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I think about a few BS turned WS years out from dday and wonder if their A could have been prevented if they had acknowledged their brokenness instead of ignoring it.

This goes for WS, too. We don't acknowledge the extent of our brokenness. We ignore our brokenness and then take everyone out with us when we self destruct...

I think about a few BS turned WS years out from dday and wonder if their A could have been prevented if they had acknowledged their brokenness instead of ignoring it.

Admitting that I was broken, as in, "***BROKEN***" was hard. I had a core of strength in the first place, I held on and on and on... thinking I was okay, making it okay by my will alone and trying to pretend it was all fine or that I was making it fine... when it was not... If I had been honest about what I was feeling and sought out help to deal with it... I would like to think that I would have not become a WS in the first place.

"What if, if only" sucks. Hopefully some BS that is struggling and reading along will find the strength to reach out for IC and save themselves the pain of becoming a WS on top of the pain that they already have as a BS.

...Unless the BS is an eye for an eye, revenge type person. Some people feel better with that. I've met a few. They act as if their RA clears the slate so that the Marriage relationship starts over from that point. Literally. I can intellectually understand the mindset and even emotionally see the allure of clearing the board with an RA. I don't believe that RA's work the way a BS wants them to at the core.

If an RA is "Revenge" and the BS/WS don't get the response that they have envisioned from the FWS... Then the "Revenge Fantasy" is shattered. The FWS is not ever going to "hurt enough" or feel what the BS/WS felt. No two people feel pain in the exact same way. No two people are going to react in the same way. AND a FWS is going react differently dependent on where they are in their healing journey.

Starting to ramble about...

Thought provoking topic expansion...

If an RA is "Revenge" and the BS/WS don't get the response that they have envisioned from the FWS... Then the "Revenge Fantasy" is shattered. The FWS is not ever going to "hurt enough" or feel what the BS/WS felt. No two people feel pain in the exact same way. No two people are going to react in the same way. AND a FWS is going react differently dependent on where they are in their healing journey.

Truly. Because most often a BS isn't shattered because of the sex, or even the intimacy of your relationship.

It's because you've brought in witnesses.

When it's you versus me to the state of our marriage, no matter how good or bad it is, most people can deal. Abuse, neglect, abandonment -- most BS's can and have put up with a lot.

But the idea that you have a surprise witness or witnesses that you've been cultivating to spring on us, that's war. And the idea that we could go out and bring these people in ourselves seems a little toothless because it's after the fact.

I think less revenge affairs are routed in vengeance so much as, "See? I have people too!"

Admitting that I was broken, as in, "***BROKEN***" was hard. I had a core of strength in the first place, I held on and on and on... thinking I was okay, making it okay by my will alone and trying to pretend it was all fine or that I was making it fine... when it was not... If I had been honest about what I was feeling and sought out help to deal with it... I would like to think that I would have not become a WS in the first place.

Right. Which is why I think saying "something/someone didn't break me" is misguided and dangerous. It would be much better to say "this broke me but I can fix me." and I absolutely agree it applies to circumstances other than infidelity as well.

Revenge in any form is rarely a good idea.

As some one who learned the hard way that revenge doesn't have as good an aftertaste as you'd thought. Just to clarify I did not have an RA, I took revenge on AP in my first go round (diff relationship than mu current one).

Once thing that is hard for some BS to reconcile is that upon Dday they become broken. Things that were assumed no longer can be. It changes their perceptions of the world and the people in it.

BSs in this scenario don't have the benefit of learning coping (even unhealthy) mechanisms that those of us have had a life of experiences have. They latch onto the first unhealthy coping mechanism they can think of, it this messed up confused space they latch on to the thing that brought them to broken in the first place. In this vulnerable time a BS is often very susceptible to suggestion, even from their WS.

Heck, My W even suggested that I get a pass as a means of absolving her guilt and giving us a chance to be even, equal, etc. I haven't taken her up on it and don't plan to. After I explained to her why that wouldn't work, she realized why it was a bad idea.

