresponding duty to disclose so it isn't a lie.

And that's the issue I'm going to have to resolve next. What feelings am I going to use as trial balloons to see if I'm safe with him. Like the bird sent into the mine to see if there is enough oxygen. Not a good idea to be terribly attached to that particular bird.

My psychiatrist advised me to study my H the way an anthropologist studies a different species. I've been studying hard and I'm ready to pick something that makes me feel vulnerable to talk about, NOT A related, and throw it out there and see what he does with it.

I'm still really raw so that's going to be a challenge.

Thanks for your insights. It really helps clarify my thinking.

okay, so FOO issues aside... yes you have a flaw. To determine if it is a character flaw, well that is going to get many different answers and perspectives.

I was molested from, lets see, as early as 2 for sure until 12 years old. I was beaten and neglected. I was told, starting at 5 years old, that if it wasn't for me my mother would have no reason to live.

Yes, I learned to lie. I learned to lie very well. But all along I knew it. I hated myself for it, yet my f***ed up life lessons had me believe I was responsible to lie to protect those that I love and to earn their love.

THAT BEING SAID, I changed. I work hard, and yes self examination on a daily/hourly/second basis is hard, to take these lies I have been taught about myself and replace them with the truths of who I know I am now and who I know I still want to be.

You can do it, as well. It is not some mythical concept like the lochness monster. It is real and available for you. But it is hard and you must be willing to put your current idea of who you are out there in order to discover the lies you have been taught and the lies you have chosen to perpetuate about yourself. Because it is a choice to continue to believe those lies and hide in them as well.

There is value in you. You are worth the difficult task before you. And the sad truth is, it doesn't matter how many people tell you this or how many books you read or how many different therapists you see.... It just needs to be you and your choice to do it. All those aforementioned things could certainly help you on that quest; however, it needs to be you.

I believe we are all worth it. Every last bit of effort. Don't do it for your marriage or your BS. Do it for you.

Emerson quote is so fitting in every post I read today...

"We must be our OWN before we can be ANOTHERS"

Best of luck to you in your quest for finding YOU!

I've viewed my H as a roadblock to living the life I want to live

Is it possible to change your perspective?

I need to find a job

Your replies have been helpful to me on my thread. Maybe you should consider going into social work

I am having a particularly hideous day. I keep crying. I don't cry, ever, because if I'm crying it means they win. You either understand that statement or you don't. There is no explaining it.

I decided that the feeling I was going to use as my trial balloon was my fear about my H's current well being. In addition to my A, in June his company cut his division and he's looking for a job plus and we just took our middle child to college. That's a lot of loss in a short time. He's so bored and lost that last night he made cookies. They were awful.

Immediately post DD he went to IC twice. He reported at the time that it helped him. So I told him I was concerned for him and that I thought he should consider going back to get some help sorting through his current predicament. He doesn't think he needs any help.

So, I took a deep breath and took the plunge and said "you lost your job and DS is gone and I had an A and I see how you are stuffing everything down and I don't know how to help you." We don't mention the A word. He brushed it off. He's FINE.

The rule is that we aren't supposed to discuss anything of importance after I take Ambien, and I announce "I am taking my Ambien now" so there is no question. Got in bed and AFTER I took my Ambien, the subject came up again. He said he was so mad at me he didn't want to confront it, that it scared him, and that he will never trust me again but he doesn't want a D. He doesn't want to go to IC, but he will got to MC....maybe .... that scares him too.

Ambien kicked in and I have no idea what I said after that. I HATE IT WHEN HE DOES THAT. Sometimes we have sex and I don't remember it and the only way I know is that I have no underwear on when I get up. I hate it when he does that too.

This morning, he wouldn't tell me what I said -- he says it was no big deal. I was clearly in a bad mood, and told him, again, how upset it makes me when we talk after I take my Ambien. He surmised, correctly, that that wasn't all that was bothering me, so I told him how upset I am with what I've done, and I don't know how to fix it and it's eating me up inside. He said "don't worry about it."

I know that he hates seeing me upset and that is part of the dynamic.

I have made figuring out infidelity basically a full time job since May. Thinking about this ALL the time is ruining my life. I'm feeling burned out and I don't think I've even started.

I just know that leaving the whole subject alone (his solution) is the totally wrong answer but I'm not sure what my next move should be or how I'm going to summon the energy to make it. Right now, it seems insurmountable but I hope that's because I'm looking up at the mountain because I've wandered off the path.

