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EA vs PA? Your Thoughts.

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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 6:51 PM on Friday, May 6th, 2016

This probably comes out of left field, Ctf, but it might be useful to you someday.

It sounds like you want to compare pain and come out with something that most people would consider worse - that is, IMO, you want to be able to say, 'My pain is worst.'

You have been victimized (lower-case v), but I suspect you've taken on the Victim (upper-case V) role in a Drama Triangle (see karpmandramatriangle.com, for example). Unfortunately, you simply can't heal if you're in Victim.

You probably feel immense pain. Feel it. It doesn't matter how anybody else feels. Your pain is the only pain you can process, it's the only pain you need to process, and you can process it only using the tools you have or acquire. But you're a human being, so you have the tools.

Work on yourself Ctf. That's the way to recover.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 31356   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 7549222
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PeaceLily210 ( member #48607) posted at 7:21 PM on Friday, May 6th, 2016

My WH's EA was no accident. He created a secret instagram account and email so he could meet women without me knowing... Then he began a relationship with one of the women he met.

I wholeheartedly agree that betrayal is betrayal and pain is pain.

He cheated - It was bad
He changed - yes, they can change
We both put in the work and continue to work on our healed M.
R is possible!

posts: 1867   ·   registered: Jul. 15th, 2015   ·   location: By the sea
id 7549265
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Lark ( member #43773) posted at 7:46 PM on Friday, May 6th, 2016

My husband had two OW. One was purely a PA, the other an EA/PA

They both hurt.

You don't accidentally become intimate with someone - physically or emotionally.

The PA side was devastating that he would have sex with her then come home and look me in the face.

The EA side was devastating because long after the PA was "done" - it haunted me. If my husband is physically with me, I know he isn't physically with someone else. Mentally? I have no clue where he is. I go off his word that our life isn't just a sham to him.

On one side, if it had "only" been a PA - then I could have comforted myself..... ...with what? That he had betrayed me physically, risked my health, thrown away everything for some flesh?

On the other, if it had "only" been an EA - then I could have comforted myself with.... that he gave away the part of himself that I actually connected with? That it might continue long after he ceases contact?

There's no winning.

“It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” - Dumbledore

posts: 4131   ·   registered: Jun. 18th, 2014   ·   location: California
id 7549302
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hurdlestocross ( member #51840) posted at 7:48 PM on Friday, May 6th, 2016

Now that I've had experience with both, I see that they hurt in different ways. However, I do think the physical part crushes me a little more since we had only been with each other, and now that he has been physical with another woman (or women), that can never be taken back. I'm not sure if it's less hurtful for the people who were with other people before they got serious with their current partner.

Still, I think and talk about the emotional affair a lot more, because there are more details and unanswered questions. It was like a real relationship. The physical thing that I know about wasn't someone he had a connection with, and I don't think he ever saw her after that.

posts: 150   ·   registered: Feb. 16th, 2016
id 7549305
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Charlee ( member #50386) posted at 8:02 PM on Friday, May 6th, 2016

Hurdlestocross echoes my thoughts after dealing with EA turned into PA with the same person. Both have caused me different emotions, thoughts, and types of hurt. The EA totally disconnected my WH from me and it was obvious, he "wasn't with me" but the PA then changed his personality on top of it.

ME: BS, 67
HIM:62
MARRIED: 45 years
DDay: #1 9/19/15
Dday #2 2/28/18

posts: 688   ·   registered: Nov. 15th, 2015   ·   location: NE
id 7549322
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Parannonx ( member #52679) posted at 8:22 PM on Friday, May 6th, 2016

It's an interesting question, not in that one is worse than the other but in how different people view them. Personally I find an EA to be worse than a pure PA with no (or at least minimal) emotional connection, of course I suspect that most PA's started as EA's or more to say that most EA's graduate to PA's if time and proximity permit.

My reasoning is that sex is just a physical act, I've had sex with other people before (and frankly after we were married <swinging>) as had my wife. So the sex in and of itself isn't that awful a thing, don't get me wrong I'm not saying "oh yeah it was only sex that's ok" because it wasn't only sex, it was the disrespect of me our marriage our family and the deception that hurts the most.

