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I frequently apologized at first. Admittedly, it wasn't the specific apologies I now know I must give. During an emotional conversation about 3 weeks ago, I was crying and telling him how awful I felt, that I literally feel sick at the level of hurt that I brought to his world and that I felt like I needed to apologize everyday. He kept telling me that I don't need to and that he doesn't need to hear me say 'I'm sorry". I was so confused, I tried to put myself in his position and you bet your butt I'd want to hear apologies!!! I am walking on eggshells in terms of not wanting to be dismissive or disrespectful of what he says he wants/needs, even when I think or believe that he's not always sure.

He keeps saying that forgiving me isn't an issue. He knows and believes I am a good person, and that he sees how his actions contributed to what happened (without taking responsibility, of course...that's my job). I've cautioned him about moving too fast, forgiving too quickly, etc. He says he feels like too much damage has been done from prior to the A. We didn't have the perfect marriage, to be sure, but it wasn't as bad as either of us are recalling. Something I've read is typical for both spouse's...over-emphasizing issues and viewing the past through a lense that's skewed.

Melozia, I don't want to make it harder on you, but your husband seems to still be in shock mode if I carefully look at this statement. In my opinion trying to work with the deal breakers and exceptions he is getting more and more into some cognitive dissonances, ends up blaming and also contradicts him-self.

he sees how his actions contributed to what happened (without taking responsibility, of course...that's my job).

I'm sorry but in no way his actions contributed to the cheating. There are no perfect marriages whatsoever, but there are differences in how people react to the natural problems in every marriage! It doesn't matter what he has done, you always could handle the situation better as most people do. Therefore, the problem is not your BH actions, but your reaction to what you've experienced and most probably even unconsciously and falsely perceived as excusing an affair. To me it seems that having those internal struggles and his inability to resolve them in a healthy way makes your BH to blame himself for the problems. While you must explore how eventually your thinking led you to do something like cheating, your BH must look how he resolves his struggles without blaming himself.

We didn't have the perfect marriage, to be sure, but it wasn't as bad as either of us are recalling.

No one has perfect marriages. That's only in the movies and it is a delusion. One can work on it, but now dealing with the infidelity has priority and I think you should reassure him that his actions did not cause you to cheat. Those were your choices; your false responses and understanding that led you to do so. Help him with this.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 2:47 PM, February 7th (Sunday)]

I'm a WW, I’m about 4.5 months out of DDay, we’ve been separated for 2 months and I live 500 miles away from BH. I’ve been told he wants a D twice but thankfully, he has not filed. Like you, my A were mostly communicative, I won’t even call them emotional bc it really was more of a desire to feel desired, and one did get P which I totally regretted. I also wasn’t the one to tell my BH although I wanted to many times, but also chickened out. Oh, the things we would do differently. But I identify with you in a lot of ways.

I do think your MC is probably not a good fit for *both* of you. He does not need to feel like he's not reacting appropriately, or like he's being attacked and given his emotional state, thats probably how he feels. I think that is probably how he feels.

Right now we're both working on ourselves in IC and just recently restarted with an MC. Even though your MC might be highly regarded, that doesn't mean she's a great fit for you. Our MC in the beginning actually did some serious damage for us. Not only was she unethical (someone else posted some stuff about their MC seeing them each in IC as well, and there are major red flags with this. Also the wanting to hug...mine did hug me, she told my BS things I didn't want her to share, even stupid little things, and I will likely be reporting her for this combined with other crappy behaviors but thats besides the point)but it put a lot of focus on the M when I think for my BS it was like woah woah woah, she did this, not me, why am I being held accountable or expected to change? Between the two of us, we have seen 5 diff counselors in 4.5 months, and just recently found one we like together. He is also my IC, is a psych which helps because it not only helps that he has an understanding of ME and what led me down this path, but also to effectively communicate this to my BH, and also to serve as a mediator. It also helps me that he's a male bc I'm navigating this alone right now and it helps me see where my BH coming from a little more with my male C's perspective. But the point is, you have to find one that's right. He doesn't feel safe with you right now, and has to feel safe with both his IC and his MC. I think there is a lot of emphasis on the marriage in the beginning. I do think that both parties play a role in contributing to what made the marriage vulnerable, but theres a big difference between the terms contributing and causing. I think you need to figure out in IC what caused you, what was going on with you, and why your responses were what they were in terms of having an A.

