SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It's not hard or complicated. You are making excuses for his behavior.

If she is not his girlfriend, why are you not allowed at the house when "roommate" is there? You know nothing other than what he has said. His actions show he is hiding you. He is worried about keeping the peace with her, not making you comfortable and safe. She's the priority.

I would give him ultimatum, introduce you to roommate or you're done. The longer this goes on, the more hurt you will be.

Also not everyone has ton of baggage and thinks the worse. But his actions are clear no matter what spin you try to put on it.

Forget him. Let's focus on you.

How do you feel about this relationship? How do you feel that you can never visit him at his home? How do you feel that you are a secret from the girl he is living with?

I don't like this at all. However, I am not going to let his dysfunctional relationship with his EX have any bearing on how I view myself or how much this affects my self-esteem. It's not about me. My feelings are concern about what it says about HIM.

Whether or not he is in a relationship, he is not living an honest and authentic life. He is evidently okay with that. Are you?

And this is what I'm really not OK with - at least not OK with in someone I would view as a potential long-term commited partner. Just, NO. Not OK.

We talked last night for over an hour and spent quite a while going over the issue of him leaving his truck at work and the EX GF and non-disclosure of our relationship to her.

He is sticking with the story that she is psycho. Apparently, she is big on drama.

He also reminded me that they have an agreement that they set when they ended their romantic relationship, where they both agreed that neither of them would bring a date home so that the house would remain drama-free. It was an easy agrement for him to make at the time because he wasn't planning on dating.

He is worried that because she owns 60% of the house she could kick him out.

I told him straight up: I am worried about what it says about him that he is not living authentically. Taking the truck to work is fabricating an alternate reality to present to her. I don't support it. If he's basically living in an emotionally abusive environment, and he's allowing his EX GF to have that much power over his life, I'm not OK with that either.

He said he heard me and is listening and thinking about it. And he hopes they can put the house on the market now.

And back to focusing on me. I am trying to parse all of this out, not because I'm desperate to turn this F-buddy relationship into a committed relationship, but because I don't want to be an OW. I need to be able to look in the mirror and know that I'm not contributing to another woman's pain and suffering by agreeing to be an AP.

AND WE ALL KNOW THAT CRAZY PEOPLE EXIST and good people end up in relationships with them, and it can be incredibly hard to break free. Haven't I read enough here about crazy? I don't buy the argument that because this is a story straight out of the cheater's handbook that it is necessarily by definition a cheater's story. It could be true that she's crazy.

If they broke up 3 years ago, and he agreed not to bring home anyone he might date so they could continue to co-habit in relative peace, then his shielding her from me is consistent with his agreement with her. And if he's dating me it's none of her business. If it's true they are not a couple anymore, I'm not an OW, he is not having an affair, and If I go and knock on her door and tell her we are dating, I'm just forcing my way into her (allegedly crazy) world and introducing drama he is trying to avoid, and I think it would be very disrespectful, to be honest.

I think the only way I can know the truth about the status of their relationship is if he voluntarily discloses to her that he has a new romantic relationship with me, and lets the crazy happen.

Frankly, I do think that living with integrity is worth a little short term drama. And I do think he SHOULD disclose me to her, even if he intends to continue to honor his agreement with her to not bring me around. And he shouldn't be such a coward of her crazy psycho reaction.

Right now our relationship is just good friends and F-buddies I can keep living with the status quo as long as I know I'm not an OW. We are friends and confidants. There is an emotional component that feels good. It's not a shallow relationship. It has benefits. It's fun. We both enjoy it. If nobody is being harmed, what's the problem?

I just want to make sure nobody is getting hurt by MY actions here. That includes the alleged psycho-crazy EXGF, Firehouse Guy, and me.

Do you think...

1.that this house will sell

2.his divorce will go through

3.psycho ex will ride off into the sunset never to be heard from again

4.firehouse guy will be happy to be a real couple with you and introduce you to everyone while holding your hand and calling you his girlfriend

Do you think all 4 of these conditions will be met? I see no reason to think any of this will happen.

Look at the facts, just the facts. They haven't sold this house in how long? The truth is, it may never be worth what he paid for it. There are tons of people who sell at a loss either to move for a job or bc of divorce or to get the kids into a different school district etc. Ultimately taking a loss on a house is not a huge deal if you've lived in it for years.

How is she psycho? Has he told you any examples? Bc if she is in any way physically threatening or harmful then WHY are you fucking with this situation? If you truly believe she is psycho, and obsessed with your man, and he does nothing to change the situation for years, why would you even think about it?

So he has to stay married for financial reasons... (health insurance)... has to live with his exgf for financial reasons (housing)... how old is this man? This does not make logical sense. If you understand the importance of marriage you also understand the importance of divorce. They are both more than just a piece of paper.