What the FUCK was I THINKING? Really, that loathsome woman who crawled into bed THREE TIMES -- no "oops" there, right? -- with someone she barely knew was ME??? That simply CANNOT be true. I DO NOT DO SHIT LIKE THAT. I am NOT that big of a BITCH. I make bad decisions but I am NOT so callow and cruel that I ACTIVELY DECIDE to make the EXACT same decision that I KNOW FOR A FACT is going to hurt ANYONE, much less my H, THREE TIMES.

WHERE DID I GO? I'm still breathing so I must be around here somewhere. I HATE looking for things, which is why I never lose them.

I think the disconnect is making me certifiable.

Edited to add: my H "caught" me crying and asked me again what was wrong. I told him again, and he said the first time it went in one ear and out the other. He said he thinks about the A far less frequently, he wants to build a great M with me, yes, he's mad, but at lot of his anger directed at himself for treating me the way he did and it makes him cringe to look back at it, so he tries to avoid thinking about it (who here can't identify with that concept?) He said the way to rebuild trust was to create a great relationship -- that my contentment in the M is what will make him feel safe again.

And he is just glad I didn't divorce him. On DD1 and 2, I told him I wanted a D. He didn't. He is grateful to me for staying and working as hard as I have, which he acknowledges, just as I am grateful to him for being willing to stay in the M and change his behavior.

Interesting how easily miscommunication happens. What I heard him saying last night was that he was so angry at ME that it scared him because that was consistent with what I had read would happen, but what he was saying was the scary part of his anger was the part directed at himself because he doesn't like looking at his part in things.

Someone posted on another thread that the percentage of fault in the condition of the pre-A M is a factor in the reaction of the BS, and a 80/20 allocation is going to yield a different reaction than a 20/80 allocation. I think that's right.

I have read a lot of posts about the intensity and duration of the BS's pain and anger, and been living in existential dread, but I think I'm living in dread of something that is never going to happen because my H is owning his part in the condition of the M pre-A and he knows how remorseful, repentant and in fact stunned I am over my behavior.

I know its a roller coaster and this may not last, but 35 years of knowing him tells me it will. The way he is acting is consistent with his temperament. Identify the problem, develop a solution, implement the plan and move on.

I feel peaceful for the first time in months.

[This message edited by hopefulwife1985 at 5:39 PM, September 8th (Wednesday)]

You sound like you are in a much better place, post-edit, than you were prior. I'm glad you and your H did some talking. You write very compellingly, you know.

Ambien kicked in and I have no idea what I said after that. I HATE IT WHEN HE DOES THAT. Sometimes we have sex and I don't remember it and the only way I know is that I have no underwear on when I get up. I hate it when he does that too.

I just want to say, I think this is definitely bad behavior on his part. Especially considering your trust issues. I am pretty sure this would be a Very Big Deal for me, if I were in your shoes.

I know that he hates seeing me upset and that is part of the dynamic.

How does that usually play out in your relationship with him? Do you feel like you have to "fake it" or does he try too hard to fix things, or what?

What the FUCK was I THINKING? Really, that loathsome woman who crawled into bed THREE TIMES -- no "oops" there, right? -- with someone she barely knew was ME??? That simply CANNOT be true. I DO NOT DO SHIT LIKE THAT. I am NOT that big of a BITCH. I make bad decisions but I am NOT so callow and cruel that I ACTIVELY DECIDE to make the EXACT same decision that I KNOW FOR A FACT is going to hurt ANYONE, much less my H, THREE TIMES.

I don't know you, but I think I can say, with a high degree of certainty, that that woman was in enormous pain for a long time before she grew so desperate to escape it.

It is OK to have enough compassion for yourself to let healing happen. Or, so I'm told. Some days are better than others. As you obviously know.

I have read this whole thread. I really feel for you. You feel empty inside. the only way to fill This void is with you. You need to make you happy. What makes you happy? Looking to others for external happiness...I get this. But it doesn't work.

IC can help, but ultimately it has to be your choice to change your life to

make yourself happy.

The thing about thinking of OM when bored, sad...BTDT. It is a safety net.

This morning, he wouldn't tell me

what I said -- he says it was no big deal. I was clearly in a bad mood, and told him, again, how upset it makes me when we talk after I take my Ambien.

