SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

BS here so I will try to be gentle: The window to regaining trust after an affair is vanishingly small to begin with. Add to that the societal messages a BS receives, both directly and indirectly, that he would be a fool to trust again. Top that off with your repeated stubborn efforts to continue to reenforce that message. Put all of that together and that vanishingly small window of opportunity, if it hasn't closed already, is millimeters away from slamming shut for good.

So I am going to give you a piece of advice that might piss you off. If so I apologize in advance...

If you have anything still left undisclosed, anything at all, no matter how insignificant it might seem to you. Now is the time to get it out there.. I think that for many WS's that seems kind of counterintuitive. That it's like kicking the BS when he is down. I think there is this urge to let one shit storm die down and do some rebuilding before unleashing yet another one. That thought process is simply wrong. If you have anything left that you are holding back now is the time. Better to kick him when he is down then to let him get his feet back under him, drop his guard and then hit him again just when he is starting to regain his trust. Believe me the later hurts far more. And that is exactly what you have just done to your BH.

Three months after Dday I finally got the last (fuck I hope I am right about that) piece of TT from WOES. It was a stupid, meaningless, insignificant little detail. One that, had I been told it during the nightmarish first few weeks following Dday, would have had all the significance and impact of a fart in a windstorm. As it was though, after three months of rebuilding trust? That stupid little insignificant little lie got us closer to divorce than any other single detail in all of this mess.

Why? Because I simple didn't think I had it in me to trust anymore after that one. That was pretty much the straw that broke the camels back. My give a fuck pretty much got up and left the room, I was done. The only thing that pulled it all back together was WOES writing me an increadibly detailed, honest, and painful timeline while I was crashing on my friends couch researching divorce lawyers. It was that close.

It took that timeline, and a polygraph the following month to get me to even be able to consider trying to trust her again. Even over a year later I would have to say that trust is still far from back. It's still a work in progress.

So, I don't know, maybe there is nothing left to tell. If so, good for you. But getting him to believe that at this point may be difficult to achieve. Think about it. You might even consider offering a poly, some people are against them, but for me it was a neccisart piece of regaining even a little bit of trust.

I wish you luck and speedy healing. You've got a good man there, try not to fuck him up anymore than you already have, ok?

HT

OctoberMest: Your post rings of familiarity. Before I go into the why, I will tell you that in my eyes, our R is hitting some very rough patches lately. The early warning signs were similar to yours.

Understand that what I have to say is meant to help you and your BH. The way you handled the first chapter of your post-affair era may turn out to be a recurring theme in the following chapters of your R. I'm really afraid for your BH and you because I think your secret letter may go deeper than you are ready to explore, admit or own. Maybe you don't realize it yet. Do you see how the letter you sent behind BH's back "set" the tone of your R? I said "set" because IMO it was very controlling, manipulative, and passive-aggressive. IMO, the same applies to infidelity. Where, when, or how do those behaviors stop? I'm not a psychologist, I am only speaking from experience. Can you or are you willing to correct these behaviors if they are true?

Our 1st NC letter (certified)was tainted because WSO forewarned OW via a "friend", downplayed it and undermined it's sincerity so it was returned stamped "refused." As in your case, this painted a completely different picture from what I believed and what your BH was believing at the time. It was/is devastating and cruel. Knowing this, do you think, want, or have the capacity to be truly remorseful?

I didn't want to be seen as a 'bad person' in the OM's eyes and was trying to 'soften the blow'.

This sounds like something my WSO could say to justify or excuse tipping off OW. Even though you knew the secret letter was another betrayal, you chose the fall back plan, renigging on your sincerity and commitment to NC and your R. I sincerely hope you don't care how OM feels or what he thinks of you anymore. Where are your loyalties and priorities going to be in the future? Will you choose to hide what you are doing from your BH rather than learning how to talk through differences of opinion and situations that affect your marriage?

If you dig deep now and address whatever issues have misguided you in the past, your healing will begin.

Thanks again all. For the two by fours, the comments made to provoke me to seek deeper into it why I wrote that letter but also why I lied.

LH and I did a lot of talking tonight. I've understood a lot about how I have basically still been minimising and scared to say this simple fact out loud.

I did somehong

Your BH received communication from the AP because YOU gave the lighter and fluid to the AP and pointed him over toward the BBQ pit.

It sounds like you COULD give 2 shits and a fuck about the AP because you HAVE already. Three times, in fact. Plus, you go out of your way to try to prove the contrary.

