SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My DD was 5 years ago and it's like something just "snapped". My WH says he's remorseful, does all of the right things, etc. But he won't go to MC because he doesn't think someone else knowing all of our problems would help anything. The further I get from DD, the less I seem to care. I still love him but not even close to what it was before. Then, about a year ago I found out that he had been lying to me this whole time about NC. He said, "I've only talked with her a couple of times and it was only work related." But something happened to me when I found that out. Literally, it's like a switch flipped and now I have very, very little caring left for him. It's weird because while I still love him, sort of…..I just don't care anymore. I don't care where he is, who he's with, what he's doing….just as long as he's not around me. As the George Strait song goes….I know she still loves me but I don't think she likes me anymore.

Maybe being vulnerable is something you fear. The risk of being let down or hurt again is more than you can bare. You become numb and detatched because it's saferthat way.

This sums it up ^^

I agree – that fear of being vulnerable is because of fear of more pain.

Today was our counseling session. In the IMAGO therapy, each person gets to make a statement about something that has come up that they want to talk about today. My husband immediately said that he thought we should discuss what I was so upset about last week – which was the "being vulnerable" thing upsetting me. I was amazed that he wanted to discuss that – since it would certainly bring the infidelity to light.

So we talked about it. I told him that I had to have a lot of faith to trust him enough to marry – for a third time. (I have been married twice before.) I told him that he'd withdrawn from me emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and physically. I referred to the infidelity. I told him that it affected me basically on three levels: first, that he betrayed himself. Second, that he betrayed me and our relationship. And third, that he had not been remorseful and done what it took to help us heal.

I told him that I was more than tired of him putting the emphasis on his shame and his pain, how bad he feels when he sees my pain, etc. I told him that he should have been focusing on the person whom he hurt. I told him that I believed he felt a great deal of regret, but not true remorse – and I explained what I thought was the difference: regret being what it is done to him and how he feels about it, and remorse being how it is affected me, and what he would do to help me through that. I told him that you cannot stab someone and then be angry if they bleed – referring to his anger at me for wanting to talk or ask questions. I also told him that not helping me heal was like hurting me, saying that he was sorry for hurting me, yet leaving me on the side of the road to die. Metaphorically.

I told him that I did not believe that he has been honest when he talked to me about the incidences of infidelity. I told him that I did not believe how much pain it caused him to see the hurt in my eyes – because he continued the online stuff after that point.

The counselor was paraphrasing my words at one time. He said that I fear vulnerability because I fear more pain. He asked if that was right. I told him he was touching on it, but it was more like I did not feel I would survive if I had to go through something like that again.

My husband said that he thought I no longer loved him and had given up on the marriage. The counselor asked him how he felt about that, and he said "heartbroken and lost, and I don't know what I would do". I have dreamed of a time when my husband would finally feel pain from this whole situation. I have thought that it would actually bring me some sort of sense of justice, and even pleasure. Instead, today I felt sad – felt empathy for him, because I know what he is feeling.

He is committed to finishing the 12 weeks of therapy, and this week was only number three. I suppose my only course of action at this point is to continue the therapy, and to "wait and watch". I will observe us individually and together, and try to get a handle on what, if anything, I am feeling. I have no desire for either of us to hurt anymore. As I told my husband today, I am not the same person I once was. I just feel dead inside.

This infidelity shit is loads of fun! A gift that keeps on giving.

[This message edited by WhatsRight at 5:51 PM, August 12th (Tuesday)]

My husband said that he thought I no longer loved him and had given up on the marriage.

Here's what I said:

inform him that he would be sitting across from a D lawyer and not an MC if that were the case.

Here's what you *heard* me say:

"if I had given up on the marriage, I would not be here"

I meant for my words to be read very narrowly and literally. I'm not sure that you *heard* my statement in the same way that I meant it, so I would like to clarify. My words were meant to give you *evidence* that his perception of where your head's at is wrong.

A BS who has "given up on the marriage" is NOT going to make a 12-week commitment to a specialized MC program.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the statement wasn't meant to be the same type of dismissive "I'm still here aren't I?" that a WS uses, but to point out a *flaw* in your WS' thought process.

As for your feelings......you are only a 1/4 of the way through your MC program. Even at the end of it, there may be no massive change. It took a long time for your feelings to get to where they are now, so give it some time to see what happens. You are most likely just depleted -- your Love Bank is waaayyyy empty right now and it'll take a while for any *deposits* to make any significant difference.

FWIW, I really am happy (in a relieved sorta way) for you that your WH has made this MC commitment for you and is actually participating. IIRC, he was pretty staunchly anti-ANY type of counseling, wasn't he?

Oh, thanks for that clarification. You're right – I didn't interpret what you said correctly. I see the difference. I will try to communicate that when the time is right.

It is true that my husband is not thrilled about therapy. We have been to three therapist before. One was just a family counselor – and our issues were far beyond her level of expertise, in my humble opinion. She basically said that I was expecting too much from the relationship. That definitely sounded like settling to me.