Some of this your BH needs to do on his own time. I suggest you read up on how to save your marriage alone (leave out the stuff bout dating other people) and follow some of those tips, combined with the things your BS seems responsive to in your own healing. But your healing and his healing are different. His is probably going to take longer. You knew about your A, he didn't. But the sooner you can get to the root of your shit, the sooner you can express that to him, bc right now he likely still doesn't understand. Mine doesn't and I have gotten to the root. We're communicating and I'm effectively able to express to him 'this is where my thought process came from, this is what I want to correct' You can't just spray weed killer, you've got to get to the root.

My BS also found it harder to be around me, obviously. He told me that he questioned EVERYTHING, even if I said that I had a nice time with him, he thought I was lying. He's definitely plagued, as I think your BH probably is, too. He thought he knew you, his life, your relationship, and now he doesn't. I've also heard forgiveness, as well as he knows I'm a good person. I think my BS has said it bc he wants to believe it, but we're not there yet. Have you forgiven yourself? Bc he's definitely not going to be able to forgive (if at all) if you haven't, and given our boats, to me, it's unlikely that you truly have.

You cannot force your husband or control him, but you can try and influence him. What seems to have helped me is not focusing only on the M and my A. We talk, about whatever the hell he wants to talk about. I do remind him how much I love him, but I do not expect him to return those sentiments. I continue my IC, and my IC suggested to fully understand me and the situation, he needs to get to a place of understanding my BH as well. I asked BH if he'd be willing to speak with my IC, he happily agreed. That turned into us also doing a session with him as MC, and we will continue to do that for the time being.

This is a slow slow process as I'm learning. And yea, we as WW have to take that heavy burden on ourselves. We have to do the heavy lifting and right now, we have to carry this relationship, granted at the pace our BS's set. It's hard and it's difficult. My BH came to a place where he just doesn't need to make a decision. At all. He doesnt need to decide if he wants us to work on it or not. He's not emotionally there. Which makes a lot of sense to me (even though I hate it) bc the way I look at it is this...at the time we started our A's, they seemed like a good idea, somehow, some way, we rationalized it. We acted on emotion, and obviously, that was a terrible idea. Choosing to D right now, IMHO, is an emotional decision. Choosing to R could be, as well. Let him take his time, get his mind right. Gently tell him your concerns about HIM and his EMOTIONAL well being, recognize what you've learned he may be feeling, and keep your marriage out of those conversations. Keep your distance without fully disconnecting. Let him breathe, give him space, let him know you always want to talk about this with him, that you desperately want to communicate with him, but allow him to either bring it up, or decide if he wants to discuss anything that day. Go with it, no matter how badly you want to spill everything to him. Let his process flow naturally to him, but without losing sight of all of the things he needs to see from you. He needs consistency from you, no matter where you're at in the process.

I think that we as WW's need to walk the walk more than talk the talk. I'm no expert. I don't know if we'll make it through. But I'm sure as shit not investing in anything other than saving my M right now other than myself. The only thing I do know is this. At first my BH was so gung ho about saving this. Then one day he decided he wasn't. Then one day he was, then one day he wasn't. Then he wanted to D. Didn't want to try at all. Then he just didn't know what he wanted to do. Now he's not fully committed, but he's willing to take the next step with MC and then possibly spending some time together. My point is...right now, you can't believe your BH in anything he says. The good, the bad, the neutral. The only thing you can trust is yourself, and the process. Don't do the things that aren't working. Try something new in that arena. Keep doing the things that are.

I know how hard this is for you. You wish he could see into your heart, see how you don't want to only focus on the bad, but you want the focus to be more on the good. See how desperately you want to save this, and see that you won't ever hurt him like this again. But right now, to be blunt, he probably questions if you have a heart, lol. Just be consistent. Focus on any positive, focus on you, and you'll be okay. It's hard. I know. But you're not in this alone!

Wow hearthurts, I feel like you are inside of my life!

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your response and advice. I think it's clear that I need to stop asking anything of BH right now and simply focus on reinforcing my love and commitment, while working hard to understand why I made the choices I did.