Yes this is true. regardless of my feelings now, I understand my actions have shown I COULD still care and as the BH why would you not still think that. My continued lies to cover this up have done nothing to show I don't care about the AP, only suggest I do. :(

Again I see it's all about the actions. If they contradict my words and feelings, as I have done in this case, then BH is left betrayed again.

SLH: you've quoted my reply I wrote before the last one. Having talked to LH last night, I tried to do what was advised here, and by BS's on his thread, which is turn the spotlight on me and strip down the actions.

Last night I started to try and do that. I lied about something I should have never done and once done should have disclosed immediately. I betrayed LH again. I have set us back in R, but we are trying to get through this.

holding together: I did offer a polygraph test, even before this was suggested. He's declined so far. The offer still holds.

At the start of this thread I was panicking and did minimise my actions on here. I reread the posts and see that, like LH sees that as do all of you.

I broke NC the day after we wrote NC email together.

I kept that secret.

I continued to lie about that until yesterday.

I told him the truth only when we had been challenged and it became high risk that this would come out from elsewhere.

I did this for the purely selfish reason that I was afraid he'd leave once I told him. I was protecting myself and not my BH.

I have to work to change my lying habits. Even the reflex "white lie" - sorry i'm late, bad traffic - etc. I am a panic lier. I am a minimiser.

I am a "don't want to hurt anyone" lier. None of these lies will achieve good at any point. Most importantly I've spent a good proportion of time lying to myself about stuff.

LH knows all of it. I still have a lot of work to fix me. I've given myself a mantra to say before I answer any question now: the truth will set you free. This is just a starting point.

dont know why this has got out of sync?

[This message edited by OktoberMest at 3:13 PM, March 15th (Thursday)]

This action I did months ago

This is not true. This is an action that you did up until and including yesterday, when your BH found out. You were still lying to him yesterday, this is not months ago.

double post.

[This message edited by LonelyHusband at 7:05 AM, March 16th (Friday)]

I told her last night that she needs to stop pretending to be the person she wishes she always was, and do the work to be the person she wants to be. she cannot hide behind flowerly language. I see through it when she posts on SI, and it's rerassuring to see that you guys too. she knows what to say, but it is insulting to everyone here because we see through it. I want to thank you for picking up on it

My opinion is that the A really isn't as big of an issue sometimes, but that it is the fuckupedness of the WS that has to be dealt with.

I'm not spending any time figuring out the AP's actions. I couldn't give a shit about him, I just twigged that the last contact from me at the start of Dec was this letter from me, and can see why now we have contact from the OM.

But you just spent time writing the NC letters, worrying about how you came across then rewriting them again unbeknownst to your H while using your own mom as a conduit in communication between yourself and the AP.

Your BH received communication from the AP because YOU gave the lighter and fluid to the AP and pointed him over toward the BBQ pit.

It sounds like you COULD give 2 shits and a fuck about the AP because you HAVE already. Three times, in fact. Plus, you go out of your way to try to prove the contrary.

I didn't mean to appear feeling sorry for myself - I'm angry at myself so not telling him about the letter at the time...or frankly ANY time before now. I'm also trying to admit I was wrong and this was and is NO EXCUSE for not telling my BH this before now. :(

Your post was dripping with, "I fucked up. I'm going to go ahead and say I hate myself and I'm a cow so others will feel bad and not lay down the 2x4's and if I bang myself up hard enough they will back off. If I go ahead and think of everything the others will say ahead of time and post it, then I won't have to deal with the feeling of my butt itching when someone DOES point something out. Don't want to to sound redundant do we?"

I have been NC since this start of Dec and have NO INTEReST in starting contact again with the OM.

Wrong. You are still in mental contact with the AP. So, no. You haven't been NC since Dec. and, YES. You HAVE shown interest in contacting the AP because you were worried about how he would take the NC letters and tried to smooth things over for him. Poor baby, try again.

I'm posting here on the WS forum for two reasons

1. To thank everyone for listening to OktoberMest but not giving her room to hide. You guys are the best

2. To hopefully gently reign in some of the accusations.

The thanks

Genuinely. Thanks. Bs's get a lot of support here, but there probably isn't enough for WS's. I don't think they need patting on the back, or comforting, they need ot be gently pointed in the right direction when they tride to hide form the truth, or start thinking "waywardy" again. For the record, you guys are awesome at that. That's what happened here. OktoberMest is a veterinarian. She's astonishingly intelligent, and I think that does her no favours sometimes. She knows how to say the right things on here. She knows how to pre-empt what people will say and attempt to defuse it. She has tried to minimise and avoid the truth until you guys left her no-where to hide, and I wanted to thank you for that.

