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I'm going to take this thread in a bit of a different direction because I feel as if a big issue is being over-looked and it's become a *Aubrie needs to fix her self-image* issue. I can see why it took this turn, since she posted about her own insecurities and how she is affected by images of Photoshopped images.

BUT....The title is *Porn Boundaries*. NOT *Porn makes ME feel like shit*.

So here's my take (sorry MrAub if you're reading):

Whether to create one or not

This boundary was already in place. According to you it was put there 9-10 years ago.

He said it just wasn't his thing so we decided it wouldn't be a part of our lives.

^^^THAT was the agreement that was put in place. I understand that YOU broke that boundary, but that doesn't give him free reign to unilaterally break it also without having a discussion with you and telling you that he wants to re-negotiate that boundary.

He's always said that he doesn't like porn.

He *says* one thing....and then *acts* incongruently with that. Am I the only one that sees a problem with this that has nothing to do with Aub's self-image?

No, Aub....you don't need to *get away* (unless you want to, of course ). What you need is to have a partner whose words and actions align. Regardless of the subject matter.

Put a boundary around your writing time.

agreed... This is YOUR time. Embrace it.

I agree with gonna be - If it bothers you, and you would prefer he not look at it, then I think that is okay. Some couples have no issues with it, some women have no issues with it, but obviously you do, as I do now, I didn't used to, but my BH's addiction to it, certainly did help my insecurities.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't continue to work on yourself, but if this is detrimental to your healing, I believe it is okay to say no more porn.

Because frankly, I think it does interfere and it does affect how our partners view us, and I think there is an unrealistic expectation created with it, and it does take away from true intimacy with your partner.

ETA - Think how much more explosive your time together could be, if he could refrain from that outlet, when he was feeling a need. Keep it bottled up and bring it home to you. He has seen enough naked women in his life, that he can use his imagination instead of porn

[This message edited by WWMEH13 at 12:58 PM, May 30th (Thursday)]

Put a boundary around your writing time.

I will. Don't know that I can handle large doses at a time. :/

Yes Gonnabe, the porn boundary was in place from early in our relationship. So in essence, it was already created and he breached it. Just as I breached the infidelity boundary.

The images on his phone were not an accident. He had deliberately been looking at things and I found them. He played dumb and lied to me because he was ashamed.

He felt like we were drifting, he didn't feel right, and instead of talking to me, he chose to click images. That is the part that scares me a bit. He internalized his concern and didn't speak up. We've been trying so hard to talk more to one another and be open with our feelings. His issues with intimacy and abandonment are probably part of why he chose to look up porn as opposed to talking to me. His image searches were a result of a ball of hurt, confusion, internalizing, and not communicating. That is his to own.

I can't help fix what I don't know exists. Even then, I can only do so much. Just as I have had to learn and am still learning coping skills and healthier choices, he has to do the same.

We're talking about this. We're not finished talking about this. He stated last night that the rules are the same. No porn. I don't know what to do if it happens again.

All of that does not exclude me from my own work and I'm not looking for an out. I've been here this long and don't plan on bailing out, regardless of how hard it is. I'm tired of being a half-butt effort kind of a person. I want to be healthy, him to be healthy, and us to be healthy.

[This message edited by Aubrie84 at 1:04 PM, May 30th (Thursday)]

The "rules" have not changed. He chose to do his own thing.

He *says* one thing....and then *acts* incongruently with that.

I think Gonna makes a great point. This IS an issue as well. I think there are two separate issues to work on: self-esteem (personal) and porn boundaries (team). Even working on self-esteem, there was still a boundary that was crossed - since you guys already agreed there wouldn't be porn in your M.

Are you guys talking about how to honor the original boundaries, or are you negotiating changing them? Would you feel more comfortable keeping the original boundaries and keeping porn out of your M?

I want to read more. Last weekend, I purchased a papasan chair.

Absolutely no judgement from me. They look very comfortable, and more importantly, you got something you enjoy.

So this morning, I set my alarm an hour early, brewed some coffee, curled up in my papasan in the library, and read. It felt...nice, good, normal, natural.

That's exactly it. That IS how gradually you move towards healing self-esteem issues. You do things and remind yourself what you love about life. It's as simple as taking that time for yourself to relax and read. Because you chose to do it for yourself, because *you* like it. Taking care of yourself is how you move to healthy self-esteem.

