SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

(((neverdidithink)))

I'm sorry. It really hurts when we realize we aren't a priority for them. (((Hugs)))

The really hard part is I don't believe he doesn't care, he's just too afraid to face himself and the damage he has done. Unfortunately for me, the end result is exactly the same.

Just a couple of points.

Sometimes it takes the realization of losing the marriage for someone to realize they can in fact change.

You might be putting the cart before the horse with marriage counseling. I understand that you want your husband to take more initiative in your relationship, but he obviously doesn't know how. The place he is most likely to learn that is in MC. To expect him to take the initiative to go to MC is a bit like telling a drowning man "Just swim back to the boat and we will go get you some swimming lesson." I completely get the desire to draw a line in the sand, but you might want to consider making the appointment for MC and giving him some time there before drawing that line. If he refuses to go to MC that's a different discussion.

Thank you all for the hugs and the safe place to vent, I really need this today.

((never)) - I could have written your post some days.

[This message edited by rachelc at 3:04 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)]

neverdidithink- I almost never post here. But I wanted to say thank you for your post and honesty. BH here, and my situation is very much like yours. I have been trying to get her to tear down that wall which only hardens it. Even our MC when talking privately to me has said she just doesn't get it, and even she (our MC) is having trouble showing her.

I am also trying to find a way to avoid door #3, but don't think that's possible. Of course I have small children so that complicates matters.

Edit- I really wanted to say thank you though- not talk about me. Your thread has helped me quite a bit!

[This message edited by slater13 at 2:57 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)]

Wodnships, I don't think this is the right time for MC. IMHO he needs to get back to IC and deal with the guilt and shame if we're to move forward. He's too embroiled in his own pain to deal with us.

slater, I'm happy this thread helps you. That's one of the amazing things about SI - that we learn so much from each other. (even if we only learn we're not alone in all of this)

Feel free to talk through your sitch on this thread if it will be valuable, I'm happy to have the company. You're right that your situation is much more complicated with young children. BTDT and I understand too well the pain associated with any decisions you make whether you R, D, or the limbo of just not Ding.

I could have written your post some days.

(((rachel))) I've found myself unable to respond to some of your posts becuase they hit a little too close to home for me.

I agree that IC is the best thing he can do right now and I get feeling tired of driving the message home only to get...crickets. He would rather you lower your expectations of him, rather then take the reigns and get real with himself.

I like Janis Abrahms Spring's High Cost and Low Cost Behavior examples in her book, After the Affair. Low cost is for both parties. HC for WS party. Not sure if that will be helpful for you but there it is.

Good luck ndit.

I can understand how your feeling if he is just trying to avoid facing the pain of what he has done. My personal experience with that gives me some hope that maybe he'll turn this around. But you have to be willing to lose it all for the chance to have it all.

It seems really ridiculous that he's willing to lose it all to avoid the negative feelings. For us, the issue was, he didn't believe I'd make him leave forever. So it was to his advantage to encourage me to accept less than I needed. He wasn't going to lose out either way, and of course not facing the pain is easier for a conflict avoider.

That's what prompted our big change. When I was done with him not doing enough. I told him to leave. I'm not sure how he knew I really meant it that time but he did. He tried bargaining to stay in the house but away from me and I just said no.

He asked what it took for him to stay. It was annoying to hear because I said it a million times but I told him again. He agreed to do it and he has been since, without needing me to act as warden.

His main obstacle was also his shame and facing the pain he caused.

People don't change until staying the same becomes more difficult than changing.

He wasn't motivated to face this huge mountain of pain until he was going to lose it all if he didn't.

It's exactly what everyone here says. I believe if I had the courage to get tough with him 3 years before I did, I wouldn't have suffered so much pain. 3 years is just what it took for me to be less afraid of leaving then of staying.

I hope he sees the loss of you and your marriage as too much and he commits to meet your needs. If he shows that he's willing, don't hold back on what you need.

[This message edited by BtraydWife at 4:23 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)]

LA44,

I like Janis Abrahms Spring's High Cost and Low Cost Behavior examples in her book, After the Affair.

This is another example of me doing the work. I have read this book (and highlighted things thst were especially significant to me) as well as "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair". He has not read either.