She has known all along that breaking NC was wrong. She has only yesterday accepted that it was nothing to do with "reinforcing NC". It was all selfish. It was not wanting to be seen as the bad guy. It was trying to let the OM down gently. I genuinely do not believe she was consciously trying to leave a door open with the OM, but she now accepts that this is precisely what happened. She also accepts that she has lied and lied about this, not for any other reason that she was scared of the consequences of telling the truth. She has a lot of work to do in this area.

The lies to me over the past three months of reconciliation are unacceptable. She has to stop this, and stop it now, or she is going to wake up alone one day wondering what happened to her life. I told her last night that she needs to stop pretending to be the person she wishes she always was, and do the work to be the person she wants to be. she cannot hide behind flowerly language. I see through it when she posts on SI, and it's rerassuring to see that you guys too. she knows what to say, but it is insulting to everyone here because we see through it. I want to thank you for picking up on it

The Gentle reigning in

It is my firm belief that OktoberMEst is NOT in contact with the OM. Moreover, I do not believe she is mentally breaking NC either. If anything she tries hard to box up the events of six months ago and forget about them, something I do not believe is healthy but is NOt the same as holding a candle for the OM. The breaking of NC was done on the 11th of Decmeber, one day after we started reconciling. I can forgive this. She was hopelessly addicted to the OM, and her loyalties lay with him, not with me. That hurts like hell, but I get it. I can see why a WS would be like that. I felt her loyalties switching from him to me in the first month of reconciliation, and am now convinced that she wants her marriage to work, but that she is just starting to realise that she cannot minimise and hide from the cold light under which she must examine herself. I will not permit it. For all her faults, still being emotionally in the affair isn't one of them.

Most of what she posted yesterday was just bullshit - attempts to minimise, avoid the painful truth, pre-empt people having a pop at her, etc. You guys all picked up on that and I wanted to thank you for doing so. However, towards the end of the day clarity started to come from her and I feel that this was missed a little. WSs need encouragement as well as 2X4s.

The truth is the truth. It's plain, it's simple. She broke NC. She then lied about it, repeatedly, whilst swearing repeatedly that I knew everything. The reality is that I didn't know everything. She chose to keep a secret between her and the OM.

I am "a little put out" about this to say the least, and even more annoyed about the lying through reconciliation but I am giving her another chance to stop dancing around the truth, and just speak it. this hasn't put us back to the beginning, but it has definitely put us back. I feel betrayed and confused as to what to believe. I feel like the consolation prize.

I will duck out of this thread now as she needs her support, AND her 2X4s. Thanks for the great work guys.

LH

EDIT - this thread seems to be out of sync. Both OktoberMest and I have posted on it today, yet our posts are not appearing at the bottom.

[This message edited by LonelyHusband at 10:37 AM, March 16th (Friday)]

((((OM & LH))))

OM

I am assuming that transparency is going to be a goal for R going forward?

Also maybe finding out why this is so difficult for you?

I can tell you that living on with someone who doesn't know how to be transparent with their partner is very difficult. I hope you can learn to do that for yourself and your M

I know yesterday was difficult, good job for sticking in there and getting to the bottom of it.

[This message edited by tired girl at 10:06 AM, March 16th (Friday)]

It is my firm belief that OktoberMEst is NOT in contact with the OM. Moreover, I do not believe she is mentally breaking NC either. If anything she tries hard to box up the events of six months ago and forget about them, something I do not believe is healthy but is NOt the same as holding a candle for the OM. The breaking of NC was done on the 11th of Decmeber, one day after we started reconciling.

Reading this thread and especially your thread there seemed to be confusion over broken NC (past vs present) and TT in the responses. It's good you address this but a shame with all you are going through right now that you need to.

She was hopelessly addicted to the OM, and her loyalties lay with him, not with me. That hurts like hell, but I get it. I can see why a WS would be like that. I felt her loyalties switching from him to me in the first month of reconciliation, and am now convinced that she wants her marriage to work, but that she is just starting to realise that she cannot minimise and hide from the cold light under which she must examine herself.

I'm gonna throw this out there cuz I see things a bit differently. It seems like her loyalties were to the OM and not you. Of course that hurts like hell.

It may even seem to her that's where her loyalties were but I don't think the OM is relevant at all. Her loyalties were to herself -- not the OM and not you.