Perhaps it helps to think of porn as similar to alcohol. For many people, alcohol really messes with their bodies - liver problems, headaches, etc. Or perhaps we or someone we know has had an addiction or a driving accident... We don't have to be around alcohol to prove to ourselves we can handle it. Sometimes the very best thing for us is to not be around it. Same with porn. If porn makes us feel sickened or upset, for whatever reason - self-conscious about our bodies, not liking to see people being exploited in certain venues of porn, etc. - then why should we make ourselves be around it?

ETA: Just saw your above post. It sounds like you are working through things together, still talking about it, and that's great.

That is his to own.

I can't help fix what I don't know exists. Even then, I can only do so much. Just as I have had to learn and am still learning coping skills and healthier choices, he has to do the same.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 1:22 PM, May 30th (Thursday)]

the porn boundary was in place from early in our relationship. So in essence, it was already created and he breached it. Just as I breached the infidelity boundary.

Clarify for me please: Who broke the porn boundary first? I'm pretty sure that Aubrie was swapping porn with her AP. I would think that blew up that boundary. If Aubrie and Hubby had not discusses new terms then there was nothing for Mr. A to breach.

I don't see this as a betrayal.

Lack of communication: Yes.

Betrayal: No.

His issues with intimacy and abandonment are probably...

Is this from Mr A or are you theorizing what you think he might be feeling?

IDK, I would ask if he was really ashamed or just fearful of your reaction.

There is a difference in feeling ashamed of something and not wanting to have someone angry at you for something they don't like but you do. KWIM?

This just feels wrong to me. Honestly, there had to be some part of you (Aubrie) that liked porn, just as Mr. A has a part that liked looking at porn. If you both have a part of you that likes porn and deny it because you both think that is what the other wants... that is not healthy. That is asking for an explosion of something later. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

We are not talking porn addiction here. That is not a factor at all in the Aubrie world.

Just thinking out loud. More communication is definitely needed here Aub.

Good Luck.

Who broke the porn boundary first?

Me. I blew up the boundary. Won't deny that. The rules were still the same after my confession. We both have been guilty of it. So what are you getting at? If one of us does something first, the other gets a free pass? Does lying and hiding something only qualify as miscommunication?

His issues with intimacy and abandonment are probably...

Is this from Mr A or are you theorizing what you think he might be feeling?

That's from him.

Honestly, there had to be some part of you (Aubrie) that liked porn

Honestly, no. I don't enjoy it even guiltily. There are multiple reasons for my dislike. However, it was currency for AP's affection and attention. Had he been in closer proximity to me, it would have been sex or other sexual favors. As it was, porn was the only currency at my disposal that seemed to attract and keep his attention. That included not only existing internet porn, but the exploitation of myself.

The rest I don't really feel comfortable hashing out publicly. Mr and I will continue talking.

Thanks for the help wincings.

IDK, I would ask if he was really ashamed or just fearful of your reaction.

There is a difference in feeling ashamed of something and not wanting to have someone angry at you for something they don't like but you do. KWIM?

This just feels wrong to me. Honestly, there had to be some part of you (Aubrie) that liked porn, just as Mr. A has a part that liked looking at porn. If you both have a part of you that likes porn and deny it because you both think that is what the other wants... that is not healthy. That is asking for an explosion of something later. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

that up there is golden...

its blatantly obvious that neither of you *reaaally* dislike porn, as shown by your respective actions.

And that's okay.

IMO, telling him "no more porn" is a mistake. Its demanding him to adapt an objective value that is obviously not one of his own.

I think a smarter way to go about this is to drop those decade old "boundaries" that likely had more to do with impressing the other than anything else, and actually talk honestly about the subject.

It seems clear that you don't actually dislike porn, you dislike the emotions it triggers in you due to your own insecurities and history.

my best guess is that his initial reaction was a simple and common knee-jerk. could've been based in fear of how he imagined your response, could've been him not wanting you to think less of him...don't know, but what we do know is that he is definitely NOT opposed to porn, its unrealistic to expect that to change because you "said so".

funny, I remember me and slhim posting about this same topic around this same timeframe.

good luck, hope date night goes well.

I still wish Mr Aubry would join us here...even if its just long enough to give him a proper moniker.

sorry, apparently you DO dislike porn.

can't edit right now.

The rest I don't really feel comfortable hashing out publicly. Mr and I will continue talking.

^^^Is good.

I'm just asking you to think about this carefully.

The rules were still the same after my confession.

Were they really? Did you assume they were the same or verbally say "No more porn for either of us." or "No more porn for me." Leaving the door open for Mr. A.

So what are you getting at? If one of us does something first, the other gets a free pass?

