SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

There are many members here who feel they have been betrayed by a spouse who indulged in pornography. It is a widely, albeit not universally, identified form of infidelity if the spouses are not in agreement as to its usage. Emotional Affairs are another. Although there is no physical contact, the giving of oneself to another by the Wayward Spouse in any manner is considered a betrayal.

When a WS turns to images of other people for physical stimulation without the consent of their partner, it is considered a sexual betrayal.

The bottom line is that it is not for us to judge who has broken boundaries and vows and who has not. 1bigidiot79 is here because his wife feels betrayed by his behavior and he is trying to do what he can to repair the damage.

Okay, I do not want to create an arguement here. Fair enough, his wife feels betrayed due to his porn use and as a result she's completely cut him off from an physical contact, which seems pretty extreme to me.

My own values are that porn use isn't anything like an PA or EA unless it is replacing the spouse. So as a BS that's my context. I'd dispute it is "widely" accepted as infidelity. (And I do apologize if this triggers anyone.) It would be just as accurate to say porn use, along with excessive drinking in men, is "widely" associated with chronic rejection as well.

The reason I'm asking these questions is that it seems possible to me that she may be the one with the intimacy problem and is using this as an excuse to withdraw from the relationship because it serves some feelings she has. If that is the case, there may be no way for him to regain a real marriage, since she doesn't really want that.

I understand there are strong feelings associated with this topic. I'd just suggest that in the spirit of helping the original poster we separate personal beliefs and facts.

[This message edited by IHeartSuffering at 2:20 PM, February 13th (Thursday)]

That is how a couple really connects.

Perhaps the OP's BS needs to feel an emotional connection before she can translate that into a sexual connection.

As for treating hidden porn use as infidelity, honestly, I change my mind on this depending on the day. I will say that perhaps if my own WH had treated his secret porn use as infidelity on one of the many, many occasions I discovered it I might not have had a DDay.

I can tell you that the times I have been the least attracted to my FWH were after I discovered his use of porn.

Amen to that! The times WH would stay up watching porn and I’d get out of bed to see what he was doing only to discover him viewing porn… total desire KILLER! I didn't always confront, just slunk back to bed and cried. It created the idea that he was watching other women and then coming to bed and having sex with me… but thinking of them. That really does wonders for your self esteem. **insert sarcasm here**

Hidden porn use does evoke similar feelings as infidelity in some women, feelings of being sexual inadequate, body image issues, low self esteem, feelings of being replaced… and many more. I think some men have trouble realising that porn does not make some women horny but in fact has the opposite effect.

I feel the safest way to determine what is or is not “cheating” is to live by the rule…

If you would not display these behaviours with your partner in the room, you probably shouldn't be acting in that manner at all.

[This message edited by Want To Wake Up at 2:28 PM, February 13th (Thursday)]

My own values are that porn use isn't anything like an PA or EA unless it is replacing the spouse.

The only person who is able to weigh the impact of his porn use is his BS. That is for her to define. Just as you get to define your pain within the context of your own relationship, she will define hers.

I think the fact that the OP is taking his wife's issues seriously, without making distinctions about which kind of infidelity is worse, says volumes about how much he values her and his relationship.

I think 1big's willingness to accept his wife's hurt as legitimate and to work on himself will ultimately pay off.

This is a really sore subject for me. I'm afraid I won't be much help, just adding my two cents.

In my case, we did have HB, but it tapered off to every couple if months very quickly. It's now been six months since we've been physical. Mrs LRH doesn't like me to touch her. Much like 1big, I kiss her on the forehead at night and that's pretty much all she will allow. Hugs are occasional. It does contribute to a growing feeling of distance for me. I also know that she feels I'm not doing all I can for R, and that she's still not sure she wants to R and that contributes to how she feels. My only advice is this- make sure that you are doing everything that you need to do to heal yourself and help your BS every way you're able, whether they see the effort or not.

We're coming up on three years post d-day in March.

It may be common for a BS to go through this stage at some point during an attempt at R. I don't know. I know it hurts and I know I feel contaminated when my W pulls away from my touch and that sets off the shame spiral again and the shame makes me unattractive and not of much help to her...and so on, and so on...

Sorry I'm not more help.

It is the lie. It is the deception. It is the secrecy. It is the hidden acts of sexual expression. It is loss of time. It is not knowing what is going on in your own marriage. It is the betrayal.

If you knew porn might be an issue with your wife, yet you engaged in it anyway, there is betrayal. If you had an agreement of no porn, it is a betrayal. If you hid your porn, whatever your reason, you lived a secret life that makes your W question her marriage to you.

I agree, quit pushing her. Back off, be attentive in every other aspect of her life, and show her she matters. It may have been months for you, but time passes differently for BS. Pain and grief changes who we are, and sometimes just breathing is enough.