Fast forward to Chloe Madonis - we flew to California and spent – wait for it – $7000 for a private three day session with her. What I got out of it was that she told me I was making too big of a deal out of it. That my husband was so sorry and just temporarily insane, and I should get over it. My husband even agreed that she was bizarre. We mourned the loss of such a big chunk of our savings. I have to acknowledge that he was willing to pay in the hope that it could help.

Then, we had phone therapy with Janice Abrams – the author of "after the affair". For me – that was equally unhelpful.

We also did a weekend of Retrouvaille. That was the one thing that my husband came closest to liking. He liked the nonthreatening communication style. But when it came to moving into the problem-solving phase – he bailed.

So now we are doing IMAGO therapy. It is like Retrouvaille in that the method of nonthreatening communication is positive. But I fear that I will have the same problem with it as I did with Retrouvaille. That we will get pretty good at the communication/mirroring, but when it comes to follow through and problem-solving, I'm not holding my breath.

He always says that we do not need to do therapy because it has not helped. But I must admit that if I said it up, and make the appointments, he will usually – mostly be grudgingly – show up.

However, this seems to be different. He seems to be all in. I have not addressed any of the sessions when we leave them, and I think he is on pins and needles – praying that I will not talk about it outside therapy. He is totally conflict avoidance. I am fine to do that for him now – so his confidence in the therapy will increase. But, at some point, follow-through is imperative.

I admit that I have been a bit suspect of the reason he feels so concerned that I haven't given up on the marriage. I have wondered if it is because he doesn't know what he will do regarding his needs about his disability. However, I tried to put those thoughts away, and give him full credit for making the effort now – even though it is a long time coming.

Wow whatsright! Amazing! I'm so pleased for you.

How on earth did all this come about? I'm sorry I haven't PMed you in a while, I've been out of the loop for weeks.

PPGA

I think the bottom line, WhatsRight, is that your H is actually going along with all of these therapies, and even doing the work and that scares you, because you don't actually want to succeed. I think that in some way you like being miserable.

I think you are very comfortable being the martyr, WhatsRight, as it is all you have ever known. You are in your third marriage, your H has a disability, your children struggle with their own issues which you make yourself a part of (aren't they grown?).....but the infidelity is the easiest for you to feel victimized by and therefore refuse to move on from....but you stay (and resent) because it's "what's right".

Remember when I told you that you reminded me of my mom? I know these behaviors all too well. Martyr Syndrome is a real thing. It's not that your H doesn't have his issues, because he does. The same with the rest of your family....it's just that somehow along the way you have been taught to put everyone's needs ahead of your own and you love to feel needed. Of course you want to be happy, but it is not within your comfort zone....so you avoid it, all while seeming to chase it.

Wow!

PPGA – so good to hear from you!

hopeful romantic - I appreciate your input. I beg to differ. I also grew up with mother being a martyr and I personally have an aversion to it as a result. Yes, I have been married twice before. My first husband was uninterested in a connection with me, and by the time he decided to give it a try – my love for him had died. My second husband simply ran off with my best friend. Not really my choice.

My present husband was disabled many years before we met. I did not choose him based on his disability – rather in spite of it. We chose our children – adopted them - with the knowledge of certain issues based on their birthmothers alcohol and drug addictions. But I can say with conviction that we did not do so in order to feel martyred. We just wanted our family.

As with many – most - of us on this site, I was devastated and destroyed by my husband's infidelity. But I do not believe it was because I wanted to be a martyr. I went through all of the unproductive, crying, screaming, etc. to coerce him into wanting a relationship with me again after the infidelity. He did not seem interested. Based on my experience with my first marriage, I explained to my present husband that I was concerned that by the time he was interested in healing, it might be too late for me.

I don't even know if that is what has happened. All I know is that I can open myself up to a certain extent to him – especially in therapy when we are talking – but when it gets down to a certain level, self protection kicks in.

Happiness I feel from time to time – it's joy in my marriage that I am looking for. And I am afraid that if I open myself to it – that I would not survive the disappointment should my husband decide to hurt me again.

Also, I'm sure going through my present situation doesn't help. My sister has been seriously injured. I am trying to take care of her while doing the double duty with our aging parent. In the meantime, one of my children - the one with the drug addiction – has just let us know that he is moving away. My mind is scattered under the circumstances and I am trying to remain as balanced as possible until they can begin to be resolved.

Being vulnerable is what I have always asked of my husband – but he has resisted. Now it seems to be me who is afraid of being vulnerable – just because I am overwhelmed and overloaded at this point.

I wanted to share something about our last counseling session. At the first, we are supposed to say something we might want to address. Together we choose which we will choose, then we will address it. This past week we agreed to address his concern – that I would never believe anything has told me or will tell me about his infidelity.

He says he doesn't remember such things, or exactly. He says he just does not focus on these facts and feel such shame that he wants to dismiss them. He also says that sometimes he doesn't know the answer, so his brain just searches for an answer that he thinks I am expecting. It is true it has been seven years – so maybe my desire for facts is unrealistic.

The counselor is very careful to never take sides. However, he stopped communication at this point and explain to me how it is possible that my husband may very well not remember the facts. That maybe it is not intentional lying. The counselor's explanation did not seem to be one sided – and even reasonable.

