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Hi Aubrie,

Was he much of a communicator before the A? Were you able to have talks post A? If/when that happened how did you react? Did you become upset during the talks? Did you fight wanting to talk? Did you TT and force him to drag the truth out? Does he have a safe place to be able to say what he has to say without feeling worse off for having said it? What's YOUR reaction when you are frustrated? All of this might have a affect on QS and be a factor in how much he wants to feel vulnerable with you.

what does QS stand for?

When I read this I thought the same thing Moo thought and asked myself why Probable Ice Cream didn't just read your tag line. Then I thought, maybe he means this question in a metaphorical sense rather than the obvious of who is he. Then when I read your response to Sal, something clicked that seems to make sense to me.

he said he knew I was screwed up from day 1. He knew I was broken before I did. Was he looking for a project? Was he thinking I would shape up in a different environment? I have no idea. He said my cheated was not a surprise based on all my previous crappy choices. It was inevitable. There was never an illusion that I was a "catch" or something awesome. He knew going in that I was eyeballs deep in doo doo.

and

Different gentlemen here have PM'd him support. He's not interested. Why, I don't know.

Aubrie, you've posted about his FOO issues before. The things his mother said to him. Demeaning things. Could it be that QS feels that this is who he is? That his lot in life is to be there, strong and quiet. That what he wants does not matter. He is just going to take everything in stride and be there to do what he is supposed to do. Nothing else really matters.

Of course all of that past history and then dealing with the issues that follow because of that history is enough to make anyone crack.

Has he ever seen an IC? Have you two been to MC? One thing I've noticed in your posts is that as you've done more work on yourself, you have a need for QS to work on his own issues. While it is not healthy, maybe QS doesn't want to work on those issues. Maybe he feels better rugsweeping it and if he ignores it, the pain and the issues, etc. will eventually go away. I'm not saying he is deciding this but rather that it is all subconscious.

The result would be that he sometimes explodes. Most of the time maybe he can just stuff it down. I suspect that he says he is telling you what he thinks you want to hear not because he is trying to deceive but because he wants you to be happy and he is doing what he was taught to do his entire life.

And you HAVE made progress. The discussion you had a week or so ago where something bothered him and he told you right then and there. Baby steps. It's going to take a long time for QS to make those steps but every little bit is major progress. One step forward, two back, then two forward, etc.

IDK, Maybe I'm totally off base but it's what came to mind when I read those quotes above.

ETA: The IC/MC question you answered before I hit submit but I'm keeping it in for continuity and emphasize that it really is something I think he should consider. But he needs to consider it under his own volition, not from you or from us.

[This message edited by gahurts at 12:53 PM, February 24th (Monday)]

Hey Aubrie,

I have to wonder if QS really grieved the loss of his M pre A. I can not remember you ever posting about his anger before. Its like he is on a bit of a delay. He has held so much in for 2 years and has watched you become so strong and respected here on SI.

If he has never really dealt with his pain, sadness, anger, resentment it isn't any wonder that he is about to explode.

Wish I had an answer for you...

Thanks for the welcome, Aubrie.

continued to withhold, or told me what he felt I would want to hear, which would make what he says a technical lie. Because he says what he really doesn't feel. So now I feel that if he does talk, I can't really take that at face value because I don't know if it's really his feelings, or what he wants me to hear. kwim?

I know exactly what you mean. My husband and I have struggled with this issue exactly for a very long time. He would tell me what he thought I wanted to hear instead of what was really true, and then build up more and more and more resentment against me. He was so conflict avoidant. And then when I would ask him what was going on with the resentful behavior toward me, he interpreted that as conflict too and it made the situation worse.

I would beg him to tell me what he wanted, what was the matter, what would matter for him to make the marriage better, and he would not be willing to say anything at all. And then he would blame me for "silencing him." It was awful.