I think the fact that the OP is taking his wife's issues seriously, without making distinctions about which kind of infidelity is worse, says volumes about how much he values her and his relationship.

Very much, this.

Wearing my BS hat to answer…

Please know that many people share those feelings, just as others do not. I assure you that those feelings have little to do with punishment. For me, and I suspect for others as well, this is about preserving my sense of self.

I have similar feelings. I have a hard time letting my H kiss me. Even though his infidelities were "only" EAs and porn use (that I know of). Why? It's not punishment. When he tries to kiss me, all the different unfavorable comparisons he made between me and other women, and all the times he watched the hot porn stars while rejecting me, come to mind. I feel *unworthy* to kiss him because I don't match his standards. Now, he is treating me much better than he used to and says he won't leave me for someone else - but what I'd love to hear are the ways that I'm enough as a lover. He's never taken back any of the hurtful comparisons. It's hard to feel like a full lover when other women were regarded as more eligible ones to him during our relationship. As far as I know (because he hasn't explicitly contradicted it), the porn stars and OWs and exes are still his physical ideals.

Maybe it would help to ask her if she feels physically self-conscious and feels compared to the porn stars? That can be a real self-esteem crusher. It might help to help her heal that.

***posting as a member***

IHeartSuffering, I totally get and respect your personal outlook on this. It seems to me that you have personal feelings about the OP's BW's response. I would like to encourage you to post to members in the spirit in which they are asking for help.

In 1big's case, he wants reconciliation as well as physical intimacy with his wife. Focusing on how her response has "completely cut him off" and is "extreme" indicates to me that you have been triggered, and I'm sorry for that.

Can we encourage him to find ways to reach out to his BW instead of being upset with her?

[This message edited by Jrazz at 3:40 PM, February 13th (Thursday)]

Very gently - if your BW is still, at 8 months out, holding fast to not wanting an intimate relationship, I have to think you need to re-evaluate what you will accept as a marriage. I'm not judging her, but I am thinking if you aren't happy, you will never be happy.

Didn't she say that she will never feel that way about you again, and never wants to be intimate again? So, is there a point where you believe that? If so, what is your response to her new definition of your marriage?

[This message edited by painfulpast at 4:04 PM, February 13th (Thursday)]

The times WH would stay up watching porn and I’d get out of bed to see what he was doing only to discover him viewing porn… total desire KILLER! I didn't always confront, just slunk back to bed and cried.

I thought I was the only one who did this ^^^^

It is the lie. It is the deception. It is the secrecy. It is the hidden acts of sexual expression. It is loss of time. It is not knowing what is going on in your own marriage. It is the betrayal.

Yes, Yes, and Yes again.

If your BW is anything like me, she's feeling complete and utter doubt for everything. And to open herself up to you like that, to give herself to you in that way...it makes the B feel used. We already believe we aren't what you wanted, so we become numb and dead inside.

I've been the BW to PA, EA, porn, and the BGF to all three also. I see porn just as I see A's. It involves other women, sexually, and he was with them in his mind. It's crushing, and very hard to want to be with him now, knowing I wasn't enough, or all he really wanted.

The only advice I have is...keep trying to talk with her, seek MC, and do everything in your power to prove the thoughts I mentioned, wrong.

I have a question for you. I have gone through your old posts. I had remembered your story but not in great detail. Your reliance on porn began long ago, as a teenager, but you don't discuss if you have slipped into using porn since your DD. At least based on what I have read. Nowhere am i seeing discussion about your journey or struggles regarding this aspect of your betrayal, and I think it warrants questioning.

I feel compelled to ask this question and hope for an honest answer.

Have you used porn since your DD, or have you used any other medium as a substitute in that time? By substitutes I mean any medium not meant to be pornographic but delivering nude or suggestive material.

If you have viewed or given your BS any indication of having viewed pornography or other images as a replacement for pornography, she would, in fact, be set back to the same state of trauma as DD.

I have tried to glean what I could from your old posts, but they don't give much away on how you are personally progressing. I don't think your personal progress should be overlooked.

Wow...where to start. This first...

It is the lie. It is the deception. It is the secrecy. It is the hidden acts of sexual expression. It is loss of time. It is not knowing what is going on in your own marriage. It is the betrayal.

This is unequivocally the main thing my BW is struggling with. Without a doubt.

If you knew porn might be an issue with your wife, yet you engaged in it anyway, there is betrayal. If you had an agreement of no porn, it is a betrayal. If you hid your porn, whatever your reason, you lived a secret life that makes your W question her marriage to you.

This is why I am treating this as infidelity. We both agreed at the onset of our marriage that porn in no uncertain terms was not ok. The fact that I lived a life outside of this agreed is an absolute betrayal on my behalf. I did not shun my BW sexually. My porn use was always in addition to our physical relationship.