That said it seems to me that an emotional attachment is more dangerous to the marriage, because it's the sort of thing that supplants the relationship between spouses with someone else. This is a situation that is far more likely to result in the cheater convincing themselves to leave the marriage and thus not even be interested in trying.

Because my wife didn't have an emotional connection with someone else it didn't take her very long to see what she had to lose after dday, thus while I got my fair share of TT I didn't have to deal with her pining over an AP or breaking NC.

To some extent intent also matters to me. The fact that she wasn't looking for an out from our relationship makes it easier to believe her when she says that she doesn't want to lose me.

Neither is great of course but in many ways the extent of the betrayal is less important than the ability to take that first step. After which it is mostly a matter of chance how things will go.

I would say that someone who was caught and came to their senses when they were only in a EA is lucky that they managed to nip things in the bud before it escalated.

Of course counterpoint for PA's being worse is that no one has ever gotten pregnant or caught an STD from an EA.

In the end though the infidelity is less about what was done but rather the decision to betray someone you claim to love in the first place regardless of the depths of depravity one eventually sinks to.

BS me 46
WW 48
DDay Oct 2015
End TT? May 2016
One unconsummated EA 2009-2010 with Coworker (only unconsummated because he got cold feet)
Multiple encounters for sex only with men met off internet.
Currently in R

posts: 267   ·   registered: Apr. 10th, 2016
id 7549333
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BlueIris ( member #47551) posted at 8:34 PM on Friday, May 6th, 2016

Unless you've experienced both, I think it would be hard to compare...and even then, your own experience may vary greatly from someone else's. Moreover, you could take the exact same scenario, and the exact same BS, and I'd imagine that an unremorseful WS vs a remorseful WS would ALSO impact healing. There are just too many variables.

Having said that, I will add that when DDay happened, that first twenty-four hours, I was made to believe that it was an entirely one-sided infatuation that my WH had for a lesbian OW. I truly never considered that there'd be anything more than that, and ...just knowing that he seemed obsessed with her and was thinking about her so much, was heartbreaking. The next evening, he indicated that there'd been some minor heavy petting, but still fully clothed. My gosh, he...he'd TOUCHED her? He...he did that? I did not sleep that entire night; I cried while looking at her Facebook page and ...could not fathom that the pain could be any worse.

The next day (day 3), he admitted to a little more - some clothing had come off, but that was all. Still no sex. On day 4, I discovered OW2 by looking at photos on his laptop while he was at work. Selfies she'd sent, both provocative and ...while not nude, certainly were not photos he'd have shown me or the kids, if you know what I mean.

That evening, he admitted that OW2 had come onto him (not really...it was planned and there was so much more - but he wouldn't admit that for another three days), and they tried to have sex but he couldn't get erect, and then he promised me that there had been no penetration. That night, reeling from all of this, I comforted myself by at least reminding myself that they hadn't actually HAD sex - hadn't completed the act. It wasn't much, but I clung to it as the only thing left - that at least ...our physical union was still sacred and that he had not been inside either of them.

Day 5 came with more bits and pieces discovered, but nothing substantive, and I told him that I hoped I knew everything - that I had to hold onto at least the belief that there was nothing else. He didn't eat that night, and went to bed early.

On the morning of day 6, he leaned over my shoulder, brushed my cheek and kissed me, and said that he had something he needed to tell me. And I knew. And my gosh, it was - and is still - devastating in a way that I cannot adequately articulate. And although I agree with hurdlestocross, for me, I still wish most of all that the physical boundary had not been crossed - that it was still just the two of us in our bed, so to speak. But no - there are four of us now, and of all the things about this hellish nightmare, that is the one thing that I wish had been preserved. You can take back words, or come out of the fog, but you can't unfuck an AP.

Making it worse over the next few weeks was his initial insistence that it was just "porn sex" that he'd sought with OW1, and learning that there had absolutely been a substantial EA component to both. And also learning that the relationship with OW2 hadn't just been a one-weekend thing - that he'd initiated contact with her (he knew she'd been a LTA AP for another MM in his office), and that it had occurred, mostly by texting and phone calls, for nearly eleven months...though he didn't agree to take it physical until about six months in.