I'm sorry you're going through that too.

he said he knew I was screwed up from day 1. He knew I was broken before I did. Was he looking for a project? Was he thinking I would shape up in a different environment? I have no idea. He said my cheated was not a surprise based on all my previous crappy choices. It was inevitable. There was never an illusion that I was a "catch" or something awesome. He knew going in that I was eyeballs deep in doo doo.

Are these his exact words? I mean are you quoting him or is this your perception of the conversation? Is it possible that because he doesn't always say a whole lot that you might be reading too much into what he is saying? That you are filling in the gaps in ways that might suit how you are feeling? I'm not saying that he's an awesome communicator. I'm saying that the dynamic in general could be the problem.

Honestly, I don't think it's just one thing here. I believe that it's a culmination of problems that you are facing. Are you at square one? Not by any means. But I do feel that his anger has been delayed quite a bit. I think that QS might be on an extended healing program. One that might be so slow you don't always see the progress. Which is frustrating because I believe that you have been on the accelerated program (or at least you think you are) so those two don't mesh very well. You are looking at him thinking 'heal damn it! It's been over two years! It's time for some change'. While he may be looking at you thinking to himself 'wow, she really has her shit together. She reads her books, is on the computer, is constantly wanting to talk. Look at her just moving right on forward. Not needing me anymore'.

And if that's the way he feels, any frustration on your part isn't going to be helpful or useful to him. So presentation of your concerns could be construed poorly by him. It can be seen as impatience, intolerance, nagging, and you not accepting of him.

Even though he isn't keen on the idea, I think that MC might do you a world of good. But before you throw your hands up in the air, look back at some of your own posts where you have said you felt you were making progress. Because you have said that. Take an honest look back at all the times you felt things were going well or that he was opening up and see if there was a different approach you may have been using at the time. Please understand that I am not saying that his lack of communication is your fault. I am saying that he may respond better to different styles of communication than what you typically demonstrate.

Because this

I want to fix him so badly. I would die to fix him, to help him, to heal him.

He is not yours to fix. You know this. You know that he needs to fix himself. But if you try to constantly 'fix' him, you are in turn trying to manage him. And that is not safe for him.

You have made huge strides. It's quite possible that QS has made strides you can't see

This^^^^^^

I seem to recall other occasions where QS has been working through things on his own, and surprises with some deep introspection. I wouldn't put it past him to do it again.

I agree with seeing this not so much as a step back, but as a step to the side to regroup and go forward again. Sometimes the mud and snow just gets so deep you can't go any farther, and then you back up and hit it again. You do that a few more times, and you're through.

Regardless, keep working on you and your issues. That's what you get to control. Keep at it

Was he much of a communicator before the A?

He hasn't been a communicator since we got married. Back then, I thought he was "quiet" not non-communicative.

Were you able to have talks post A?

Specifically about the A or in general? Cause we can talk about the weather just fine. Go anything below skin surface, and it's pretty much a no-go. Every blue moon, like last weekend, he may open up with a bit of something, but it's rare. He asked a couple vague questions about the A. He didn't ask for details, nothing.

If/when that happened how did you react?

When he would ask about the A, I would tell him everything I could think of.

Did you become upset during the talks?

I was only upset at the knowledge of his pain and my being the cause of it. I was never upset or defensive about AP.

Did you fight wanting to talk?

No. I would approach him to see if he needed anything.

Did you TT and force him to drag the truth out?

I told him everything when he asked. There was one "minor" detail he learned at about a year and a half out. He shrugged and went on his way.

Does he have a safe place to be able to say what he has to say without feeling worse off for having said it?

With me or elsewhere? With me, yes. I've done everything within my power to provide a safe place and not react because I know he's got deer-in-the-headlights syndrome when he does open his mouth. Elsewhere? There are outlets. He doesn't use them.

What's YOUR reaction when you are frustrated?

When I'm frustrated I talk. Passionately. Tend to ramble. Analyzing from every possible angle. Trying to make sense of it, trying to find the answer. I don't yell, scream, or rage.

The things his mother said to him. Demeaning things. Could it be that QS feels that this is who he is?

