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I get this thought pattern, All my learnt coping was based on CSA and other FOO issues. And still its like, who cares. Cause there lots same life that haven't .

So does that mean I'm bad or is there real truth that I didn't know better. I don't know.

I know I don't want it to be an excuse however that means I did it purposefully and knowingly. If that makes sense. I know I chose, Just didn't understand the pushing force is how I see it today.

The shame of what have done, especially, since *I should have known better* leads me often to see myself as bad.

Those should have, would haves and could haves will all make it the worse . I try and change the thought process to might have been better.

My IC has ask that I take each of my bad coping skills and see what the positive was for it. What was my *inner child* trying to do.

Most of it in a really messed way was to keep me safe. Strang but true.

The fact is whether people want to admit it or not our past does control our reactions, or lack of reactions.

My question to you, is there anyone telling you that you should have known better, because I know society believes it My husband is a big believer, he thinks its all crap.

If its yourself, know, if there wasn't some truth to our childhood controlling or dictating our choices in teenage and adult years, there would be nothing to talk about.

You are not a predator in the evil set out to destroy people sense. unless your psychopath , which I do not believe you are. Most people do not even having affairs say, I am going to purposely mindfully destroy the ones we love.

Has everyone at some time used a person to meet their personal needs yes.

That sad or not is human, sounds horrible in print, but it is truth. But that does not make you a demon or bad.

Aubrie

you are an inspiration, .

Aubrie

you are an inspi

ration

This x 1,000,000 and then some.

Hi Aubrie,

I read your post earlier today and it resonated with me greatly. First, I am sorry that you are feeling confused and conflicted. Please know that you are not alone in those feelings. You wanted what you wanted and you obtained what you wanted without regard to anything else. Does that make you a victim? No. Does that make you a predator? Not at all. It speaks to some unhealthy interpretation of love, relationships, and the many things one learns growing up.

I am not saying that your childhood or upbringing is responsible for the things that you have done. In fact, the opposite is true. You are accepting responsibility by acknowledging that your own actions might have harmed other people. You have to forgive yourself and I know that is difficult, because I can't take my own advice.

I know a lot of the things that I did in my teenage years were wrong, immoral, and criminal. I've hurt a lot of people. I medicated myself with anything and everything to deal with my fundamental core issues with abandonment, my mother, and the physical and sexual abuse. Hell, the same things can be said about the things that I have been doing well into adulthood.

Guilt and shame are all natural. It means that you aren't remorseless and psychopathic.

TG, you ninja'd your way in. Dunno how you did it. But thanks.

Thanks everyone for understanding. I hate that you have experienced things so you can relate, but it helps somehow knowing I'm not alone or crazy.

I have some things to think about. And I need to write. Purge. Rearrange. All that jazz.

Ok. Just going to post this here since this thread is already going. Dunno.

Last night. Family watching a movie, playing with toys, talking, general chaos. QS had a wardrobe malfunction (The kids did not see, thank God!) and a memory hit me.

I was about 8 or 9. We had a young man about 15 stay with us a week or two. I think he was helping my parents with projects. One afternoon he and I were laying on our backs, on the bed, and he was reading a story to me. He did different voices for all the characters. My mother was in the very next room cleaning. The bed was made. Nothing weird or "off". I remember seeing slight movement. Looked down. Pinkish, redish skin. Throbbing, pulsing. I cant remember if his fly had been undone or if it was the top of his jeans. It fascinated me. But I also felt ashamed and dirty. He never skipped a beat. The story continued but I'd stopped listening. There was something weird and not normal happening.

When he finished the story we decided to go outside and ride bikes or something. When we went into the garage to get the bikes, I mumbled, "Check your pants." or something similar, then turned and walked away. I felt so awkward and embarrassed. I remember him saying, "Oh gosh. I'm really sorry." That's it.

The memory hit me last night. Followed by the realization. He was laying in bed with an 8/9 year old and was aroused. I feel sick. But I also know some of his story. His dad was a war vet and had severe PTSD. He's one of the guys that went to Vietnam and "never came back". I heard stories about him. Saw some of his behavior. He scared me. So I know the boy's home life wasn't so swell. He was 15. Errbody knows hormones are all over the place and raging. Sometimes they cant help it. Throw in a religious view that intimacy is "bad" and/or "forbidden". I can see how being on a bed with a girl would "do it".

I guess I don't really know what to do with this. It feels gross. I feel uneasy. I still vividly see his junk. I can smell the garage. But it is something that happened 20 years ago. I cant change it. So, what's the point? If I am a different person today, does it really matter what happened? If I'm not defined by my past, why think any further on it?

Really sorry guys. I'm a mess. I cant seem to find the middle of the road. Is there one? Or do we just swerve all over the place and pray the guardrails keep us from falling off the cliff?

[This message edited by Aubrie at 9:23 AM, June 6th (Friday)]

Hi Aubrie

He was laying in bed with an 8/9 year old and was aroused

What I seem to remember at that age erections came, aroused or not. I just had to be awake and breathing. On second thoughts they happened in my sleep as well.