And back to focusing on me. I am trying to parse all of this out, not because I'm desperate to turn this F-buddy relationship into a committed relationship, but because I don't want to be an OW. I need to be able to look in the mirror and know that I'm not contributing to another woman's pain and suffering by agreeing to be an AP.

This won't go over well but I can't believe that in all this mess you can even care about that. So you are ok with being a fuck buddy, don't care about a committed relationship, but just really want to be sure you are not an OW... for the emotional health of a woman who you claim has no emotional health. If this were me that would be very far down on my list bc in my world I have to take care of myself or nobody else will, and dating a guy who hides me like a dirty little secret is not good self care.

As far as if you are the OW? The only way to *know* is to talk to her yourself, which you said you won't do, so I guess just stop worrying about it. You've collected many opinions off here and then proceeded to say that everyone in NB has "baggage," which I guess means you didn't get the green light you want, so nobody here knows what they're talking about.

And what's up with the "separate wings"? Do they live in a castle?

^^^

I'm sorry to laugh but that's funny! I completely agree....this guy is feeding you tons of rope to emotionally hang yourself with and you need to yank back and knock him on his ass. RUN do NOT walk to the nearest EXIT!!!!! Seriously!!!! Liar Liar pants on FIREMAN! (are you sure this isn't my ex-husband and the roommate IS his mom?? - Sounds totally like him....and yes...he was a fireman....)

Has it ocurred to you that he has complete control over the truth you know? How exactly are you going to know if anyone is getting hurt by you being his fuck buddy? You can't live with knowing that but how do you plan to find out? By asking him? It's nice to pay lip service to not wanting to hurt his girlfriend, but if you're just taking his word for it aren't you kind of avoiding the truth possibly?

How about asking some other people. Has he introduced you to any of his friends? If not I would wonder why. I know when I had the bad experience of dating someone who I didn't know was seeing someone else, he kept me very far from his friends. It eventually dawned on me that he was controlling information, and me in the process. If you've read about all the crazy people on this board then you must surely have read that there are ways to trust but verify. You seem like a smart enough person to figure it out if you really do want answers.

my world I have to take care of myself or nobody else will, and dating a guy who hides me like a dirty little secret is not good self care.

Thanks for that. It's a good point. No, I don't like it.

Has it ocurred to you that he has complete control over the truth you know? How exactly are you going to know if anyone is getting hurt by you being his fuck buddy? You can't live with knowing that but how do you plan to find out? By asking him? It's nice to pay lip service to not wanting to hurt his girlfriend, but if you're just taking his word for it aren't you kind of avoiding the truth possibly?

It eventually dawned on me that he was controlling information, and me in the process. If you've read about all the crazy people on this board then you must surely have read that there are ways to trust but verify. You seem like a smart enough person to figure it out if you really do want answers.

Yes, I suppose I can't rely only on information I get from him. And that is why I'm bothered enough to start this thread and take the 2x4's. Thanks for the responses everyone!

And Shelly, yes, it's a huge house.

I know this isn't the be all, end all, but how about facebook?

Is he on it? Are you "friends"? Is it a full page with pictures and info, and 20+ friends and family?

I know a lot of people "don't do facebook" but even the people who are rarely on it and never post have a page they are willing to share.

I know this isn't the be all, end all, but how about facebook?

Is he on it? Are you "friends"? Is it a full page with pictures and info, and 20+ friends and family?

I know a lot of people "don't do facebook" but even the people who are rarely on it and never post have a page they are willing to share.

I use facebook daily. We are friends on FB and have been for a long while.

He visits FB about once a month and posts a couple times a year. His friend list is mostly family and colleagues. His parents were immigrants and he spent a lot of his youth in their native hometown, and he uses FB to keep in touch with this extended family and hometown.

His EXGF is not in his friends list and I can't find her on FB at all. No pictures of her with him on his page.

I have searched her employer's page (she's a college instructor) and found her contact info. She has been horribly rated by her students - not one good rating. Lots of complaints.

And that is why I'm bothered enough to start this thread and take the 2x4's

Trust YOUR gut. It is screaming at you.

I feel like I'm jumping on the dogpile, but I have to mention that the fact you can't find her on FB doesn't mean she isn't there. He could have her password and have you blocked so that neither sees the other

or

she could know about you, could be listening to his bull about YOUR being a psycho and have you blocked.

I witnessed him take calls from her in the evening to discuss domestic issues like shopping.

They are still together. Roommates who live separate lives do not call each other at work to talk about shopping. Apparently the "wings" are not that separate.

He didn't close with sweet talk, just said, OK, I'll see you later.

That means nothing. I know many couples that do not sweet talk on the phone.

I would not touch that with a 10 foot pole.

He is sticking with the story that she is psycho. Apparently, she is big on drama.