Possible. I have no idea. When I do try to talk to him about problems and he spirals, it's usually all tied together in his mind.

Like last night. I was told how mean I was to him, which piggy-backed to a really bad work situation when he was younger, which piggy-backed to school bullying, which piggy-backed on FOO. All of those are isolated incidents. But they get piggy-backed, and he's looking at me like I did it all.

I've asked how he feels about himself. If he does feel that he is what so many people have said he is. He got upset. Said that just because he had a crappy life doesn't mean his sense of worth is in the crapper. He's fine.

I have to wonder if QS really grieved the loss of his M pre A. I can not remember you ever posting about his anger before. Its like he is on a bit of a delay. He has held so much in for 2 years and has watched you become so strong and respected here on SI.

If he has never really dealt with his pain, sadness, anger, resentment it isn't any wonder that he is about to explode.

Again, possible. I have no idea. I get the strong feeling that this is what is going on, but I have no real way of knowing.

He's told me no. He's fine. The A is in the past. It's history. Today is a new day, and all that jazz. But his actions and reactions aren't lining up. I have watched him, tried to talk, listened, followed his signals. Based on everything he's given me (till recently) he was moving along. I wasn't pushing him for healing. I'm not pushing now. I'm just trying to figure out where the crap he is.

I have not brought any of the hurt or frustration in this thread to him. When he melted down last night, I didn't react. I've brought it here. I talked to a trusted friend. I have not reacted negatively other than to say, "I don't know what to do. I need you to tell me what you need from me." And I cried.

Are these his exact words?

Yes. He has said:

He knew I was screwed up from day 1.

He knew I was broken before I did.

He said my cheated was not a surprise based on all my previous crappy choices. It was inevitable.

He knew going in that I was eyeballs deep in doo doo.

But yet, he somehow he saw me as a "catch".

I'm saying there was never an illusion I was a catch because he said everything up there. ^^^

I think what he saw was a potential catch. Not what I actually was. Well crud, that's what he's said. That he knew I was full of potential. Sad. Took 10 years to start to get there. And at a very great cost.

I'm coming at this from my viewpoint. Take it or leave it, up to you. Aubrie, listen, even though you know better you still are fighting like hell to do the impossible - and that is take responsibility for QS's healing. It's oozing out of every one of your replies to your own thread. You have this immense need to bear his burdens, to fix him, to heal him, to make him whole. As if this is even remotely possible. It's not. You know it's not, yet you still place the burden squarely on YOUR shoulders. The burden is HEAVY. You will not EVER stand tall while you carry his burdens.

Then you go on to say you're no catch and all this stuff, STOP. Really, STOP, because tearing yourself down ain't gonna change what's happening NOW. Nor is it helpful in any way. According to the both of you, he walked in eyes wide open and got what he got. He saw your potential so he went for it. At the end of the day, HE made that choice. You didn't force him to do anything. He willingly went. That's on him, not you. Do you owe to yourself & your children to be the best person you can be? Absolutely. That's why we do the work. Does he owe the same? He sure does - he's not exempt. He can just choose to dismiss it, which at present, seems to be the case.

He's not a great communicator - true. NOT.YOUR.FAULT. He's passive aggressive (cue the dinner scenario). NOT.YOUR.ISSUE. At some point, and I say this often, your BH is going to have to make a choice - either live like this, consumed by anger (which is pain, shame, guilt, or fear masked) or do the work. His choice will dictate yours.

Ouch, it must have been really painful to hear him say those things to you.

If your situation is like ours, the fact that you have "issues" and "history" and are up front about them is a very convenient way for your husband to feel like he doesn't have to examine his own stuff. If it's well known and established that you are the messed up one then obviously you are to blame for every problem, especially if you are willing and eager to cop to your part. After all if you already take the blame then he doesn't have to take any.

It is so, so common for men to keep things bottled up and so incredibly hard for them to realize that this has unintended and deeply hurtful consequences, both to themselves and to their loved ones.