Ambien kicked in and I have no idea

what I said after that

Hang on just a minute. You call it "your Ambien" and you can't remember what you say after

this?!?!

You are ABUSING a prescription drug. Here is one way you can start working on you. Quit drugging yourself at night with Ambien, a drug that is not supposed to be used longterm by the way. Wake up and

start living life.

Try some walk milk instead.

"I know its a roller coaster and this may not last, but 35 years of knowing him tells me it will. The way he is acting is consistent with his temperament. Identify the problem, develop a solution, implement the plan and move on."

Well aren't you lucky. YOU feel better. It is still about you. How about BH

Is this really the best you can do?

[This message edited by Mrs Panda at 8:21 PM, September 8th (Wednesday)]

How does that usually play out in your relationship with him? Do you feel like you have to "fake it" or does he try too hard to fix things, or what?

I fake it. He tries to fix. The whole thing has been somewhat spastic. It's better now. I'm living more consciously rather than reactively. I found my voice. That matters. It's good for me and it's good for him.

I am pretty sure this would be a Very Big Deal for me,

It is a Very Big Deal for me because it is part of a long term pattern of taking advantage of my points of vulnerability to get what he wants. I'm going to talk to him about it, but I haven't quite worked out what I have to say as I want to tie it into the pattern.

After I talk to him, he won't do it again. I guarantee that.

I don't know you, but I think I can say, with a high degree of certainty, that that woman was in enormous pain for a long time before she grew so desperate to escape it.

Yea, moving from source of pain B to source of worse pain A is not a good strategy.

It is OK to have enough compassion for yourself to let healing happen.

I actually do have compassion for myself. I don't post about it because it makes people ballistic. See below.

Well aren't you lucky.

Yes, I am.

YOU feel better.

Yes, I do. Does me feeling better take something away from my BH?

It is still about you.

Of course it is. I'm the one here posting.

How about BH

How about him? Is there a question in there somewhere, or was that just an attempt to trigger my guilt and shame?

I'm not a mindreader. I'm breaking lifelong pattern and expecting him to be honest with me and taking him at his word. Here is what he said:

"He said he thinks about the A far less frequently, he wants to build a great M with me, yes, he's mad, but at lot of his anger directed at himself for treating me the way he did and it makes him cringe to look back at it, so he tries to avoid thinking about it (who here can't identify with that concept?) He said the way to rebuild trust was to create a great relationship -- that my contentment in the M is what will make him feel safe again.

And he is just glad I didn't divorce him. On DD1 and 2, I told him I wanted a D. He didn't. He is grateful to me for staying and working as hard as I have, which he acknowledges, just as I am grateful to him for being willing to stay in the M and change his behavior."

Quit drugging yourself at night with Ambien,

I take a prescription drug prescribed by a licensed medical doctor in accordance with his instructions. Are you really, seriously, challenging that? Some drugs have side effects. Memory loss is a side effect of Ambien.

Is this really the best you can do?

Yes, it is.

I really feel for you.

No, you don't.

I am sorry that my post angered you. I can see you are thinking hard, and want to be happy, not empty.

It does concern me about the Ambien. It is not as addictive as benzodiazepams (ie. Xanax, Ativan, Valium), but I do question someone prescribing it long-term. Not all physicians are competent or have time enough to discuss important

issues. It is easier to just write a prescription.

I criticized you for posting about your feelings and not BH, because I thought it seemed unfair to bring up an important conversation, and then go take an Ambien without finishing

the conversation. I can only imagine that must be frustrating for him.

I am belaboring this I guess, and should probably have focused on the

positive aspects of your posts. But that is one of MY character flaws, I focus on the negatives too much.

I will stay off your threads if you want. I don't take criticism very well

myself. I could say I posted yesterday after taking an Ambien....my attempt at humor.

[This message edited by Mrs Panda at 8:15 PM, September 9th (Thursday)]

Mrs. Panda, I appreciate your response.

The Ambien thing is what it is. I've been taking something to help me sleep for 15 years. My issue was BH taking advantage of the "still awake but won't remember window", which he knows well, after we've discussed the issue and reached an agreement. It is particularly egregious to me as I have no way of knowing the extent of the breach.

quote]I thought it seemed unfair to bring up an important conversation, and then go take an Ambien without finishing.

You raise a good point, and one I struggle with hourly.