I have very few dating rules, but one is that I don't date men who refer to past wives, GFs etc. as "crazy" "drama queens" and so on. I've had this rule my entire life, loooooong before xWH was on the scene. My reason for the rule is this: invariably if someone refers to their ex this way, it's saying a lot about the speaker and nothing about the ex. The speaker is telling you the ex did something reasonable within the context of an exclusive relationship (like ask them to stop fucking OPs or be home for dinner or stop borrowing money and never paying it back ...) and "they didn't wanna" foot stomp foot stomp. (Re: when it's a man who says it, there's a subset of men who say this misogynistically too, but that's *just* a subset, most who say it mean they didn't want to be controlled).

If an ex is truly mentally ill. People say it. If someone's ex was a cheater (e.g. of the sociopathic NPD and so on variety) people say it. If they fall back on the "psycho" "loves drama" explanation, it means they thought the ex was trying to control them and they wanted none of it.

And what do we have here? A controlling guy who is holding you at arms length when it comes to aspects of his personal life. Who knows if all the alarmist thoughts posters are expressing here are true. We BS's are all a little trigger happy with the accusations sometimes when asked about an NB relationship that leaves someone feeling badly. I myself questioned you about this guy's relationship with his housemate the first time you posted about this situation.

But I think you're posting because you might want more. Be honest with yourself about that and make sure this guy doesn't some day wind up referring to you as "the crazy ex" all because you want to have dinner with him at 6pm on occasion.

Trust YOUR gut. It is screaming at you.

Actually, my gut is not screaming at me about HIM in a danger, danger kind of way. My gut says he's not lying to me. My gut says that he is safe for me in the limited role he is in. My gut says he is not a player. My gut says he's got entanglement issues and is having a hard time breaking free from decades of dysfunctional relationships with women who have played long-term roles in his life. My gut says he is immature and insecure deep inside while having a gentle, kind, and caring exterior. My gut says he's a coward living with a psycho EXGF who has him scared.

My head is what is triggering here. I'm trying to analyze all the info I have about this guy and make it make sense. My head wants to paint him with the wayward label given what I know about my own STBWHPANPDFTG and waywards in general, but my gut is telling me to give him the benefit of the doubt. My head is going whoa, whoa, whoa, and thinks my gut is probably wrong. I have been forcing myself to have these hard conversations with Firehouse Guy.

Where my gut is screaming is that I'm co-dependent, and I'm conditioned to accept passivity in a relationship. I'm a don't-rock-the-boat type, just get along, be easy to get along with, take care of the "poor wittle man" ultra dedicated, super committed, thick and thin, type of door mat.

In my head I'm wanting to have a healthy NB and to create a new me and a new life. And here I am attempting a no-strings-attached relationship which I've never done before. I'm feeling unsettled in part because I have no experience with this type of relationship and every other significant relationship I've had, has had "future plans together" be a central focus. I'm a all-in, type of person. I think my gut REALLY wants that old familiar commitment. So since i'm really very attracted to a lot of Firehouse Guy's good qualities, my gut is trying to paint him into my future and in my head I'm not sure it should.

I've been working very hard in therapy to change some really fucked up ways of thinking and doing and being in life. Just because my gut says it's OK doesn't mean it is. I'm posting here because I want to be challenged. I want to do the next phase of my life right.

cayc, for the record he has not used the words psycho or crazy to describe her. That's my paraphrasing.

In his words "she is the most negative person I know" "she pushes my buttons" "she criticizes everything I do" "everything I do is wrong" "she will go ballistic" "who knows what she will do" "she is extremely private" "she is really paranoid about that" "I just don't tell her anything anymore" "she could make my life hell" "I've tried talking to her about the house and she starts screaming" "I just keep my head down" "I try not to engage her"

So the picture he has painted is of a very unstable controlling shrew.

She teaches at a public college. The reviews of her by students are nasty, particularly around the time Firehouse Guy says they broke up. The students state she is disorganized, arbitrary, unhelpful, misses school deadlines, and failed 3/4 of the students in one of her classes.

There is no picture of her on the college website. Her LinkedIn profile has no picture, and just her current position briefly stated. Googling her name yields almost nothing other than some stuff related to the college. She has a small side business and the website doesn't have her name and the only way to contact her is through a web form, calling, or an "info@" email address. Logging out of facebook doesn't find her. It's pretty clear she is a very private person with no active public life on the internet.

About the house, he says "I'm really stuck" and "I can't walk away from my life's savings"

Also, the chief of the govt. office where Firehouse Guy and I were working together mocked her when I was chatting about his promotion and clearing out his personal stuff. We talked about about him taking some unique personal things home that he'd kept at the office. The chief said "I don't know how well that's going to go over when he takes that home." I asked why, and the response was, "Have you met [her name]? She is "toxic"!" And I said I'd heard they had their issues and what was the deal with their relationship, are they a still a couple? And the response was "I dunno, it's very weird and dysfunctional, who knows why they still have that house together"

Anyway I hate gossiping about others or encouraging other people to gossip so I didn't pry further. I guess I missed an opportunity there.

