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So in a way, they are responsible. Their crap actions brought terrible consequences into their relationships and family member's lives.

Fair point.

I'll counter with.

'But I was in an abusive marriage, he called me horrible names all the time, went out till all hours, never told me where he was, came home drunk every night, spent the grocery money gambling, so I cheated'

Gee, obviously her husband bears some responibility for her cheating wouldn't you say, because he was a terrible person?

By the way, thank you for this chance for a bit of back and forth debate, I rarely get the opportunity.

ETA:

He was not legally guilty of the crime. How guilty do you imagine he felt though?

Brandon, excellent point. That's got me thinking.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 8:53 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

I have been thinking of this too but in the effects of ohhhh noo another affair destroys another family etc...when I first found out about OW I wanted to murder her. Not really--but in my mind I wish I could and it was a fantasy. But many people take the fantasy to reality.

I also know of a local situation where one man murdered people at his wife's job just shooting everyone in there. She was having an affair. This past July, a friend found out her H was having an affair and she put her head in an oven and killed herself. fact is--affairs end in some sort of death statistically.

It is one of the top reasons for murder.

Remember that female astronaut (she was married and in A with another astronaut) who she thought was cheating on her and became jealous.

She drove across the country in diapers (so she didn't have to stop) to confront the OW and she had stuff like rope and duct tape, etc in her car.

She publicly humiliated herself and her BS and family, lost her career, and who knows what the heck she was going to do to that OW.

And who can forget about that BS (a dentist I think) who ran over and over and over her WS with her car.

[This message edited by ionlytalkedtoher at 1:56 PM, March 30th (Sunday)]

SlowUptake,

I offer you the thought that something can be a significant contributing factor to a situation without it being a matter of 1:1 causation.

There is very little in the realm of human interaction where we can say if X then Y. But there is very much that we can say if X then the chances of Y are greater, particularly in the presence of this list of other factors as well. There are good reasons why the mathematics of social science are statistics.

Likewise, just because someone's actions do not generate a direct causal chain on someone else's behavior, it does not absolve them of having any influence on the outcome. Thinking in terms of someone being fully responsible at all or not responsible at all disregards the true complexity of the situation.

Cheating on, lying to and betraying your partner does not guarantee that they will perform a violent act, but it does increase the chances that this will happen if combined with the correct other factors.

To use an analogy, we may not have put the straw on that broke the camel's back, but throwing that fifty pound bag of excrement in the load sure didn't help matters.

We had hired the AP and his company to do some work for us. When I found out about the affair I went to the main office to confront the AP and the company. He was not in the office so I advised the company of his actions and that I was not happy with their fulfillment of their contract. Heck, I caught his disease and had to take time off of work. I was professional in my approach but apparently I scared the shit out of AP. Of course, ex wife probably had painted me out to be some horrible monster of a husband. So, he probably had no idea what to expect from me. He still hid himself when I still had to follow up with the company regarding their work. Here is a man twice my size who will continue to be in fear of me even though I wouldn't lay a hand on him.

Just recently I was working with a husband, wife, and their child with autism. A few weeks after meeting with them, the mother called to tell me that the husband was in jail as he became violent toward her. Turns out this guy had ties to the mafia (the wife was clueless). Apparently he was married once before and had spent time in jail. According to the DA, he pulled a knife and threatened his wife because he suspected that she was having an affair (not sure if she was or not). So, even though he is in jail, his current wife (the one I have met) and her autistic son are still being threatened. Turns out his past crimes have included "threats to national security." The wife now has a new identity.

Heck, I apparently didn't even know what kind of a person I was married to (found out a lot more about her after the divorce from her family). So, sometimes you just never know people; especially in an affair situation. And, you never know how people will react. The last thing I want is some pissed of husband who wants to beat the crap out of me.

Think I just had an Aha! moment.

Blame versus Responsibility.

Sublte difference, but still different.

'Obviously well heeled man, late at night, walks through a commonly known high crime rate neighbourhood,

gets mugged'

Mugger is to blame 100%.

Well heeled man bears some responsibility.

He is an adult with a brain, who put himself in a dangerous situation, when there were lots of other safer options.

Not the best analogy, but the best I could come up with.

What say you?

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 11:23 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

I don't think my fWH has ever gotten the point of recognizing the danger he put me or our children in. EVER! Even 6 years later with her stalking he wants to know why I can't just ignore her and move on.

But then do we apply the logic to this scenario.

'Attractive young woman, dressed to kill, in bar alone, drinks a little too much, makes out with guy in bar, goes back to his place, he wants sex, she doesn't want to, he rapes her'

Blame 100% his.

Some responsibility for putting herself in a dangerous situation?

I know what the PC answer is.

Your views.

ETA:

My very strong unwaivering view is any concept of 'victim responsibility' should not form any part of criminal proceedings in such a scenario or any other for that matter.

It pisses me off no end that scum sucking defense lawyers use this unethical tactic.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 11:35 PM, January 2nd (Thursday)]

Since we're sharing anecdotes... how about the astronaut in diapers?

Also, it doesn't have to be murder. How about general Petraeus? He lost his job.

Now my personal opinion. I'm a really easy going guy. Even after D day I never hit my W or called her names. I was just sad and angry. But I never felt anger (and sadness) like that in my life.

The OP was lucky to be in another continent. My FWW couldn't believe the hate I was having. It was like I was another person.