I've already gained a lot of insight, and it's coming more apparent to me what some of the lies were that I told myself.

I love my BH, he's not perfect, but he's the man I want to grow old with. I want him to know, without question how committed I am to making that a safe option for him.

Funny you say that, because I feel so much of what you're going through! If only I had enough posts to get to PM, but I'll follow your threads for sure.

I definitely think that asking him, or even trying to guide him is walking a fine line. I used to be my BH's main shoulder when he needed advice, and now, I'm just not. That hurts. It hurts to know I've hurt him so badly and so deeply. It also gets tricky for us bc we want them to be so on board now that we know the true error of our ways. I wish for everyone that it worked like that.

I also experience the over emphasizing into how 'bad' things were before. My perception is totally different from that of my BH. Which is why some of the methods I'm using in our communication is trying to bring back the positive feelings he used to have towards me. It's hard bc every time you're like 'did it make a difference?' It doesn't but I think slowly it will. I try not to remind him of when we did this and when we did that. I just try and bring back the person he does love, while showing him the person I'm becoming. It's a major balancing act. I show him the sad emotions when appropriate. I agree with everything he says. Not that I'm feeding him bullshit, but I try to validate his feelings as much as possible. When we talk about ending it, I agree, but I'm clear on this. I don't want the marriage we had when I had my A, either. I let him know that I want a new marriage for both of us, one that is safe and satisfying and fufilling for us both. I also let him know that I want to realize the hopes and dreams we once had. And that for me, I can either put all of my eggs back into our basket and invest in just us, or I can invest in being alone or building something new from the ground up with someone new. For me, it makes sense to build on the history we already have. I use *for me* a lot. A LOT. it helps him recognize I'm not trying to project onto him, or trying to guide him. If you're like me, you're probably a blubbering idiot when you try and talk this out with him. I have found that it helps for me to write to him. Part of what is difficult for my BH I think is seeing me cry constantly and always in distress. When I write to him, he can feel my emotions, but can't see them. Plus then my thoughts are clear and concise. I don't forget anything, there's no room to get distracted. It allows him to see my vulnerability without giving me an opportunity to get defensive or accusatory or anything like that. I also think it really gives me the chance to get in touch with myself. Then he has the ability to control when he reads it.

I suggested this to someone earlier, but there are 3 Ted talks you should check out. They're on Ted.com. The first is on infidelity by Esther Perel. Then check out the power of vulnerability and the one on shame and fear by Brene Brown. Watch the vulnerability first. I've watched them over and over.

Keep posting!

also, I think my BH wants to feel in control; he didn't ask for this, certainly didn't deserve it. Give him the control but still maintain your stance on fighting for this. Remind him that you're here, that you want this, that you're fighting and working. Do it gently, don't bring it up too often, plant seeds when you want to ask, but let him control when he gets there.

In the meantime, work on researching MCs. Go to one by yourself, see what you think. In my experience, psychologists seem to be more helpful than licensed counselors.

Also, be aware that the way your BH found out also probably affects his thought process. Not even that it didn't come from you, but that someone kind of reveled in telling him. I was stalked by the partner of my AP...she knows more about me than my AP did. She contacted me a full year before contacting my BH...at work. It was definitely a calculated move. And while he deserved to know FOR SURE, coming from her in the way it was delivered definitely messes with him. Also remember that he's now just finding out that you have all of these things inside of you that you couldn't or didn't express to him. you're a new person to him, and he's figuring you out. Be transparent, but be careful not to jump to conclusions about yourself too soon. I did that, and now I'm taking back things I said...not because I didn't think they had relevance, but because know I see that that isn't really what was going on in my head. I have my IC to thank for that.

Again hearthurts, I feel as though you are inside my world (and more freaky, inside my head! haha).

I COMPLETELY understand what you're describing in every respect.

Be transparent, but be careful not to jump to conclusions about yourself too soon. I did that, and now I'm taking back things I said...not because I didn't think they had relevance, but because know I see that that isn't really what was going on in my head.

THIS! I have been coming to this same realization....which BH then sees as more signs of dishonesty. Nothing is worse than vilifying yourself and saying things that reflect that, then having to be *honest* and take some of it back.

Thanks for the Ted Talk recommends. I'd seen the Esther Perel one and found it really helpful (BH refused to watch it).