I thought he closed the door on the conversation, and was trying to respect that. Knowing when to push and when to back off is tricky, particularly when I am trying to manage my fear at the same time.

I find all of my motives suspect, but try to remind myself that at the end of the day, having a good M is good for him too and that may involve me pushing him when he resists and my fear is screaming "don't do it!"

I can't help him heal if he won't let me anywhere near the wound, so I'm taking a holistic approach.

should probably have focused on the positive aspects of your posts.

I think this is important. We WS's are pretty good at beating ourselves up, and then we come here for more. Sometimes good days happen and need to be celebrated.

Actually, today is 2 month NC for me. I thought about posting a topic line of "I'm Feeling Proud Today" and listing all the good decisions I have made and the things I have done differently with a positive outcome that were really, really hard for me.

As I said to working-it-out there is a period of time between making the decision to live in a manner that is worthy of self esteem and building the record that tells you it is worth it that is very dangerous.

I still may do it, but it is a fragile feeling, and I'm not sure I want it bashed about.

Post here any time. I may not agree with you, but that doesn't mean your POV doesn't help me.

How to Agree to Disagree should be a course taught in law school. Or maybe in life school.

How to Agree to Disagree should be a course taught in law school. Or maybe in life school.

Yes, it should. There are at least three books in my house that cover this topic. But then, it still takes practice...

~L.

I find it hard to put into words what exactly bothers me about your story, and I guess it boils down to this: you chose to have an affair. Finding out what part of your value system, or decision making process, or moral compass, or lack of empathy, etc caused this is hugely important. It sounds to me like that's what you are trying to do and you are hitting all the WS notes: there is something wrong with me, I'm not cut out to be in a relationship, I should go be alone in a cabin in the woods so I stop poisoning the people I love, I can't do it, what's there to save and some more whaaaaambulance type excuses. I can't speak for all waywards but personally I hit all of those at one time or another.

In reality what you are doing is once again not opening up to your BS. Obviously I'm not there so bear in mind this is just the impression I get, but it sounds like you are trying to make decisions about whether or not you want to be with your BS without involving him in the decision making process. Are you giving your BS all the information HE needs to make decisions? I had a habit of having entire conversations with my BS in my head without ever actually involving her in it - predicting outcomes, almost mouthing both sides of the conversation.

Oh, and regarding the Ambien thing - I understand why you'd be uncomfortable talking about things when your defenses are down or when you might not remember later, but if that is the time HE feels safe discussing things with you (possibly because he thinks you'll be honest, or won't lie for once, or because he feels safer at that time, or just because he's feeling overwhelmed with emotions and doesn't particularly care how YOU feel right then and there) you should sit down and discuss that. If the thing that bothers you about it is not knowing what was said, get a voice recorder. If you are truly sorry for the pain you caused, sit down with him, tell him what the issue is and work out a solution for him. Not for you, for him.

Sorry if this all sounds harsh - I've hardly been the poster boy WS myself

In reality what you are doing is once again not opening up to your BS.

Opening up to my H has not historically turned out well for me. Staying armed all the time is exhausting. The A of course made it worse because I know he has that ace in his hole. He's only played it twice. The second time I calmly pointed out that he will always have that card to play, but that didn't change my feelings about the issue I was trying to resolve at that point. I think he heard me. I don't know if he resented it or not.

I'm trying to see if he can make it safe. He has a history of reacting to my feelings by trying to fix them or, worse, dismissing them. His favorite tactic is to tell me I'm being "irrational". If you have read much of my thread, you can imagine my reaction to that. I, in turn, try to prove that I am rational, but then question the validity of my feelings.

Solitude is preferable.

You are trying to make decisions about whether or not you want to be with your BS without involving him in the decision making process. Are you giving your BS all the information HE needs to make decisions?

He has some information. He is aware of some of my reservations about M, as opposed to my M. He says he is committed to making the M a safe place for me to feel free to take my life in whatever direction I choose. I won't know whether he can do what he says until I figure out what direction I want to go.

He is only marginally aware of my time of life issues. I'm going to post a new topic on that.

I think SI can be an excellent tool for starting a conversation with your spouse - you could try printing out a thread you find interesting and show it to him and ask what his opinion is.

Sometimes it's easier to discuss your own issues in the context of someone else's story - it's less threatening and you can get to a similar truth - plus it's good practice in discussing matters of the heart and mind, I think!