SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

((((onlytime))))

Sometimes I think it is because I have a strong personality, one that has zero fear of confrontation. I know for certain that I would have immediately blasted the person and reported them. I am sure it helped that I am one of those people that tend to have a "resting Bitch face" that probably screams, "don't f8&K with me"

I think this is an awesome attitude to have, RidingHealingRd! Keep being your best you. I hope that it will clearly communicate your boundaries to others and keep you as safe as possible.

I hope you will never suffer this trauma. If you did, I would say this - you did nothing wrong. It's not your fault it happened. Keep your kickbutt attitude, and keep being your best you. What happened is completely on them.

So in summary - having zero fear of confrontation is wonderful. Being prepared to blast anyone who crosses your boundaries inappropriately is great. Having a strong personality is an awesome way to be. AND... if this kind of trauma strikes, remember that it's not your fault. No matter your personality, no matter any of our personalities, it's not our faults.

(((((hugs to everyone here))))) <~~ I'm including ALL members in this. I know we don't all see eye to eye on the current event going on, but I know we're all in pain from different situations and all doing our best to survive it. In that, we are in the same boat.

for any man who is Ever perpetrated this against you, I apologize on their behalf. Their selfishness and total disregard for another human cannot ever be excused. It makes me sick to think that these are people that represent my gender.

Trying2copeinMD - Thank you for your compassion and for reading our stories, and for your empathetic response. That means a lot.

You don't have to apologize for them. They are not cut from your cloth. They don't represent your gender, or mine for the female offenders out there. They represent the worst humanity has to offer.

You, with your thoughtfulness, and your compassion and support for us and our struggles - you represent your gender.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 5:52 PM, October 4th (Thursday)]

I was in my first year university. I lived in a coed dorm. Everyone went home for Halloween since it fell on a weekend. My roommate was a foreign student from the Caribbean and she went to Toronto to party with others from the Bahamas. I stayed at the U because I couldn’t stand my step monster and her demon spawn back home.

Two doors down, another student stayed behind as well. He was friends with my roommate as they were from the same island. He came to my room (everyone had an open door policy - doors were rarely closed unless you were sleeping). I said Hi and reminded him that my roommate was in Toronto (he wasn’t my friend - just hers). I turned back to hanging up my clothes and I heard the door shut. I looked and he was locking my door.

I said “What are you doing?” And he kissed me. He was huge - 6’5 at least. I thought he was just being forward so I told him “Sorry, I don’t like you like that.” Then he threw me down on my roommates bed. I was wrestling with him to get him off me. I still thought he was just not getting that it wasn’t happening - some guys think you’re just playing hard to get so I figured this one just needed more convincing. Rape never entered my mind - until he slapped me across the face and said “Shut up bitch”. That’s when I knew I was in trouble.

Two things saved me. He was on top of me, holding me down with one hand and pulled down my pants with the other - but then kept pausing to try and put on a condom! So every time he paused - I pulled my pants back up - he’d pull them down again then fiddle with the condom and I would pull them back up again. I kept trying to talk him out of it “You aren’t into me - you don’t want to do this - stop!” I was loud though and he told me to be quiet or my bathroom mates would hear (each dorm room was connected by an adjoining bathroom) I almost corrected him “They went home for Hallowe’en” but luckily realized this was my out - I started screaming their names and he got scared and left.

I called my dad and ended up spending Halloween with my stepmonsters anyway. My dad asked me what I wanted to do - I was a party girl my first year - I didn’t think I had a shot at anyone believing me. I just told my dad I was fine and didn’t want the stigma so he bought me a baseball bat to keep in my room.

I never told anyone. But 2 1/2 months later - exam week - I walked out of my room and saw him walking around the floor with my friend in his arms - she was a tiny Eurasian girl - she wouldn’t have had a chance. She was laughing and trying to get him to put her down - but she was 90 lbs soaking wet. I walked over to him and I screamed “Put her the fuck down right now!” He did and then went back to his room but I caught up with him and told him “if I ever see you near her again - I’ll tell everyone about Halloween and how you tried to rape me! I won’t stop until you’re fucking deported.” He kept shushing me since there were people around but I kept screaming “Tell me you fucking understand me!” and “DE-POR-TED!!!” He finally said he got it and went into his room.