I have a question for you. I have gone through your old posts. I had remembered your story but not in great detail. Your reliance on porn began long ago, as a teenager, but you don't discuss if you have slipped into using porn since your DD. At least based on what I have read. Nowhere am i seeing discussion about your journey or struggles regarding this aspect of your betrayal, and I think it warrants questioning.

Things are going good for me in this area. Honestly, my posting has been primarily about my BW because that is what I'm having the most issues resolving. Through IC and much reading and dedication to true change in my life I can say I am doing well with my porn problem. I have not looked once since my Dday. I do have urges but I have dealt with them appropriately. So far so good.

I appreciate all the responses and I tend to lean towards the idea that my BW is not checking out but just really having a hard time trusting and allowing herself to be vulnerable again. Her views on sex are such that it is a special connection between two people who are truly intimate with each other outside of that sexual relationship. Therefore it is causing her to not want to give in and she doesn't want to be hurt again.

Now the million dollar question is how does she move past that if she really believes I'm doing all that I can to make this better for her as she says she believes I am?

Now the million dollar question is how does she move past that if she really believes I'm doing all that I can to make this better for her as she says she believes I am?

After reading through all your posts, I truly think thats a question she should be asking herself, or at least I hope so by now, she also should be discussing this in IC, is she in IC? (I don't recall reading that or not)

Now the million dollar question is how does she move past that if she really believes I'm doing all that I can to make this better for her as she says she believes I am?

This is tricky, because it's really hard for the BS to hear the WS say "How can we work on YOUR issues?" in a way that isn't completely ironic this early out.

The thing is, if she really and truly believes that you're doing everything you can, then she either has to accept that it's up to her to bridge the gap. Would she be open to IC? If you can put this in the context of your desire for her to trust you and feel comfortable with you (rather than make sex the centerpoint) perhaps she will feel more open to talking.

Sorry if I'm sounding nosy or pushy. I hear the sincerity in your posts and I really want to help the two of you meet in a place where you can build back up together.

I also wanted to add..... I am a BS.....

BUT I feel that even after "infidelity" and both parties have agreed to R, I think it takes work on both parts...... I honestly don't feel like you should be afraid to voice your feelings as well, or keep them from her.... like others may have implied here.

Trust me if anyone gets the hard journey of being a BS, I do, I am one. And it sounds like to me you are being extremely understanding and you are trying hard, etc. Which is commendable. I dont think asking her about this would be wrong.....

Take what I am saying with a grain of salt, I am sure there are much more seasoned people on here I just wanted you to see what I think.

Have you ever read the 'Dry Adultery' thread by UncertainOne?

I don't think your BW is punishing you nor do I think she has checked out.

Sex and intimacy are a form of communication between two people. Her lack of desire to be intimate with you in any way, I think, is just her way of communicating that she is deeply hurt by your actions.

The fact she doesn't pull away when you kiss her head or put your arm around her says a lot.

I would say you are doing all the right things in an effort to help yourself and to make your wife feel safe. Is she in IC? She might find it useful in processing her feelings and taking some steps forward to restoring the physical relationship with you.

This might be a very simple thing but have you or she checked into any health issues? Hormonal or female issues? I don't know your ages so it may not apply, I can only say from my sitch that I was very weird and irregular with my time of the month...it eventually ended up with my iron levels basically at nothing. It took some time and investigating and other things but I will tell you that once that got balanced I was feeling much better, if you know what I mean.

But truly though....it was a huge change for me, my body just had no energy to do anything at all. I realize the A and all is first and forefront but both of you working on your physical health is important as well. JMO.

I just wanted to say thank you to all of you for the helpful responses.

As most of you have said, it takes two people to make a successful run at true R. As JRazz and CantLoseHope have said, she has to figure out that there is something within herself holding her back and it's up to her to overcome this. She tells me she is trying and she thinks I just don't see it. I always tell her that I know she is and I am not trying to rush her. I tell her I will be here and that I want to walk with her every step of the way. There is just a gap there somewhere that she's having trouble bridging over. I think it has to do mostly with being vulnerable to me again after I hurt her so much. It's really a commitment issue at this point I think. It's the trust, the feeling vulnerable and being scared of being hurt again all rolled into one I guess.

I know I'm not perfect in my effort at trying to make this right and better for her but if she does believe I'm doing all that I can and she says she's not angry and not punishing me any longer, I think you guys are right that it's just a big hurdle that she somehow on her own has to find the strength to climb over.

She was going to IC but has cut back due to a scheduled surgery she had to have. We have talked about MC so I hope that she will eventually agree to that. Time will tell I guess. Thanks again for helping me to have a better understanding of what she is facing and where she is at right now.

Thank you all.