Finally, we never really know our SOs. They can cheat and blindside us. I'm assuming some may kill themselves or others and we would never know until it's too late. I bet many of those killed never thought their SO would one day kill them.

In this conversation, I'm interested in neither responsibility nor blame. I'm talking about causation. What factors come together to make certain outcomes more or less likely? Looking at things from that perspective gets us closer to the 'whys' that we talk about so frequently in this forum. Responsibility and blame are useful when you are looking to punish someone but if you want to look at fixing problems, understanding and altering the causation is the practical means of changing outcomes.

We have real problems in these conversations because we are so bad at separating the need to assign blame from the need to identify and fix the things that are broken.

[This message edited by NoGoodUsername at 2:37 PM, January 3rd (Friday)]

I think it's very interesting that this has evolved into a debate about blame/responsibility. It's definitely interesting to think about.

I can't imagine that any WS has entered into an A hoping that it would end up in death,murder,suicide,or wearing diapers while driving cross country.

But the fact is that many of these stories we hear about may not have happened if a WS had not begun a relationship with someone they had no business getting involved with.

We never know how another person is going to react in such a difficult situation...even if it is someone we have been married to for many years.

It's just a very scary thought that one person's actions can cause such tragedies...

We had a high profile case in my neck of the woods about 5 years ago. A guy who was high up in city government caught his wife with another man, shot them both dead, lead police on a high speed chase into a city in another state, before committing suicide in a parking lot once he was surrounded. There was nothing in his background to indicate that he would behave that way. One affair, three dead people. The love triangle turned into a death triangle.

Alyssa makes a good point, these things can go very wrong. As a BS, I can tell you that the pain from discovery was way more intense that I ever could have imagined. Life-altering, earth-shattering. I never wanted to hurt my wife in any way but I did have some fantasies about making the OM's life a living hell.

BTW, I found out not too long ago that he threatened me in an email to my wife. He was jealous, and I suspect that my wife talked a lot of crap about me to justify her bad behavior. It's scary to think that a man I didn't even know existed before D Day could have come after me in a jealous rage, and even feel righteous doing so.

It gives me chills to think of the risks I took.

Never ever ever ever ever again. Ever.

As far as the astronaut. She made me sick and people actually took up for her. I am so glad she lost her job. Never found out if she lost her Navy Retirement, but IMHO she should have lost that too. I was living in FL when that all went down. I don't feel she should be punished for cheating, because her husband dumped her like a bad habit. I think she should be punished for attempting to murder another person. Nut job.

If I heard my FWH say "I'm so sorry. I had no idea she was like this" once, I heard it 1000 times. She did stalk him and remained determined to resume their affair until we sought legal intervention.

It's not fun knowing there's some nut job out there who, almost two years later, blames me for coming between her and her lover boy.

There are some crazy people out there. When you play with people's emotions, you're also playing with fire.

I think it is safe to say that affairs bring out the worst in people. Affairs can result in people acting uncharacteristically (WS, BS, and AP alike).

If everyone thought of the pro's and con's of cheating on their spouse (as opposed to working on, or ending the marriage) there would definitely be less affairs....but that's not the case.

I did things I had never done before when I found out about stbxww's affair, I did put my hands on the AP and that was my choice, a poor one, but my choice none the less.

Affairs are dangerous because people can be dangerous.....

This idea hit me hard the other day.

AP is a little delusional, but hopefully harmless. But, the OBS is a depressive (has been hospitalized), and I worry very often about his safety. Also, they both drink, so I am not sure that I will ever feel terribly secure with them in the area.

My reaction on D-day about my FWW's A brought the most intense pain and emotions that I have ever experienced in my life. While I was extremely upset with her in so many levels, my rage was redirected towards her AP. I felt like I could not take my extreme anger out on her and focused it on the OM. I am quite certain I could have done extreme physical harm to him for several weeks after D-day and conjured up all sorts of ideas for revenge towards him. Fortunately, he lives 2500 miles away but I am not sure what I would have done had he been within driving distance. This sort of thing could easily cause a rational, good person to do the unimaginable.

I think there is a huge part of the picture we need to include. For those of us with children, we have NO idea if we've managed to survive this trauma without serious injury. Infidelity affects our children in horrible ways. And for some, it can take decades to rear it's ugly affects on them. The child may repeat the behavior of their wayward parent, once they start dating, then marry. They may contiplate suicide, fall into depression, or feel neglected growing up and turn to dangerous habits.

In the relationship I was in prior to this one, I was with a cop. He cheated. And the OW, after being dumped, would send the children long hand written letters, clothing, and toys. Most were intercepted, but it didn't matter. Scared the hell out of me. What type of woman did this cop bring into our lives? He thought he was such a great judge of character. Silly me learned later, he just was attracted to women like himself. He put his gun in his mouth one time during a fight, and all I could think was, what if he fired it, the bullet went through him, and into me, or through the wall and hit the children. I left soon after.

What keeps me grounded, is how these men I've been with could have hurt my children. At that point, it makes leaving easy.

I think it's very interesting that this has evolved into a debate about blame/responsibility. It's definitely interesting to think about.

I agree. I think this thread took a turn for the better. The way it started seriously irked me. It came across as made up drama (and I think the need for drama is behind some affairs).

It reminds me of something a friend in high school said to me once:

"Oh my god I was almost pregnant!!!"