God, I've reread this whole thread and know EXACTLY what I would say to any other poster...

We had a conversation about all of this last night.

He feels I'm still holding the trump card over his head. When things get rough, I can always (and sometimes do) play the "yes, but you cheated so this is on you". He thinks so matter what changes he makes, I'll never really forgive him. He feels pressured to react a certain way because that's what I want, and when I don't get my way I get frustrated and walk away and he always has to be the one to reach out.

There is some truth to all of this. I do think I have pretty much forgiven him for the past, but I'm really stuck on the present behavior and not having my needs met. I put my needs above his because he cheated and I deserve it. Not really a healthy dynamic.

WH travels for business more than 50% of the time. Because of this and the weird hours he works, he does most of the calling when he is away. I just never know when he's going to be available. This has really become a sore spot for WH. He feels like he carries all the responsibility for staying in touch and if he doesn't reach out, we don't talk.

His view is a little extreme, IMHO, but based in fact. When he is away and doesn't call, I assume it's because he is busy. He reminded me that he has voice mail - if he can't answer the phone he'll call me back or text me to tell me he is going to be tied up a while. This is something I really need to be mindful of. I understand the feeling of carrying too much of the weight.

The fight Tuesday night was related to this. He asked me to join him on an upcoming trip. He wants to "take back" someplace he took AP. It's a location and hotel we've been to togther and as a family. He sees this trip as a big step toward healing and is very proud of himself for working out the details and presenting the idea to me. He thinks he stuck his neck out and I don't appreciate his effort. He is adamant that he is showing me by doing things like this that he is carrying the weight and I just refuse to acknowledge it. We have different priorities WRT weight distribution and will not resolve this unless we can reach some understanding of what weight the other needs/wants us to carry rather than carrying what we want to carry or are most comfortable carrying.

We made no progress on the shame spiral. He told me he thinks I should be happy he is paralyzed by this as it shows how deeply sorry he is for what he did. I supposed it's better than him seeing him do the happy dance when I'm hurting, but it's really not very helpful to healing either one of us or our M.

I felt better after we talked. He said he didn't feel any better at all. I guess we made no progress.

I put my needs above his because he cheated and I deserve it. Not really a healthy dynamic.

Do me a favor and go back and read these two sentences out load. Read them a couple times if necessary. Really think about what you just said.

I help create this dynamic because I deserve it.

This dynamic is unhealthy.

Thus (unsaid)

I deserve an unhealthy dynamic.

As BS' it's easy to get caught up in what was done to us. There is nothing in a relationship that removes our responsibility from our side of the street. Of course most of the heavy lifting has to be done by the WS, but we are 100% responsible for creating a healthy and productive relationship (I know 50/50 is the saying around her but I firmly believe it is 100/100.)

That's not to say you can't or shouldn't put yourself first. If you aren't in a good place you are no use to anyone else, but it has to be done in a healthy way that also considers your partner and your relationship. The goal of any marriage should be to align yourselves in such a way that what is best for you is best for him and visa versa.

The fight Tuesday night was related to this. He asked me to join him on an upcoming trip. He wants to "take back" someplace he took AP. It's a location and hotel we've been to togther and as a family. He sees this trip as a big step toward healing and is very proud of himself for working out the details and presenting the idea to me. He thinks he stuck his neck out and I don't appreciate his effort. He is adamant that he is showing me by doing things like this that he is carrying the weight and I just refuse to acknowledge it. We have different priorities WRT weight distribution and will not resolve this unless we can reach some understanding of what weight the other needs/wants us to carry rather than carrying what we want to carry or are most comfortable carrying.

Languages of Love is a great book you both should read it. Sometimes one partner is doing everything that they know how to do to show the other partner they care, but they are basically talking different languages. The partner who is working feels their efforts are getting ignored and the other partner feels there needs are getting ignored. In a way both are right and both are wrong.

I know you shut this down before but reading through this thread there really is a lot to be gained for you and your husband in MC. I know he has his things that he needs to work on and IC is vital. A MC will help you work out middle ground and explore each others needs in a safe environment. They will also help you both learn to express these needs in less threatening ways. I'm sorry to push the point when you already said you weren't interested, but when I see the kind of disconnects you are describing it's hard for me to keep my mouth shut. (it's a sickness I know)

I'm sorry.