Shatteredreality - we are apparently married to the same husband. Bummer. Did you find any sort of workable solution? I keep on drowning over here and I'm the faithful one. Lol.

Aubrie, hugs. You seem like you're trying SO hard.

Aubrie, I just want to let you know that my heart bleeds for you. You have did everything right, just exactly like my fww has done. Twenty five years have passed and I still have my days when the PTSD wins and I am unable to cope. Somehow, my patient wife stays with me but she doesn't understand why I do, or don't do what it is I do. My thoughts are with you and QS. Your posts are of the very best. Keep on being the best person you can be.

MJ, you're right. (dangit you're always right)

It's so.hard. to let go of his issues. Anyone else on the planet and I'm all, "Own your own crap. I'm not taking it!" but I stumble and fall all over myself with him. I'm discovering that that's hurt us both.

I don't want to be "mean" or "make" him be accountable or whatever, especially after what I've done. kwim? I struggle with the concept of "owning" everything, but then turning around and pushing his issues back in his lap.

Shatteredreality, it hurt some. But I know it was true. He wasn't trying to be nasty when he said those things. Just stating facts. It is what it is. I was a hot mess back in the day. Won't deny it at all.

IsthereEVERanend thanks for the vote of confidence, but I assure you I haven't done everything right. I'm not giving up on him. I'm frustrated and confused. But I haven't given up.

Agree with all the sentiments of MJ's post.

To help you put into perspective what you already know...

Do you realize that by you taking on the sole responsibility for QS's healing that you may be sending a unspoken message that you don't think he is capable of doing for himself? (I know, you know, and likely he knows - on an intellectual level. But this whole thing isn't really playing on that field).

Secondly, if the above is true and he is subconsciously in agreement with you (which is really an easy position to take as a BS), then of course he's royally pissed because you aren't doing it - healing him. This is then his angry oozing out sideways because intellect is blinding him to the unspoken dynamics. It's obvious that it just needs some place to attach and that's why it lands on something trivia like a dinner choice.

Making any sense?

Stop enabling. It's bad for both of you. Raise the bar.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 10:02 PM, February 24th (Monday)]

Aubrie, I will ask you one question.

Have you really and truly, 100% completely let go of the outcome or are you hanging on to a thread and want to make it happen?

SlowUptake, I don't know. Kinda?

Look, if he wants out, I'm cool with that. If he wants in, I'm cool with that. Whatever makes him happy, I'm cool with.

I think I let go of every outcome but the one where he stays but doesn't heal. That thought never occurred to me. As ridiculous as that may be. I guess I believed the illusion that I would do everything in my power, he would do his own healing, I would do my own, and life goes on. I didn't expect/anticipate a possible "there is nothing wrong with me, I'm fine, I'm not going to budge" situation.

So I guess I let go of 90%? The 10% is killing me.

[This message edited by Aubrie at 9:11 AM, February 25th (Tuesday)]

He's passive aggressive (cue the dinner scenario).

MissesJai, I think this is a key factor. passive aggressive is insidious and damaging. It erodes the spouses confidence and forces them to second guess everything they do. I grew up in a very shaming environment and used passive aggressiveness to feel a little more in control. I carried it into my adult life and M. I undermined my BW and made her feel less than for years. I would never let on that anything ever bothered me, I was fine. Whenever my BW would ask or push to know what I was thinking or feeling I would shut down. But I would always make snide digs when things weren't going right and blame my BW when things went wrong. I used the passive aggressiveness to force my BW to make all the decisions because I was indecisive. I also used it to push her buttons and force her anger because I was a conflict avoider who couldn't express anger.

After D'Day I saw the anger, hurt, pain and betrayal in my BW's face and I realized I had to make some serious behavioral changes in myself. I have been working on my passive aggressiveness and am dumping the sarcasm and negativity as best as I can from my life and feel better for doing it. I can't say the changes happen immediately but it was a gradual change, like shedding a sickness. It takes time.