To not look like the bad guy is self focused. To have an affair is self focused. To not tell you the truth (tt) about the letter after the NC letter for self-preservation reasons is self focused.

Her loyalties have to shift away from being self focused. She's not there yet.

It was not wanting to be seen as the bad guy. It was trying to let the OM down gently

LH, no offense is intended in my post. I don't see it that way. If I don't I'm going to post that and OM (and you by proxy) are quite free to disregard.

I'm not saying she still feels this as from her posts of how the two of you met and the timeframe with which things went down she may process feelings very quickly ... Feel intensly then not so much. I'm not buying the let down easy.

You have a vested interest in shaping things how you need to see them and that's fine. We are really good at providing support here to our members that are working through this as we are as well.

When we get to know members and see their progress it's an investment of time and caring. I know I'm not alone in wanting everyone here to succeed. Yes, there are stumbles and fails.

Some of the frustration comes from knowing this forum is often read by those seeking answers and hope. A wayward posts such internal focus and honest work is putting their journey out there as well as setting a bar. Look what I've figured out. Look what I now see. Here's what I've learned.

Gives other members a glance at what "getting it" looks like. To find out while those posts were written, advice given, they were living a lie blows on an epic level.

You aren't the only one that can feel betrayed.

There are members here that post their truth even though they are bracing for the fallout as they type. Admitting uncertainty, not telling all, residual feelings, not getting the why, being stuck on details, memories, anger, resentment, no remorse for the BS (raising hand here).

OM, this revelation came out because you knew the AP was not taking "being let down gently" well. Breaking no contact 3 times is not about not being seen as the bad guy. It's telling your BS what he needs to hear and telling the AP what you want him to know. Know how I know this? Actions. Your actions screamed it. You put the effort and care into what matters to you. We all do. You knew your BS found out what you did every step of the way yet you risked it regardless. There is a man out there that has in his possession proof of this.

I believe (not that it matters) that you are not investing in this path anymore. My concern is what happens next time. How much work are you doing on looking at your attachment style?

How quickly you develop feelings and how you can create permanence that enables you to build lasting healthy relationships. You're so not alone in this. I remember posts of yours I replied to when you first started posting here seeing some things that resonated strongly. I'm not saying I'm right. It doesn't hurt to examine it. I left/am leaving no stone unturned. Even had brain imaging done to see what areas were triggered. I honestly thought I was a psychopath or at least had some strong tendencies.

Above all, be honest about where you are in this journey. It can be very difficult and that's for members that don't have their spouses on this site. Even if it's just to yourself as you note areas that need focus, work, as you go.

Hang in there. You, I'm sure, are riding a bit of a high at not having the worst happen. Keep in mind that it's you that are really on the line here. Having someone that will love you and stick around regardless can be a great rug sweeping tool. Respect yourself too much to allow that to happen. Respect him to want to give him all he needs...truth, work, perseverance, strength.

He posted his pain and anger. He now posts to defend you. That costs. Dearly.

I'm gonna throw this out there cuz I see things a bit differently. It seems like her loyalties were to the OM and not you. Of course that hurts like hell.

It may even seem to her that's where her loyalties were but I don't think the OM is relevant at all. Her loyalties were to herself -- not the OM and not you.

To not look like the bad guy is self focused. To have an affair is self focused. To not tell you the truth (tt) about the letter after the NC letter for self-preservation reasons is self focused.

Her loyalties have to shift away from being self focused. She's not there yet.

FWIW this is how I see it too. I was and have been still until yesterday selfish. I had a lot of times in the last 4 months where I was doing good stuff for LH and me and our M which was selfish, but this was and has been completely wasted as underneath it all there has remained one final but VERY significant lie I keep hidden away. I didn't do it for the OM. I didn't do it for LH. I did it selfishly. Because i thought it'd protect me.

I didn't know LH had posted here for me until just now. I love this man. I have betrayed him; lied to him; cheated him and shown him the worst side of my character everyday since the A started.

If I do NOT change; if I continue to LIE and BETRAY him; if I continue to hide behind the flowery shit then he WILL leave me. I know this and he knows this. I know MANY of you and others are wondering why the hell he hasn't left me already, probably shaking your heads thinking there'll be a time when we get to that point. May be we won't make it. I know pretty much everyone here wants everyone else to R successfully, that's why SI's so great. But I also know it won't cut me any slack and that's why I'm here.