As far as the traumatic flashbacks go, speaking for myself, I get them at times also. They can be triggered by the weirdest things. It's usually something that was traumatic at the time but now wouldn't be as an adult.

I find if I dissect the event, feel it and process it, it loses it's effect and I move on.

Don't know if that's 'normal' or not.

ETA: Sometimes we recovering selfish, entitled assholes second guess ourselves a little too much and end up agonising over something a 'normal' person wouldn't give a tinker's cuss about. In other words, stop and smell the roses every so often.

Oh and <fist bump> to you, for just being you.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 10:33 AM, June 6th (Friday)]

I feel a bit ridiculous trying to offer you advice, I'm so far from being even half of aware or insightful as you, but your baby sitter story reminded me of a saying I love -

"You can't help a bird from flying over your head, but you can keep it from building a nest in your hair"

Thoughts come whether we like them or not, whether they mean something significant or not. But it's within our control if we dwell on them. If it's important to you to "unpack" this memory and resolve it, then you should. If this was your first introduction to male parts, and it felt shameful and wrong then maybe there is something left unresolved there. But sometimes it also makes sense to have a negative thought and think "ick!" or that "that sucked" and then let the bird fly away.

What I seem to remember at that age erections came, aroused or not. I just had to be awake and breathing. On second thoughts they happened in my sleep as well.

QS said the same thing this morning.

I dunno. I don't think abuse or everything surrounding it is "cool". People have said there was a time era when CSA was considered hip. Everyone had a story. Some true. Mostly fantasy. I'm not looking for that. I'm not asking for a card to The Club. I'm not trying to deliberately make "something" out of nothing. I'm trying to think but not overthink. And I don't know if I'm succeeding or failing.

I feel icky about several things that have happened. Like the picture when I was 3. Like the bed thing. But then my mind also goes I to overdrive trying to find all the reasons "why" something like would happen. Is there a chance his mind "went there"? I have idea. But I also know the human body and the sometimes lack of control. So if its normal body function, why feel gross?

And again. Does any of it matter? Partly, yes. Otherwise I wouldn't feel gross right?But then, am I just really raw so I'm more sensitive? Why do things keep knocking on the door? I hate my brain sometimes. I hate not knowing. Not understanding. Having questions. Hate hate hate it.

So if its normal body function, why feel gross?

I can only guess, but

(The kids did not see, thank God!)

^^^^^^^^Is this a clue.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I am not critising here, just an observation.

In my neck of woods and culture, broadly speaking a wardrobe malfunction would be no big deal. It would illicit a "Eeeew, Dad put it away!", there would be an apology and everybody would move on, no harm, no foul.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 10:55 AM, June 6th (Friday)]

Aubrie,

You are no monster. You are no predator.

You were desperately trying to find out if you were loveable, or even worthy of "love" (at 15, 16 we have no idea what love really is), because you were DENIED AFFECTION from your FATHER. The ONE man in this life that is supposed to love and cherish you, unconditionally.

Having that taken away from you absolutely would send a person, ANY PERSON, into a complete head fucking tailspin.

"What's wrong with me?"

"Why doesn't daddy love me?"

"If daddy doesn't love me, how can anyone else?"

Those are questions I have asked myself many, many, many times. My father emotionally and physically abandoned us after my parents' divorce. And my mother....well she prefers my brother to me, and makes it very obvious.

So, I, too, sought affection. I, too, equated certain actions with getting affection.

I didn't seek out older men, I was afraid of that (as a teen). I knew that I could "tease" boys my own age, and get validation/affection/attention from them. I also knew that trying that with an older man could be dangerous for me--and could lead to a situation I would not be able to get out of.

A lot of my behaviors were me acting out. I felt no love for myself at all. I hated the face in the mirror.

I hated her so much. I told her often how ugly, fat, unlovable she was.

I had a reputation in high school for being 'slutty enough' without going all the way. I didn't lack for male attention and,I told my reflection often that she was a slut, and didn't deserve a real chance at a relationship with anyone. And when I DID have a relationship at 17...he cheated on me when I was 19 and planning our wedding. He married the OW. That sent me right back into the "not worthy of love" place, and REINFORCED that I was worthless. Replaceable.

I carried that through my mid 20s. I had strings of "relationships" with men who used me. I was the Queen of the 2 am booty call. Not good enough to take to dinner, but good enough to fuck after the bars closed. It temoporarily filled the hole inside me, temporarily made me feel wanted, loved, needed. But it never lasted.

I can't remember the day I let it go. I never actually spoke any words of forgiveness to myself, but one day I looked in the mirror and I didn't hate who I saw.

I felt sorry for her. I felt so so sorry for her. I cried for her, and for who she could have been.

sometimes I look back on my past and wish I had done things differently.

I wish I'd had someone who would have held me and told me I was worth something, without me having to "pay for it" in some way.

I did have therapy. Lots of it. I'm sure it's part of why I could let things go, and learn to love myself.