If you are co-dependent, you will make any excuse for his bad behavior and just continue being mistreated.

Lots of SI gave you good advice and explicitly pointed out his bad behavior (which you've dismissed with more excuses).

I think the best approach then is to figure out how to navigate this relationship as-is. If you want a f-buddie then you shouldn't care what his private life entails. If you want a boyfriend you can trust you need to look elsewhere. or just stay & realize its as good as it will get BUT stop the excuses. If he has bad behavior, stop there. Don't make an excuse (e.g., financial, fear, work, childhood, illness whatever). Just look at the bad behavior and how you react to it. It's your reaction you will need to change. His behavior will not. If his hiding you bothers you, you need to figure out a way not to care about it. If he parks his truck at work you need to ignore so you can enjoy your time together. If he calls her to make grocery/dinner plans start flipping through your phone and don't listen.

Who are you trying to convince?

Right now our relationship is just good friends and F-buddies I can keep living with the status quo as long as I know I'm not an OW. We are friends and confidants. There is an emotional component that feels good. It's not a shallow relationship. It has benefits. It's fun. We both enjoy it. If nobody is being harmed, what's the problem?

Fine. Great. If that ^^^ is true, then there's nothing left to talk about. There is no way to determine for certain that you are or are not the "other woman" and even if you are, why ruminate on it? He won't leave her anyway, he's been with her for years, and you've already said you don't want to be with him long term.

but my gut is telling me to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I've always thought it's an interesting expression. The benefit of the DOUBT. Hmmmm. Basically this is saying, I'm going to allow for the 1% chance that this might be true despite appearances to the contrary. Personally I don't do benefit of the doubt.

You talked with him for like an hour about having an authentic life or whatever... what about you? If this is just basically adult fun time, why are you googling this other lady, asking a coworker about her, grilling him about her, why? Please don't say it's bc you don't want to be the OW. If that were true you would never have started tiptoeing around this lady's home when she isn't there. As things stand, if you are truly pained at the thought of being the OW, just break up with him.

If you really just want a hookup buddy surely you can do better. I'm sure there are men in your area who live alone. Hell an actual married man would probably be less drama than this guy. Maybe have enough class to get a frikin hotel room.

My gut says he's got entanglement issues and is having a hard time breaking free from decades of dysfunctional relationships with women who have played long-term roles in his life. My gut says he is immature and insecure deep inside while having a gentle, kind, and caring exterior. My gut says he's a coward living with a psycho EXGF who has him scared.

Even if this were true, that's only more reason to step away from him. You are not Florence Nightingale.

And fyi that is such typical OW think, he's just always been treated bad, all he needs is the right woman (me) who isn't too demanding and doesn't have pesky emotional needs.

Is your therapist a man or a woman?

In his words "she is the most negative person I know" "she pushes my buttons" "she criticizes everything I do" "everything I do is wrong" "she will go ballistic" "who knows what she will do" "she is extremely private" "she is really paranoid about that" "I just don't tell her anything anymore" "she could make my life hell" "I've tried talking to her about the house and she starts screaming" "I just keep my head down" "I try not to engage her"

Hate to say it but BIG RED FLAGS. This guy is telling you everything that a WS tells an AP about a BS and you have no way of confirming other than his word.

Someone once told me that "You only ask for advice when you already know the answer. You are just looking to confirm your answer." That is what I feel is happening here. You already know your answer, you are looking to see if anyone else sees what you are seeing. Get out of this, he could have easily moved her things to another room and locked it up so you wouldn't see them when you came over. They may actually be living in separate areas and trying to work out their relationship problems. I know I stayed in another room for awhile but no matter what my xWH told the world, I was still very much under the impression that WE were working on our marriage. This whole thing has ROTTEN stamped all over it.

[This message edited by IrishLass518 at 12:02 AM, May 22nd (Thursday)]

Actually, my gut is not screaming at me about HIM in a danger, danger kind of way. My gut says he's not lying to me. My gut says that he is safe for me in the limited role he is in. My gut says he is not a player. My gut says he's got entanglement issues and is having a hard time breaking free from decades of dysfunctional relationships with women who have played long-term roles in his life. My gut says he is immature and insecure deep inside while having a gentle, kind, and caring exterior. My gut says he's a coward living with a psycho EXGF who has him scared.

So HE'S the victim here? And you're going to be "the one" to save him from all these horrible women and terrible relationships?

FACT:

Guy is married to someone else while living with another woman AND at the same time sleeping with you.

He has a list a mile long why he is doing these things. All of these "excuses" paint a "poor me" picture.

Question:

Where is his child that he so heroically kept on his insurance? And does he see this child on a regular basis?