My question is this – what happens if he is truly unable to remember, and explains the differences in his answers from time to time as poor memory and saying what he thinks I want to hear – rather than lies, yet I must know the truth?

I'm screwed, right?

WhatsRight, your rebuttal is exactly the kind I was expecting.....and greatly supports my theory. It makes no difference to me, one way or the other, so you don't need to justify anything to me. Just think about it and maybe bring it up to your counselor.

Well, I don't really know how to respond.

If you are correct, and happiness is not in my comfort zone – it is due to fear - and that is what I am wondering how to work through.

I'm a BS almost 3 years out. After so many disappointments I stopped the madness and detached. In the beginning it was forced, go to bed, don't engage sort of stuff. Then with time it became natural.

The only thing I feel sometimes is "guilt". Watching him still trying to fix us, reading new books, initiating conversation but I walk away. I told him I stay only for the kids, I honestly believe he didn't take that statement seriously. I grieved our marriage through counselling, it's like he died. I don't acknowledge our anniversary or wear my rings. It you asked me 15 years ago if we would turn out like this is have laughed in your face.

Affairs are not a "fog", they are a choice! He spent 5 years behind my back proving to me how little I meant. I told him he will spend a lifetime proving otherwise and even on his deathbed I won't believe him.

I too feel nothing, he is just a room mate, paycheque and babysitter to my kids.

Such sad situations these are. ..

I think that in some way you like being miserable.

I think this is the most offensive insulting thing I have ever seen posted on SI.

So I am sending a message of support to WhatsRight.

I have found a lot of peace over the past year detaching from my WH. Sometime I feel pressured to reattach too quickly when I don't feel safe. That is when I get upset and stressed.

I wonder whether you cried - not because you "like being miserable" but because you have found some peace and safety in staying a bit detached, and you are feeling pressured to give that up.

So my message is this. We all need to take care of ourselves as best we can. Sometimes our partner makes us feel safe enough to let down our walls. Sometimes they don't.

It has nothing to do with masochism.

If I were able to say exactly what I thought of that post, I would probably be banned from SI.

Rbf1234...

I really appreciate that!

I guess I should clarify about the topic we were discussing in therapy. My husband said that he feared I would never believe the things he had told me surrounding his infidelity. Again, maybe he is right when he was referring to details that he doesn't always remember it exactly the same.

However, what we did not get around to discussing during that therapy session was this: There were things that he told me that I'm not sure any reasonable person would believe. For example, due to his disability – he must have an injection to produce an erection. ( Sorry for the TMI). He told me that when he picked up the prostitute "unexpectedly" that he just happened to have the medicine necessary for that injection – he was out of town at the time. I can't help but wonder what he was doing with it.

And another example was that when I saw a picture of his erect penis with a prostitute in the background – which he was sending to a supposed stranger online – he told me that it was Not sexual. All these years, I have doubted EVERYTHING he told me because there are obviously some lies. Now I am trying to understand there may have been some lies, but that not necessarily everything out of his mouth was a lie.

Our counselor has told us that continuing weekly with the "safe" communication, this type of thing can be reopened, re-examined, and resolved. What I am afraid of is that I will let go of my fear and open up again - be vulnerable again - and he will hurt me again.

I don't believe that I am wanting to be miserable – just the opposite. I think being miserable is actually what I am so afraid of. That will be not only miserable – but not come out of it on the other end - like I BARELY did this time.

I think that in some way you like being miserable

.

I think this is the most offensive insulting thing I have ever seen posted on SI.

I think, rbf1234, that at only one year out, it is too early for you to see beyond the pain of infidelity, and so you feel the need to come to WhatsRight's aid. But WhatsRight has been at this for several years now and can't figure out why she is not happy. She refuses to leave the marriage, cannot fix her H (because no one can fix someone who doesn't want to be fixed) and won't fix herself.

As the daughter of a martyr myself, it was very easy to follow that familiar path. It usually is passed down from one generation to the next (case in point: WhatsRight). While I was not a classic case of Martyr Syndrome throughout my adulthood, my H's A did bring out my co-dependency coping mechanisms (a huge component of Martyr Syndrome). It took me 6 years of R to finally come to grips with what I needed to do to become happy again, and it wasn't by fixing my H. I can thank other SIers for being honest with me and helping me see that, but none more so than WhatsRight herself (thank you WhatsRight!). I saw my mother in her, and darned if I didn't see myself too! She was a mirror.

So I owe it to WhatsRight to be brutally honest, because subtlety hasn't worked yet.

It isn't as though WhatsRight is the only one here who deals with this problem. Many of us here have co-dependency issues, whether they are a lifestyle choice or temporary default. Those of us who do this do so because of our own FOO issues. Anyone who has done a little reading on co-dependency knows that we tend to want to stick to what is familiar from our childhoods, even when it is bad for us....it is not a conscious choice, but a choice nonetheless. I don't believe for a minute that WhatsRight choses to be unhappy, but I do believe that is what she is most familiar with and therefore defaults to.

HR, you are mistaking my registration date for my DD.

But you clearly have all the answers already so need need to continue the dialogue.