There are certainly enough parallels to our situations that I very much empathize with you.

One other thing you should be thinking about here - you blame your best friend and her husband for "ratting you out" and causing your BH pain... I'm sorry, but they did no such thing! You are the one who cheated, you are the one who caused your BH pain. Until you own that, your R will go nowhere fast.

One other thing you should be thinking about here - you blame your best friend and her husband for "ratting you out" and causing your BH pain... I'm sorry, but they did no such thing!

The issues of anger I have towards the two individuals who took it upon themselves to make choices about my right to disclose information to my spouse is absolutely something I am struggling with. But not in terms of my ownership or BH's right to know. Perhaps in another post I will explain the circumstances of what happened, but I need to resolve some of it for myself first.

Definitely communicate to him when you can that the more you discover about yourself, the more you are discovering what fueled you to go down this path. Let him know that while you thought this was maybe a relatively superficial issue, you are working hard on self discovery and realizing that there is a lot more going on in your subconscious than you realized before. If you don't feel like you're really getting to the root, find a new IC. I started with I want to feel wanted, but truthfully, I've now realized that it mainly stems from complexes that I've developed from my adolescent years that I never really recognized or tackled before. At some point I was triggered to go back to those complexes and thats what lies at the root. So now, it's nothing that my BH did, nothing I felt about him, nothing about our life together that fueled this.

I'm sure you feel especially betrayed by the husband of your best friend, and your best friend and it is also painful for us to not have been the ones to be able to work up the courage and respect to tell our BH the truth about what we had done before they heard it from somebody else. I have also been angry, thought only in my head about what I would say or what I would do, etc. I have never communicated with the person who told him, other than some very life threatening text messages she sent me to which I never responded. But I will tell you this. Try not to struggle with it. Just try and let it go. I've had to let go of friends during this process bc they felt I could not give them enough of my attention while I focused on my marriage and myself. See ya! Adios! Only in really low times do I ever think of the person who told my BH for me. That situation in itself is out of your hands and nothing can be done to control the past. That you have to let die. You simply cannot allow that anger to affect you, you have enough emotions going on. Give yourself the blessing of just washing your hands of that.

I have been beating myself up over my PA for a long time, and had made the decision well before my BH found out to stop my flirtatious convos with other people. I felt like things were going well for me, and then the bomb got dropped. Yes, I should have told him. Again, the things we know now. We can't change it. I wish I could. I told my IC the other day that sometimes I wonder if I had gotten catfished...if the person who told him was actually someone that knew me, knew how well we were doing, knew how great my life was before this was outed (I know it's not, the timing is just beyond) and he said this. We go on thinking that we're really in control of our lives. But then something happens and we realize, we're just not. It's called realizing the ego, and it's life changing, and you will always come out of it a different person. I feel like I'm now undoing who I was to get to who I am. My inner demons fueled me, and my A was something I did, and not WHO i am. But, I know that WHO i am will come out fully at the end of this process. Try and focus on that. I hope it gives you some more hope. I don't always have a whole lot, but I do kind of believe in faking it until you make it. Positive affirmations, right?

You have gotten lots of good, insightful advice. One thing I missed seeing as I scanned the thread - I think it's waaaaaaay too early to be dissecting your pre-A marriage. Way. Not even 4 months after day? And you were out of the house for 2 months after that? This is in no way enough time for him to see a pattern of trustworthy, remorseful behavior from you which would BEGIN to allow him to have some glimmers of trust and respect and be vulnerable enough to examine pre-A issues. He is still in shock, bleeding out on the floor. Right now should be all about him, his pain, what he needs. Your needs are on the back burner, your pre-A marriage is back-burner. Your focus should be on him, and on examining your own issues as to why you made the choices you did.

Plenty of people are unhappy and don't cheat. Why was it ok for you to cheat? Are you defensive? Blaming your marriage(sounds like it.) now is the time to look at you, strive for humility, and how you can be safer for your BS.

It took me 4 months of watching WH's actions(not words) to agree to try R, and close to a year to really start digging into pre-A marriage issues(of which there were many.) If our MC had said the things yours had said, if the focus had been forced onto the marriage too soon - I would have been outta there. Continuing down this road could force a resolution you don't want.