What I am getting at is you digging. You know there are no free passes. Tit for Tat is not how a good relationship works. Why are you angry at my questioning you? If you are angry or defensive there is something there.

Does lying and hiding something only qualify as miscommunication?

Depends on what is being hidden and why the lie. Sometimes what we think is hidden is just not important to the person and they don't think of it as "hidden"---just not shared. And like I said before, sometimes people lie to avoid anger in the moment. It is what it is and that is bad communication.

Stilllovingher: you dislike the emotions it triggers in you due to your own insecurities and history.

^^^^ This is something that will be brutal to examine. Looking that deeply into the abyss of the mind is necessary. Currency may be what you call it. Hate the way it was used. Truly, I get the thought pattern here.

I used my body as currency, I remember the feeling of selling myself for what I thought I needed at the time. What I won't deny is that there is a part of me that enjoyed being consumed.

Just because I enjoyed a part of the betrayal of myself and my BH doesn't mean that I can just say, "Oh no, I hate sex. Never going to do it again." That would be cutting out a major part of me and a big lie. Plus, my BH wouldn't want me to do that to myself or him. I don't know if I'm expressing this well.

There are parts of us that we salvage from the wreckage of the Affair. Things that are private that we think will be "bad to keep". Some of those parts are not "bad", some of those are pieces of ourselves that we were afraid to share with our spouse for fear of rejection. Part of healing is admitting to what we like and asking for the possibility of sharing that without judgement. It is amazing what can come of that kind of deep communication.

I don't have any issues with porn or a need for porn boundaries in our marriage, so I can't specifically speak to that but want to touch on this

That's exactly it. That IS how gradually you move towards healing self-esteem issues. You do things and remind yourself what you love about life

I can't tell you how truly important this is on the path to healing & self-fulfillment. In fact, finding time for myself to do things I enjoy, hell finding WHAT I enjoy has been an ongoing challenge for me..one that I am continuing to work on even 7 years after my A. In the past 3 months, I've started going to Yoga twice a week..1 hour, twice a week that is solely for me, for my benefit, for my healing & it has made ALL the difference in the world as far as self-fulfillment & self esteem issues go. In addition to that, I've began training for various 5K's in my area & that has helped too. I'm also a voracious reader, I have over 400 books on my Kindle, so I make sure I carve time out for that too.

Keep at it Aubrie, you are doing GREAT!

I wasn't going to post because I respect Aubrie's wishes to not discuss this further, but I think she will forgive. I'm not going to ask her questions about her situation specifically, because she knows it better than anyone and she's stated pretty clearly.

Am I the only one that sees a problem with this that has nothing to do with Aub's self-image?

No, Gonna you aren't.

We are not talking porn addiction here. That is not a factor at all in the Aubrie world.

While I would tend to agree with you -- we honestly have no way of knowing that. We don't live in their house. Or in someone else's mind for that matter.

my best guess is that his initial reaction was a simple and common knee-jerk. could've been based in fear of how he imagined your response, could've been him not wanting you to think less of him...don't know, but what we do know is that he is definitely NOT opposed to porn, its unrealistic to expect that to change because you "said so".

Sure there is merit to that, except the same could be said for a WS who is confronted by their BS for texting someone. They often give a knee-jerk reaction. A lot of WS's break NC and hide it because their BS will think less of them. SI preaches all the time that a WS is expected to change and go NC with AP simply because their BS 'said so'.

Sometimes what we think is hidden is just not important to the person and they don't think of it as "hidden"---just not shared.

Lies by omission?

And like I said before, sometimes people lie to avoid anger in the moment.

Conflict avoidance?

Two things that need to be addressed and dealt with, because they may seem benign but as we've all learned, they are linked to poor coping mechanisms.

Porn is such a hot topic. Those who have lived through the destruction of it have a far different view than those who have not. The same could be said about affairs. People relate porn to their own belief system, just as people relate the gravity of affairs to their own belief system. Not everyone agrees.

I understand that open and honest communication is the key. That being said, I'm surprised at what appears to be some 'wayward thinking' thrown in here being justified for some reason. Maybe I'm not seeing it as others are, because I relate it through my own lens.

Keep up the good work, Aubrie.

We ask for patience from our BSes to deal with our own Waywardness yet if they have any issue it somehow becomes Desperately necessary to "Fix it" so the BS doesn't slide down some imagined slipper slope.

Lies by omission? Conflict avoidance?

Maybe, Maybe not. Sometimes it is just simply not talked about because it is not thought about. It doesn't mean that it must have a sinister cast.