I realize that that's my worst case scenario because that is our story. If our story had been different, then perhaps the EA might have been more devastating for me. After all, he discussed "our divorce" (that I did not know about) with both, and discussed plans to live with both (which would have required him to leave his kids and move to a different state, and he at least gave them the impression he was considering it), but neither were "soulmates" and there was no undying love sworn (just I love yous with OW1), nor did he vilify me (too much) (that he's admitted to - most texts were deleted and irretrievable). But still.

When I step back and look at this at a macro level, the mere fact that he INVITED someone else (x2!) into our marriage without telling me, knowing that they sought to destroy our family and that he was willing - WILLING! - to allow them to participate in it, is the absolute worst part of all. That's the betrayal - the deception and later, the TT to keep it hidden - which is why I think both EA and PA can hurt equally. But once it's happened? Once the breach has occurred? I'd have given anything to have at least the physical boundary intact. But you know, no one asked me.

[This message edited by BlueIris at 2:51 PM, May 6th (Friday)]

BW | Dday 2-20-2015 + TT for several weeks

"The truth will set you free but first it will piss you off."

posts: 1711   ·   registered: Apr. 15th, 2015   ·   location: State of Disbelief
id 7549351
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1Faith ( member #38975) posted at 8:44 PM on Friday, May 6th, 2016

As others have stated, IMO, I don't believe there is a "better" or "worse" type of betrayal. It is still betrayal.

And from my time on SI, it pains me to see folks post things like

"well it was only an EA"

or

"it was only a PA and he/she didn't care about them"

It minimizes the reality that the choice has been made to engage with another person without your consent. Period. They chose themselves and the AP over you. Maybe once, maybe over several years but they chose to cheat.

As a WS I understand, we want to be able to understand how this happened? What went wrong? Blame the AP, blame ourselves, blame childhood, etc.

But in the end it is the WS that chose to cheat. Chose to disregard their commitment to the relationship.

So IMO, there is no better or worse. It is all heartbreaking and the best we all can do is deal with it head on and pave a positive path forward.

[This message edited by 1Faith at 2:45 PM, May 6th (Friday)]

Sometimes my life feels like a test I didn't study for

posts: 4131   ·   registered: Apr. 12th, 2013
id 7549375
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Thissux ( member #45966) posted at 9:38 PM on Friday, May 6th, 2016

My wife was involved physically and emotionally with her ap.

One of the hardest things for me to process is that she asked me to get a vasectomy while she was already in an emotional affair. The physical affair BEGAN while we we waiting to "use" the vasectomy. (Swimmers were still active). This means that during the time she asked me for the vasectomy, she knew she didn't want to risk having a child with me but was willing to risk it with another man (and she was willing to risk her marriage, her children's future, her career, finances, and reputation....but she didn't want to risk bearing my child)

This may be the worst part of the affair for me. It's both physically and emotionally devastating. Both parts are equally painful.

Me: BH early 50's at Dday
Her: WW late 40s at Dday
DDay 7/4/2014
Affair with coworker

posts: 950   ·   registered: Dec. 14th, 2014
id 7549452
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Lark ( member #43773) posted at 9:40 PM on Friday, May 6th, 2016

Thissux - my husband did something similar. He pushed me to get an IUD. He used it as an excuse to not be physical at times.

Yet at just the thought of being able to meet up with OW, he was off buying condoms. That hurt

“It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” - Dumbledore

posts: 4131   ·   registered: Jun. 18th, 2014   ·   location: California
id 7549455
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ZenMumWalking ( member #25341) posted at 9:57 PM on Friday, May 6th, 2016

The worst kind of betrayal is the one happening to you.

Me (BS), Him (WH): late-50's
3 DS: 26, 25, 22
M: 30+ (19 1/2 at Dday)
Dday: Dec 2008
Wanted R, not gonna happen (in permanent S)
Used to be DeadMumWalking, doing better now

posts: 8533   ·   registered: Aug. 28th, 2009   ·   location: EU
id 7549477
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OneInTheSame ( member #49854) posted at 10:02 PM on Friday, May 6th, 2016

needs to love someone before she has sex with them

I got that too, for years and years my WW maintained this to be the case. But you can't have it both ways now, can you?