You aren't going to be able to talk him into seing things your way. The shame keeps him from having fully realized empathy for you. It's still about him.

Are you still willing to walk? That's when he'll make a commitment to change, if it's ever going to happen.

[This message edited by BtraydWife at 10:48 AM, August 14th (Thursday)]

Wodnships, I wasn't very clear here:

I put my needs above his because he cheated and I deserve it. Not really a healthy dynamic.

I put my needs above his because he cheated. I put my needs above his because as the betrayed I deserve more effort than the cheater.

I don't think I deserve an unhealthy dynamic at all and that's what I am trying to resolve. I do think I have a hand in creating the unhealty dynamic by insisting that my needs must come first.

Languages of Love is a great book you both should read it. Sometimes one partner is doing everything that they know how to do to show the other partner they care, but they are basically talking different languages. The partner who is working feels their efforts are getting ignored and the other partner feels there needs are getting ignored. In a way both are right and both are wrong.

I'm in complete agreement with you. I have it and have read it more than once. Unfortunately, it's with the stack of books WH has opted not to read...

I know you shut this down before but reading through this thread there really is a lot to be gained for you and your husband in MC. I know he has his things that he needs to work on and IC is vital. A MC will help you work out middle ground and explore each others needs in a safe environment. They will also help you both learn to express these needs in less threatening ways. I'm sorry to push the point when you already said you weren't interested

Please understand that I never shut this down or said I wasn't interested in MC. I WANT to go to MC. I voiced my frustration that WH promised to set it up and didn't. The dynamic is he drops the ball, I pick it up. I execute what he promised but didn't follow through on. He's relieved it got done and I'm resentful that I had to clean up after him again.

I believe MC would be more beneficial if he re-started IC, but at this point I'd take either. Eventually I'll get whatever I arrange.

T/J -

I put my needs above his because he cheated. I put my needs above his because as the betrayed I deserve more effort than the cheater.

I understand this thinking, but R requires you to move past it - the sooner, the better. The problem with this formulation is that it makes you a Persecutor and your H a Victim (check out karpman drama triangle). This formulation allows your H to whine that you'll never let his A go instead of owning and resolving his own crap. Besides, if one partner always wins because he was betrayed, I expect the M won't work well for long.

R is a process of building the M you and your partner want. That means both partners' needs are equally important. Conflicts occur, of course, and need to be resolved, but R requires resolutions that fit the new M you both want.

I'd rather say:

'My needs are more important to me than my W's are, because I'm the one who can best speak to and for my needs. Her needs are more important to her than mine are, because she's the one who can best speak to and for her needs.'

- and -

'We're committed to one another, so I know we'll work to resolve the inevitable conflicts in ways that best serve our M.'

I think it's really important to distinguish between requirements, needs, and desires/wants and to get them all out on the table explicitly.

For example, I wanted my W to undergo hours an hours of interrogation (a desire, not a need). She wanted to not talk about the A (a desire). Answering Qs was also one of my requirements, though, so if she didn't deliver, our M was over.

That wasn't my need over-riding hers - it was me freely choosing what I required and my W freely choosing to comply. Since we both exercised free choice, we both stayed out of the Drama Triangle roles of Victim, Persecutor/Perpetrator, Rescuer/Enabler. That allowed us to recognize a requirement was satisfied so we could move on to resolving other issues.

End T/J

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:37 AM, August 14th (Thursday)]

I understand this thinking, but R requires you to move past it - the sooner, the better. The problem with this formulation is that it makes you a Persecutor and your H a Victim (check out karpman drama triangle). This formulation allows your H to whine that you'll never let his A go instead of owning and resolving his own crap.

sisoon, you are absolutely correct. That's really what I was trying to get to with my unhealthy dynamic statement. Me holding the victim card isn't helping him, me, or the M. It took me a while to realize how much responsibility I had in this because I was busy lobbying for myself and my needs.

@sisoon

Thank you. That is the point I was trying to make but you said it so much better.