You could also look at all the blame-shifting going on in the mini saga. It is vague blame shifting. Assigning shame and whatnot onto a BH that was not a Wayward. Crying red-flag and whatnot at a BH that has been nothing but supportive and loving toward his WS.

I'm surprised at what appears to be some 'wayward thinking' thrown in here being justified for some reason.

I'm surprised by the projection of "wayward thinking" being thrown around.

Just because as a WS we think a certain way does not mean that every one else does. Most BS do not think like a WS. Why would they?

Pah. I'm done. Good luck Aubrie. I hope you work it out to your mutual satisfaction and it becomes a non-issue between the two of you.

Just because as a WS we think a certain way does not mean that every one else does. Most BS do not think like a WS. Why would they?

Because they are human.

Wincing, I respect your POV on a lot of things, but as you pointed out to Aubrie a few posts ago...

You know there are no free passes.

Even a loving and supportive BH can be made aware of a miss-step or a concern. A BH can have issues, that are his and his alone. You are assuming the shame is being assigned by a spouse here and not coming from within. Again, no way of knowing that.

After infidelity, people are hypervigilant about a lot of things, things that wouldn't have registered on their radar prior are looked at in a whole new light. Awareness does that. Ideas about things change on both sides.

Who said 'sinister'? I wasn't implying possible 'wayward thinking' was sinister. There is a difference between that and being cautiously aware of a slippery slope. And who determines whether someone else's determination of that slope is real or imagined, valid or invalid?

It seems like you got defensive because I questioned this. Why do I think that?

Pah. I'm done.

Like I said, we are seeing different things here from our own experiences.

Here is a gentle reminder to everyone...

Not all people that watch porn are addicts and/or preverts, please listen to what Aubrie is saying.

Support Aubrie's concerns and stop trying to re-adjust her words to fit something that isn't even there.

[This message edited by Deeply Scared at 9:03 AM, May 31st (Friday)]

Cheese and crackers people. *sigh*

Ya know, I get that each person is individual in their beliefs, likes, and dislikes. Everyone has their own feelings on every subject matter under the sun. However, when you're in a relationship, there's a little thing called respect of one another's feelings. Maybe it's a trivial example, but I wear certain articles of clothing because my husband likes it and I respect his preference and it's not a big deal to me to switch. Same thing for him. He has done and still does things that I prefer over his normal method. (Please don't start arguing whether that's respect, conflict avoidance, or codependency)

Whether we're talking the color of shoe laces or something as controversial as porn, the respect for one another's feelings is important and a factor whether we should/shouldn't do something. But because in this conversation it's *porn*, it's suddenly all my problem and I should just shut up and get over it and inspect absolutely nothing but my problem with it and whether I'm being completely honest with myself, my spouse, my prudishness, etc. I'm being honest. With myself and my husband.

Never mind the fact that he had negative feelings about our relationship, didn't speak up, internalized, and took his anger and frustration out on me by looking up porn. (Doesn't matter if he likes it or not. Doesn't matter if I like it or not.) He could have easily picked up the phone and called/texted a designer in his office. And I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, had he taken that route, the comments here would be vastly different and I wouldn't be told I was making up imaginary red flags or vaguely blame-shifting. But because it was "only" porn, it's a no biggie and boys will be boys. No concern or red flag should be appropriated. I should give him a chance, turn a blind eye, and move on.

If I were to lie to my husband and hide something after Dday, I would be hung by the toenails. And rightly so. Doesn't matter if it's chronic nose picking or porn. I expect my husband to respect me the same way I respect him. We are both holding one another accountable in an much more strict and sober way. Did I blow that up previously? Did I blow up our relationship with infidelity? Did I blow up our relationship with porn? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

We have a new relationship now. We both know the terrible dangers in relationships of lack of communication and poor coping mechanisms. We both are working on communication, respect, and loyalty. So tell me again how him lying and hiding something because of his anger and frustration at me is healthy?

Bottom line, he said yet again last night, porn is not to be a part of our marriage. Doesn't matter if either party likes/enjoys it. We are mutually respecting one another's feelings and beliefs on it and refraining from that activity. Period. We're crystal clear on that. He has his own reasons for it. I have mine. Yes mine include my own negative experiences and insecurities about it. Is that healthy? Maybe not. I'm working on that. Not gonna happen overnight.

I don't *secretly* like porn. And I completely understand that it's "ok" if I do/don't/whatever. There's nothing to inspect there on that front. Don't like it. Period. During the A, I was physically sick when my AP started in on it. When he expressed disappointment that we didn't share that "common bond", I faked it. It's kinda easy to do when you're separated by over 300 miles. You can type, click, copy and paste anything and they're none the wiser. I lied to him about who I was, my name, location, and other things. What's the difference about lying about like/dislike of porn? Nothing.