And I do. I love myself. I think I'm funny, smart, pretty, and worth the respect of other people. And worthy of the love of a select few.

It's hard to get there, though. Because you have so many years of knowing without a doubt that you're a worthless POS that doesn't deserve shit. And you hear that VOICE. The voice that says you're not good enough, you're not smart, you don't deserve any good or nice things....and that voice is very hard to shut up.

My therapist had me make a list of everything that was "wrong" with me. And a list of everything that was "right" with me. My list of wrong was two pages long, front and back. My list of right---one sentence. At first.

I had to look at those lists every day, and each day try to write something on the "right" list, and try to cross out something on the "wrong" list.

And then I had to make myself BELIEVE it.

It was a long road.

I think I'm pretty healthy (emotionally) now, but I'm a work in progress.

And so are you, Aubrie. Your story is not over yet. There is much left to be written.

((((((((((((((((Aubrie))))))))))))))))))

Thanks for your post itainteasy. Really. I can relate to a lot of it in similar, yet different ways. (That totally doesn't make sense)

TG's little exercise yesterday actually really helped with the good/evil thing. I've done a lot of growing and have seen changes in pieces, just haven't put it all down on paper where I could "see" all of it at the same time.

While writing about the incident when I was 8, I remembered another detail. But I'm not sure it matters. Just raises more questions that I'm not even sure need asked. He said, "Please Don't tell your parents. That shouldn't have happened."

What shouldn't have? His arousal? The possible reason behind it? "Nature" hitting him at a really bad time? Shame at his inability to control it?

I see fear in his eyes. Let's be honest. My dad is a jerk. Every child he meets fears him. If Dad found out, whether the incident was an accident or on purpose, he would have been a mutant. What if the boy's dad found out? No secret he was abusive. I would be scared people would find out, nevermind the reason why.

*sigh* I'm tired. Tired of thinking. Tired of asking. I'm going to go be a mother and a friend this afternoon. Forget the rest.

(((Aubrie)))

(((itainteasy))) I can SO identify with what you wrote.

(((((((Aubrie))))))))

Enjoy your day. You don't have to chip away at this stuff every day.

((((((Abby))))))) I'm sorry you could identify with my post. I wish no one had any of these experiences.

Hi all -- big time lurker here. This is my first post ever. Just writing to say that I really relate to so much of this...being an ACOA, seeking out relationships with older men, and - in my case - being both an OW and a WW.

It's taken me a lot of time and energy and strength to take charge of my life and to realize that *I* get to decide what my life looks like -- that I can be ruled by my past and be a victim, or I can be a woman of integrity and honesty...and that meant rooting out the reasons why I once decided it was better to live a life of secrets and lies. Every day that I put between me and the last time I was unfaithful, the stronger I get. I hope the same happens for you and the others who relate to your story.

I'll probably go back into lurker mode now...just had to share that this post hit me big time. I'll be thinking of you and your healing.

Hi walktheline, and welcome! Thank you for chiming in. Appreciate your voice.

How do I apologize to the BW that I cannot track down? The women and children that were hurt by my ignorant actions? I cannot. And would it matter? I'm the demon. I'm the bad girl with daddy issues. F*ck. I'm that girl. And I can't change it. Can't take it back.

You know my past, girl. So much of your story resonates with me.

But I really want to answer to this. When I was working my 8th and 9th steps, I had a whole lot of confusion with who I owed amends to, and how to make those amends. My sponsor was wonderful at walking me through some of the situations that just were destroying me, and helping me see that I really did not owe an amends in that particular situation. Or, perhaps an amends was owed, but impossible to make. There are several BW's that I harmed, mostly unintentionally. I have no idea what their names are or how I would ever find them. There are also a lot of people I harmed horribly who are now deceased. My children... I cannot go back in time and be the mother they deserved. How do you make amends for that?

What I've learned in those cases is the concept of living amends. Every single day, I live my life intentionally. I seek to be kind, truthful, compassionate in all of my encounters. I ask God every day to show me how to be of maximum service to Him and to my fellow man/woman. I do the things I need to do in order to never hurt another person like I have in the past. And it has to be enough.

Personally, I think that the support, advice, 2X4s that you offer here in the wayward forum has to be the most awesome living amends you could possibly make. You are using your hurt, your past to help another person.

Prayers for your peace, Sweetie.

Every single day, I live my life intentionally. I seek to be kind, truthful, compassionate in all of my encounters. I ask God every day to show me how to be of maximum service to Him and to my fellow man/woman. I do the things I need to do in order to never hurt another person like I have in the past

I like this. Thank you.

Personally, I think that the support, advice, 2X4s that you offer here in the wayward forum has to be the most awesome living amends you could possibly make. You are using your hurt, your past to help another person.

I will second that thought.

Every single day, I live my life intentionally. I seek to be kind, truthful, compassionate in all of my encounters.

I really like this as well. I hope that this can bring you some peace. And I am glad that what you were able to write for yourself yesterday helped.

I like this. Thank you

You are so welcome.