In the interest of full disclosure. I have never cheated, but have been broken for pretty much most of my life (Damn FOOs). So I am speaking from that perspective.

Which is why I think saying "something/someone didn't break me" is misguided and dangerous. It would be much better to say "this broke me but I can fix me."

I don't think many people reach adulthood without "being broken" or having hairline fractures. It's many of those that attract people to each other. The bonds of dysfunction are very strong and continually feed each other.

The danger, in my opinion, is viewing dysfunction as situational. There are some BS that were attracted to the "breaks" in their WS's. They fit with their "breaks". They stopped being fans when that dysfunction was exported. As long as it was localized it was muy bueno.

That's why when some partners become healthy because of the work done their marriages don't last. The other spouse experiences that new health as kind of a betrayal in itself.

That's why when some partners become healthy because of the work done their marriages don't last. The other spouse experiences that new health as kind of a betrayal in itself.

*nods*

Wincings Sparkle,

You really hit the nail on the head with what you said about feeling like you had that core of strength and you could just go on and on like that forever and never needing to ask for help. That described me to a T, and still can today. I really struggle with that, it can make my H nuts. It is that total dysfunction of having learned to only trust myself and never letting anyone else in past my guard. To the point that I almost hurt myself after my back surgery because I wouldn't ask him for help. How insane is that? I really struggle with this mindset.

UO,

Again, the things you say always make me think!

This is a tough one. I haven't had a RA but trust me I've thought about it. It of course would be to make my WS "hurt" as much as I am, but I think also His A has made me so insecure that it would be a way of showing myself that I AM still attractive and desirable.. that if he decided to pick up and leave someday that I would be ok because someone else can be interested in me. I know it's a dumb way of thinking but I have thought it. And I know you don't need a man to be happy or to "make it" Luckily I have had the sense not to go there. I haven't done it and don't plan to, but I can understand why people do.

Really does he think that I have never been flurted with or even propositioned? I just loved him enough to not want to hurt him like that. AND of course, I wasn't interested because I thought I was in this GREAT relationship. (Jokes on me) Now....I kinda wish I had, after all... he was having so much fun during our marriage maybe I should have had more. But ya know even now in the middle of all this hurt I REALLY don't want to. In fact it makes me bitter toward all men. I'm kinda living under this black cloud where the whole world is full of horrible cheating husbands and whores. I find myself looking at younger pretty girls and giving them dirty looks (usually to myself) thinking "whore" and when a guy looks at me I think "go home to your wife and stop staring at other women...a--hole" Sounds funny writing it but thats my world right now. Sorry I'm rambling

Revenge...that is a topic I can write pages about. We all say nothing justifies the affair, and I agree but I have this voice in my head that keeps disagreeing.

What happens when WS affair breaks something in BS to the point that BS is not the same person anymore and BS becomes capable of revenge? AKA BS becomes a WS in waiting? What happens when a sense of injustice or justice become a driving force? What happens when a thoughts of equality or being equal again become the goal?

Deep down I think I was always capable of it, but I had very hard and rigid borders set in place that prevented me from going down that route. In my 13 years with my W I have never cheated on her or even came close although the was at least one opportunity I can think of.

After my WW LTA came to light those borders evaporated. I started to smile at women, I flirt with waitresses, I don't avoid bars and clubs anymore (something I hated in pre-affair days) and I became much friendlier to the opposite sex.

On my last business trip, I met 2 women and really had a good time with them. To make long story short, I had a chance to stay with them in the hotel room and likely sleep with both of them. I knew the offer was coming but until it was made I did not know what my choice would be. In the end I choose to say no and after that day cut contact with them but I was one "yes" or "ok" away from it (no physical borders were crossed, maybe that is why it was easier to say no). I would love to say that would always be my choice but then I would be lying to myself -- I just don't know.

Sorry I am rambling.

I keep hearing that there is no such thing as a revenge affair -- one affair is independent of the other but I keep thinking to my situation and how I would not be here if it was not for my WW infidelity. No it would not be right, but would it be just?