(I edit to correct typos)
I am the BS in a lesbian marriage. My WW's ex-girlfriend was the AP.
D-day of the 6 mo A was 10/04/15
We are doing okay, but by now I wanted it to be better

posts: 2535   ·   registered: Oct. 6th, 2015   ·   location: Pacific Northwest
id 7549482
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 Clearingthefog (original poster member #52579) posted at 11:36 PM on Friday, May 6th, 2016

Xx

[This message edited by Clearingthefog at 1:41 AM, May 30th (Monday)]

BH
I say what I mean and I mean what I say.
I'm just trying to navigate my way thru this nightmare. Support is appreciated.

posts: 88   ·   registered: Apr. 4th, 2016
id 7549542
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Scubachick ( member #39906) posted at 9:28 AM on Saturday, May 7th, 2016

Its the lies that broke me.

posts: 1825   ·   registered: Jul. 23rd, 2013
id 7549787
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sassylee ( member #45766) posted at 7:42 PM on Saturday, May 7th, 2016

I couldn't read all the responses as I was triggering.

I told my husband - you gave her your heart. I would've rather you'd given her your penis - you pee out of that...

Besides - my H wanted a PA with OW. if he had his way - it would've been a E/PA. Aren't many EA's just PA's waiting to happen?

My R(eformed)WH had a 5 month EA in 2012
In my 7th year of R
“LOVE is a commitment, not an emotion. It is a conscious act of a covenant of unconditional love. It is a mindset and a thought process.” - BigHeart2018’s Professor

posts: 11459   ·   registered: Nov. 29th, 2014   ·   location: 🇨🇦
id 7550101
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sassylee ( member #45766) posted at 7:47 PM on Saturday, May 7th, 2016

The worst kind of betrayal is the one happening to you.

Added this to the quote thread...

My R(eformed)WH had a 5 month EA in 2012
In my 7th year of R
“LOVE is a commitment, not an emotion. It is a conscious act of a covenant of unconditional love. It is a mindset and a thought process.” - BigHeart2018’s Professor

posts: 11459   ·   registered: Nov. 29th, 2014   ·   location: 🇨🇦
id 7550104
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 10:42 PM on Saturday, May 7th, 2016

The title of this post, written by you, asks a question that is essentially guaranteed to delve into better/worse.

Your opening post says that you find your W's EA more damaging, which most people will read to mean that in your opinion, an EA is 'worse'.

Now you say

I never asked which was worse, claimed, or indicated that one was better or worse than another.

Bro, What's going on with you?

[This message edited by sisoon at 4:43 PM, May 7th (Saturday)]

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 31356   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 7550196
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 Clearingthefog (original poster member #52579) posted at 7:10 PM on Monday, May 9th, 2016

Xx

[This message edited by Clearingthefog at 1:40 AM, May 30th (Monday)]

BH
I say what I mean and I mean what I say.
I'm just trying to navigate my way thru this nightmare. Support is appreciated.

posts: 88   ·   registered: Apr. 4th, 2016
id 7551678
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 7:59 PM on Monday, May 9th, 2016

What? You mean you can sleep?

I think we (BSes) all experience the thoughts you wrote about.

I also think your best approach is to consider those thoughts (and a lot of other thoughts about being betrayed) as signals that you're feeling something - grief, anger, fear, shame - and then just feel the feeling. That gets the feeling out of your body.

Other signals include thoughts like:

How could she do this to me?

How can I ever find the strength to recover?

Woe is me.

No one has experience pain this bad.

...thoughts of revenge.

All of these are signals that you're feeling something very uncomfortable. Welcome the emotions - remember, you have the feelings. They don't have you.

I imagine you'll be afraid that the feelings are so immense that you'll never process them all. All I can say is that's why it takes 2-5 years to recover. Keep processing the raw emotions (i.e., feel them and let them go, and eventually they'll become manageable. Guaranteed - well, almost.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 31356   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 7551744
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