Pick a subject. It's the same theme throughout. He "sacrifices" for everyone, then ends up angry/resentful/sad because it wasn't what he wanted in the first place. Then speak up! What. Do. You. Want?

Aubrie, I can relate to what you are saying because I have done this many many times. A good book on the subject is "Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man: Coping with hidden Aggression - From the Bedroom to the Boardroom".

Since a lot of passive aggressive behavior is tied to childhood, FOO and shame, some other books of interest are "Healing the Shame that Bids You" and "Shame and Guilt". While these are more for QS and your not supposed to "fix" him, it may give you more insight into this type of behavior.

Everything you said lostmylight feels familiar.

You know I have never seen QS angry. Ever. Not once. Frustrated, kind of heated, annoyed. But I have never, ever seen him cut loose with anger. I've heard people say, "Oh you know, some people just don't get angry." I have always called B.S. on that one, but who am I? Who on this planet can legitimately say they have never been angry? At something, somewhere, somehow.

I think I have the Shame that Binds you book. Will check into the others.

Dear Gawd, by the time this is all over with, I should have a degree or some pretty frame to hang on my wall.

I don't have any advice for the healing. I can just offer (((((hugs))))) for you, because I am sure it hurt to hear and see everything.

But, can I offer a baby step on the passive aggressiveness? My H used to be really terrible about it. Until I started making decisions multiple choice.

Oh, you want to know where I want to go for dinner...Well, I'm feeling either Mexican or Chinese, I narrowed it down, it's your pick. (this also then prevents him from picking something that's your favorite to make you happy, kwim?)

You don't care where we go on vacation? I'm definitely feeling a beach in my future. You decide which one.

You don't care what we do this weekend? I really don't want the movies again. Pick something active.

I think for my H, he had to basically parent his mother, and heaven forbid he did anything wrong, or there would be hell to pay. So, he couldn't make decisions. He would say all he wanted was to make me happy. By narrowing things down like that, he was doing "what i wanted" but still making the choice. And, when he saw I wasn't going to freak out or anything, he started to gain the confidence to make the choices without me narrowing it down.

You know I have never seen QS angry. Ever. Not once. Frustrated, kind of heated, annoyed. But I have never, ever seen him cut loose with anger. I've heard people say, "Oh you know, some people just don't get angry." I have always called B.S. on that one, but who am I? Who on this planet can legitimately say they have never been angry? At something, somewhere, somehow

Wow...does this sound familiar, my H is the same way. How does somebody not get angry? Ever? I get angry because he says he never gets angry. And, I think it's B.S. too. So, I guess there are 2 people on the planet who can say it? Supposedly.

^^^My fiance RARELY gets angry. He gets upset, sad, down, annoyed, but anger? The only time I saw anger was when he was drunk out of his mind--then he brought up every.little.thing. I had done to piss him off in 6 months.

I get angry, frequently. I am happy, frequently. I just let my emotions hang out, what you see is what you get with me. It's how I was raised. You feel angry? let it out! You're sad? Cry!

Now my fiance's family----ho ho ho there's the happy face FOR ALL THINGS. His mother has never raised her voice. His father has never yelled. My F has never, ever seen or heard his parents argue (until his father's A came to light--but even that was his mother saying "end it now." and that was it).

My F is TERRIFIED to let his emotions out. He has grown up believing that you don't show that stuff. You keep it buried. NO ONE needs to know what you're thinking/feeling.

He's much better about telling me when something bothers him now. He doesn't drink anymore, either, so he's really learning to allow himself to feel his emotions when he's having them.

QS sounds like he's locked inside himself, and he can't get out. Or maybe a better way to say it would be that he WAS locked inside himself. The door is open now, but he's afraid to go through it. Once he opens those floodgates, there's no going back.

I think there is a deep fear of being himself, putting himself first, acknowledging his needs. Like if he does, the QS who has been there all these years will melt away. He doesn't know who will be left there.

I hope that made sense.