I keep hearing that there is no such thing as a revenge affair -- one affair is independent of the other but I keep thinking to my situation and how I would not be here if it was not for my WW infidelity. No it would not be right, but would it be just?

Rant-ish response/

And I wouldn't have been where I was if my husband hadn't said, "Get out of the house and quit bugging me or I'm getting a divorce." No it wasn't right but was it just? I was doing what he told me too. He was threatening to divorce me. That means that my A was alright, right??? That is when I snapped. I remember walking out of the house with both of the kids and crying all the way to my mothers. So he broke me. I was cracked already but my BS broke me long before I betrayed him.

Bullshit. Just Bullshit.

Revenge served hot or cold, in bed or out, Subconscious or not, is still Revenge.

/End Rant

Just say'n...

piggy back on W_S's ventish rant...

And I wouldn't have been where I was if my husband hadn't said, "Get out of the house and quit bugging me or I'm getting a divorce." No it wasn't right but was it just? I was doing what he told me too. He was threatening to divorce me. That means that my A was alright, right??? That is when I snapped. I remember walking out of the house with both of the kids and crying all the way to my mothers. So he broke me. I was cracked already but my BS broke me long before I betrayed him.

Yep! And I wouldn't be where I was if my husband hadn't lost all of our money, drank 10-12 beers a night, punched holes in walls if he didn't hit his flush on the river and spent hours on the computer while I begged him to have sex with me.

He had it coming, right? It was just? MY affair was ok because he was a douchy, gambling alcoholic? How is it any different? Do you think an affair causes MORE brokenness than all of the things listed above? Or are those things listed just the normal problems of marriage (as my H STILL calls them...) Yeah, normal problems. Not picking up your socks and leaving the toilet seat up and infrequent sex are normal problems of marriage...

The brokenness that was in me caused ME to choose the WRONG "revenge." My best friend actually said to me after she found out about my affair, "Well, JEEEZ!!! What in the hell did he THINKwas gonna happen after treating you like shit for 10 years???"

Ummm... Say what, now? Gross... An affair is justified in xyz situation but not in jkl situation? As long as the offense is similar it's ok?

Bullshit is right...

Oh man, WS that line about your BS broke you long before you betrayed him really hit a nerve with me. Because that was exactly how I felt. And it enraged me. I didn't want to be broken, and I certainly didn't want to end up betraying everything think I had ever stood for ......but I did.

And the fact that I did that has been the hardest thing to accept in this whole mess.The fact that I just snapped in two when it got really rough, and as you say, the fracture line was already there, in place just waiting for something to come along and add the stress to break it.

That term of soul suicide always gets to me, because that was how I felt the first year, soulless.

I have found my footing now, but if any BS thinks that there is justice or revenge or this in any way levels the playing field, well maybe you haven't spent enough time over here in WW to see the pain, and I am not getting into a comparison war over who's is greater. But there is a pain that is deep when you know that you have betrayed everything you thought you knew about yourself.

So yeah, it is bullshit.

And the all-time winner… You fucked someone else? Fine… Watch this…

"Get out of the house and quit bugging me or I'm getting a divorce." No it wasn't right but was it just?

He had it coming, right? It was just? MY affair was ok because he was a douchy, gambling alcoholic? How is it any different?

I've tried to stay off this thread...mostly because I don't want to appear as insensitive to any one that is here doing their work. I understand how a FWS has worked hard to achieve such a level of accountability and that where anything calls into play what they see as an "excuse" is going to be met with vehement objections.

But this....these statements...honestly, I just find them hard to stomach. And since I have been called out on my ideas as being typical of "wayward thinking", I am going to call these as I see them.

These are some of the most minimizing statements I have read.

While I appreciate your perspective and your willingness to share, you don't have MY perspective. Even if your BS were to have a RA, you still won't have my perspective.

All those things you listed....those things that may or may not be normal in a marriage - and which, btw, are things I have experienced in relationships before so I can speak personally so as to compare them - how are they different?