I'm good at hiding behind my protective wall. God knows I've spent 34 years perfecting that shell. Now I'm working to tear that down and get right to the core of the issues, figure out why they're there and hopefully fix them along the way. I know this is going to take YEARS. I'm not trying to profess I've changed today into the marvellous WS who won't fuck up ever again.

Today I spent time coming to terms with the fact I'm a liar. There I've said it. I'm a liar. I learnt to lie about all sorts of stuff from a young age - mainly for protective reasons as a coping mechanism probably, I don't know yet. I've got a whole heap of work to do one this.

I have fought and fought against myself when I was fronted with the fact I'm a liar and until yesterday I'd done a really good job. Well actually a really successful job at hurting others and myself - which is a shit job by all accounts.

Don't get me wrong I'm not a pathological liar - I tell the truth about 98% of my day. Before the A hadn't told one lie to LH. Before the A we had total transparency. NOW we have that again.

Do I have a problem living with transparency and struggle with the concept. No. I don't. I lied about stuff I had secret and it's destroyed LH. It's damn near destroyed my M and emotionally I feel pretty battered too. I don't want secrets from LH. Now there are none. that's the only thing I feel ok about and it's bittersweet for obvious reasons.

UO: I have already looked into attachment types. Early in R someone posted a link to an external site about this topic - may be it was you. It was really helpful. LH and I both did the online quiz to type our personalities. We did this as we felt at the time (post A) and how we knew we felt pre A too. His had obviously shifted quite a lot. Mine had not. Made sense to us. I have not left this area unturned.

I have always had an attachment style in which I threw myself into my R heart first. Heart on my sleeve kind girl. Trust anyone who seemed trustworthy. Prone to EA's and we'e discussed how I've had many EA's before but changing between relationships. I'd never had a EA, recognised it for what it really was and how damaging it must have been to that SO at the time, and I'd never stayed in a relationship to worry about the aftermath. Likewise, when dumped or ended relationships in the past, I would be heart broken for a short time, then ping straight back and move on. Again, until LH I'd never partnered anyone I wanted to continue a R with. I thought the in love feeling was what the real love feeling was. Now I've learnt real love is about dedication. Selfless acts. Always doing something for your partner because they'll get pleasure from it. They pleasure and happiness IS your happiness. The rest is just chemical addiction. It feels great, but so can the real love. I watch the trailer for Titanic 3d today (ignoring the infidelity in this film for a bit). There's a glimpse of the scene where the elderly couple that owned Macy's dept store are just lying in bed together holding each other as the ship is sinking. They knew he'd not be allowed off the boat. We've been together for all this time, we're going to stay together is what she said to him. THAT'S real love. You NEVER have that in an A or from an A. You have that if you get through this shit. I hope we can all get there.

UO you raised something interesting for me though - about developing permanence in relationships. THIS is something I have struggled with in the past. I've been able to commit my heart to someone, but stopped short of my life. I have a few good starting points to work on with this one from my FoO and childhood, but where can I find more information about this relating to attachment types?

This revelation came out because I was afraid the OM would use it against us. SELFISH. Holding this quiet was only protecting ME.

You, I'm sure, are riding a bit of a high at not having the worst happen. Keep in mind that it's you that are really on the line here. Having someone that will love you and stick around regardless can be a great rug sweeping tool. Respect yourself too much to allow that to happen. Respect him to want to give him all he needs...truth, work, perseverance, strength.

I'm riding a new low actually. LH doesn't know if he's coming or going and the roller coaster is back with avengence. The worst could happen at any time. LH doesn't know if he wants to stay and R with a liar. Why should he? I wouldn't blame him for leaving, he have deserved support and love from SI, his friends and family. I know EXACTLY how thin the line is I'm treading.

He's put up with a huge amount. He's also made it CRYSTAL clear he won't be sticking around for anymore. Every moment since yesterday morning I'm expecting a call, saying he can't take it anymore. It doesn't matter how hard I work or if I have in fact told him the FULL truth now, it's too late. Those are my new three words I hear ringing around my head all the time right now. "It's too late". Well, I'm determined to smother the fat lady so she can't sing (Not sizest BTW). I refuse to rug sweep. I come from a family of rug sweeping extraordinaires and I refuse to continue the trend. I've already been trying to get my Mother to recognise rug sweeping as an issue of hers, as this ties in with a lot of stuff.

LH won't let me, I won't let me and sure as hell you lot won't let me.

UO I respect you opinion about whether I'm investing in R. I hope one day you can read a post from me or LH, or hopefully both of us which will make you change your mind.