The rules were still the same after my confession.

Were they really? Did you assume they were the same or verbally say "No more porn for either of us." or "No more porn for me." Leaving the door open for Mr. A.

Yes really. No open doors. For either of us.

I'll be frank. Right now I'm shaking in my shoes. Because I have a belief and a feeling, still forming, that is being challenged. My background is full of, "I'm the adult, you are the child, Shut up, don't think, and obey." then when I hit adulthood, I'm supposed to automatically know the right way to handle everything. I'm developing nerve. The ability to stand up for myself even when people don't agree with me, voraciously defend their POV, and push. I don't even have to reply to this thread anymore if I so wish. But I do because I am voicing what is in my head. I started this conversation and as nervous as I am, will say what I feel/think. I do find it curious that I'm told I'm angry when questioning a thought though. Does it have to be anger? Or standing up for what I believe in?

Subject closed. We'll figure the rest out on our own.

starrysky

Today was day two of getting up early and reading before the kids wake. (This is major because I'm so not a morning person) I like the stillness and quiet of the house, the relaxing moments before the kids wake and the house settles into noisy chaos. I feel more centered and calm. In only two days!? I'm still looking into other enriching things for "me" time. Work in progress.

SLHer

We both laughed at a "proper moniker" for Hubs. Mr. Aubrie just doesn't sound very masculine or cool and I kinda hate the term too, but we both agree it still beats the standard, clinical sound of, "My BS". I don't know if he'll register, even for a proper name. Maybe he and I will pow-wow later and find a new reference for him here.

Date night went exceptionally well, thank you. Even better, we held hands and conquered a trigger/fear together.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts, comments, POV, pushing, prodding, challenging. I really appreciate it.

[This message edited by Aubrie84 at 9:43 AM, May 31st (Friday)]

Aubrie,

Proud of you for standing up for yourself, your beliefs and tackling the hard subjects.

I'm totally done playing devils advocate. I am so glad to see the growth that you have gone through in your time on SI.

You and Mr. should both be well satisfied with the discussion and your decisions. You two rock.

BTW: I believe that porn really doesn't bring anything to a marriage. For me personally, I don't believe that it is a healthy outlet. I don't think it has to be an unhealthy outlet for some people though.

Blessings to you Aubrie.

Aubrie,

Your POV regarding porn is crystal clear. I'm just just curious if the two if you have discussed his POV? I know he has agreed to not having porn as part of your relationship, but have you discussed his motives for looking at it in the first place?

There can be a couple of different ways if looking at this. One is that you used it heavily during your A. There could be a distinct possibility that as he is trying to work out his feelings regarding your A that he is trying to put those pieces together and make sense from it. That he is trying to understand what the big deal about it was. Why was it such an important part of your A. Perhaps wondering if you do secretly enjoy it. And without those talks you have recently been having not really having those answers.

The second is that he actually really enjoys it. Maybe he isn't being completely honest with you about it and that's on him. That's something he needs to work out.

I understand that porn gives you triggers and you don't like it. That's fine. But if he does, then that is what you need to be talking about.

We are very sexual beings by nature. Unfortunately there is a lot of shame and stigma wrapped up in our view points regarding it. I think it's very important to discuss what really turns your spouse on. And sometimes you can find going outside your comfort zone can be very freeing.

I don't agree with his initial reaction. But I think there is much more to discuss between the two of you. HT and I have adopted a saying in our relationship which is GGG: Good, Giving , and Game. But you can't be any of those without discussing openly and honestly about what you want or like. Not just you, but the Mr. too.

I used to have all kinds of insecurities about sex which closely related to my body issues. But once I was able to really let go and have an open mind about it things changed and our sex life became amazing! Don't project your feelings about porn/sex onto him. Find out how he really feels about it all and then go from there. Try to keep an open mind despite your own personal triggers. I'm not saying give in but be careful of digging in your heels.

Chances are that him looking at porn actually had nothing to do with you. I think it's pretty clear that its you he wants.

wincings, thank you very much for your advice, insight, and pushing my buttons to make me dig deeper. I appreciate everything you brought to the table here.

(That goes for everyone else too)

WOES, you have brought up some very valid points. Open mind, patience, communication. Got it.

Thanks again all.

Pushing buttons to make people dig deeper is what I do, it's like my job description.