Because they aren't hidden...they aren't steeped in the same level of deceit...and they don't set a double standard for a marriage.

Do you know what it's called when a BS knows about the outside activities of a WP? An open marriage. Even if I had not agreed to it and he had still done it, I wouldn't feel the same level of deceit and anger because at least I would have felt I had a choice in how I was going to live my life. It doesn't create the same level of victimization. It's that simple.

I have never, never seen a thread or discussion on here about ANY affair being good or right. Even a BS in the pits of despair usually still has the wisdom to understand that they aren't good or right. But when it comes to the concept of serving justice? You bet your ass I think it's just. And if you wanna pop that drunk, sleeping husband - who just gave you two black eyes last night - over the head with a wrought iron skillet...well, he's got it coming to him, too. Do I think it's right...or good? No. But I do think it's just. I would feel for you as a woman that had resorted to that...but I wouldn't feel one damn bit for your husband and his busted head.

Whatever my choices are, I am always and still responsible for them. I didn't have an affair in some of those above mentioned scenarios because I didn't think he deserved to have that happen. I ultimately didn't have an affair after becoming a BS because I didn't want to become that person - despite feeling like he deserved it. It took a lot more introspection and work on the second...because the one thing that kept me from doing in the earlier situations was the very thing that was giving me difficulty in the latter.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 4:06 PM, November 4th (Friday)]

These are some of the most minimizing statements I have read.

Exactly, they are supposed to be minimizing. The point was that there is not excuse for having an affair, no one else to blame...

Because they aren't hidden...they aren't steeped in the same level of deceit...and they don't set a double standard for a marriage.....It doesn't create the same level of victimization. It's that simple.

So being the victim of an affair is worse than being the victim of domestic abuse or rape...?

I am not going to get into a "who's pain is worse" debate. There is no way to quantify the pain people feel.

My BS did not break me. I was broken long before I snapped. There were everyday stresses in our lives. Normal shit. The point was to illustrate that If I had used similar wording to justify my A it would be bullshit because it is.

The selfish nature of an affair can be analyzed to the atomic level and the facts will always be excuses, rationalizations, and minimized with a dash of blame-shifting thrown in.

Owning your shit means a hell of a lot more to me. It means brutal honesty with myself.

"" Revenge is petty.

Edited to take out "Sometimes".

[This message edited by wincings_sparkle at 4:41 PM, November 4th (Friday)]

So being the victim of an affair is worse than being the victim of domestic abuse

Speaking from my own personal experience....YES! Unequivocally.

It's worse than the bottle or the cards, too...(which, unlike abuse, can both have some hidden aspects) because you are being disregarded, disrespected for a thing - not another person. Cards don't have fake boobs...and Jim Beam doesn't have a bigger c*ck.

Is that a healthy thought process...to compare yourself to the AP? Well...of course not. But many BSs are broken - even shattered - following dday. Should they be? Well, black pot - in all due respect -....I don't know.

The aspect of this discussion that I continue to point out is that a RA has an entirely different element that an initial affair doesn't have. I can tell you as a before-and-after affair debator, the thing that came in play in the after scenario was an entirely different beast. I've said it before but it bears repeating: It was no longer a battle between good and evil...between integrity and selfishness. It was now a battle between good and good - integrity and justice.

You can accept my perspective or not. But I'm not the only BS trying to say this. Just many of them go quiet after the first expression because somehow they are now held to a higher standard since they should "know better".

Your acknowledged and also intentional minimization of a RA may, in your mind, serve to make your point that all affairs are wrong. But from my perspective - even as a BS with 6 years post dday under my belt and mostly healed - that reads to me as one who still does not truly understand the extent of damage created to a BS. If anything, it is exactly that minimizing that most made me consider an affair. Not because I was angry. Not because I was lonely. Not because I needed validation. But because I needed him to understand...to understand exactly what I was experiencing.

Just my opinion here but...

if you are a WS whose BS has not had an affair, it is because your spouse has extended you grace. They have chosen grace and their own integrity over justice.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 5:36 PM, November 4th (Friday)]

What makes me so sad about these threads is that they completely deteriorate into revenge, justice, what's worse and completely loose any resemblance of the original topic.

FOR ME, the reason not to have a revenge affair is because it may fuck you up! Period. It's has absolutely nothing to do with morality or right and wrong.

Everyone has their own benchmarks when it comes to that. Some believe the affair broke the marriage contract so no one is held to the original terms. Some have very situational morality. I would never cheat on you UNLESS you cheat on me. Then game on.

However anyone determines what works for them is fine. My only issue with reading this type of thing on this site is the skewed way it's applied. I've read stories in JFO and General that I have to read twice to see if I read it wrong. Stories of violence, humiliation, damn near pimping then all the BS has to say is, then they cheated and it's like there is collective amnesia. Almost no one addresses it or if it is addressed it's very mild, don't beat yourself up, don't blame yourself. No matter what there is NEVER an excuse. I completely agree with that statement, by the way. There is never an excuse.

I just don't limit my application of that concept while others seem to at times.

TSMF, how are you or any other BS being held to a different standard? What should you be afforded you aren't being afforded now? It's has nothing to do with "knowing better". It's simple. If there as no excusable reason for your WS to cheat on you there isn't for you to cheat on them. Whatever understanding you are using for a fellow BS that makes wayward choices is the same understanding used to allow others actions to excuse yours. Isn't that what wayward thinking is? Allowing another's actions to justify your own? Getting into a pissing contest about what's worse is completely pointless. Something is either true or it isn't.

I didn't find my ex's infidelity worse than his domestic violence. Far from it. Guess what. I didn't use either to excuse my choices and have no one I'm answering to but myself. My pain resulted from my choices. That's one of the reasons I post here to share how damaging those choices can be. They may not be for everyone. If not that's fine. You (and that's a collective you) can be at peace and whatever anyone else thinks is none of their fucking concern anyway.

However, if you're (again collective) going to post in wayward and try and sell the same thought process as justified then that's an entirely different thing. You probably won't get confetti and parades and that "hard work a wayward does" that you reference is called learning how to live a healthy and authentic life. A huge part of that is owning your shit. It's incredibly freeing.

If BS's make choices and they're ok with them then there is no problem. If they're posting in wayward for advice there isn't two separate manuals...cheater and cheater lite.

abso-fucking-lutely!!!

if you are a WS whose BS has not had an affair, it is because your spouse has extended you grace. They have chosen grace and their own integrity over justice.

I agree that I have been extended Grace from my BS. I even understand the idea that he may have chosen integrity over justice in some views.

I feel like I understand that my BS feels like justice can not ever be met. There is no justice for unforgivables, only grace.

that reads to me as one who still does not truly understand the extent of damage created to a BS.

I will not ever know the true extent of the damage in my BS that I create with my affair. It is impossible for me to know. I can only empathize. I can recognize the changes in him, see the hurt (even now after we are reconciled).

a RA has an entirely different element that an initial affair doesn't have. I can tell you as a before-and-after affair debator, the thing that came in play in the after scenario was an entirely different beast. I've said it before but it bears repeating: It was no longer a battle between good and evil...between integrity and selfishness. It was now a battle between good and good - integrity and justice.

And to me this is so very insulting. To me, personally, this feels like minimizing. Are you saying that Because an RA would be justice, an eye for an eye, it is okay and somehow less evil?

I'm going to agree to disagree And wish you peace.

ETA: Nicely stated UO.

[This message edited by wincings_sparkle at 6:24 PM, November 4th (Friday)]

I have found this entire thread insulting.

So let me ask, because my H had an EA 17 yrs prior to my ONS, does that make what I did a RA, so am I therefore excused from what I did? Am I therefore afforded some kind of different treatment? And I can now stop doing all this hard work on myself, because now it is not all about me being the broken one, it is about him being the one who broke me? Because if I follow the thread of logic that has been going on here that is what is being said I can do!!!

Utter bullshit