He went home to Nassau after exams and never returned for second semester. I like to think it was my doing but who knows. But I never reported him...like I said - I had a fun girl rep and didn’t want to be labelled - I thought for sure my RA’s wouldn’t believe me...he was quiet and studious - and I still believe I wouldn’t have been believed. My friends that overheard my threats believed me though and that was validating for me.

I haven’t followed the media circus around the American events but have read the tidbits shared on FB. I don’t know enough to pass judgement - but what I kept reading was people saying “Why didn’t she tell back then?” I haven’t talked about my incident since the year it happened back in 1988. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

ETA - sadly, this is too often status quo. It’s part of being female. We watch our drinks in bars, we travel in pairs, we hold our keys through our fingers when walking to our car, we check the back seat before getting in. We don’t park next to vans, we hold our cell phones in our hands ready to dial 911, we lock our doors at home and in vehicles. We prepare for the “eventuality” with other females by sharing what we can do (bite his dick, gouge his eyes, scream fire). It’s what we do.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:34 PM, October 5th (Friday)]

I don’t know if this has been shared here yet but I found it meaningful when I read it on FB:

Men ask why women are so pissed off. Even guys with wives and daughters. Jackson Katz, a prominent social researcher, illustrates why. He's done it with hundreds of audiences:

"I draw a line down the middle of a chalkboard, sketching a male symbol on one side and a female symbol on the other.

Then I ask just the men: What steps do you guys take, on a daily basis, to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? At first there is a kind of awkward silence as the men try to figure out if they've been asked a trick question. The silence gives way to a smattering of nervous laughter. Occasionally, a young a guy will raise his hand and say, 'I stay out of prison.' This is typically followed by another moment of laughter, before someone finally raises his hand and soberly states, 'Nothing. I don't think about it.'

Then I ask the women the same question. What steps do you take on a daily basis to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? Women throughout the audience immediately start raising their hands. As the men sit in stunned silence, the women recount safety precautions they take as part of their daily routine.

Hold my keys as a potential weapon. Look in the back seat of the car before getting in. Carry a cell phone. Don't go jogging at night. Lock all the windows when I sleep, even on hot summer nights. Be careful not to drink too much. Don't put my drink down and come back to it; make sure I see it being poured. Own a big dog. Carry Mace or pepper spray. Have an unlisted phone number. Have a man's voice on my answering machine. Park in well-lit areas. Don't use parking garages. Don't get on elevators with only one man, or with a group of men. Vary my route home from work. Watch what I wear. Don't use highway rest areas. Use a home alarm system. Don't wear headphones when jogging. Avoid forests or wooded areas, even in the daytime. Don't take a first-floor apartment. Go out in groups. Own a firearm. Meet men on first dates in public places. Make sure to have a car or cab fare. Don't make eye contact with men on the street. Make assertive eye contact with men on the street.”

― Jackson Katz, The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help

(The first man to minor in women's studies at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst, holds a master's degree from the Harvard Graduate School of Education, and a Ph.D. in cultural studies and education from UCLA.)

I mentioned this earlier and I know I'm "preaching to the choir" here, but I keep wondering what it is that people think justifies violating someone's will, mind, privacy, and body?

What do people mean by saying that "you must have done something to encourage it"?

I have had girls tease me and even EXPOSE themselves to me before! And several others make their genuinely "encouraging" intentions VERY CLEAR. Would that behavior make it okay in some people's minds for me to ACTUALLY mistreat or rape or abuse or violate them in some way??

I have cats at home that like to tease the dogs who are restrained by staying JUST outside the lines of reach much like a Tom and Jerry cartoon might depict, but I just don't SEE this happening between girls and guys in my experience and even if it DID...people aren't technically ANIMALS!

We know if someone isn't willing or interested in something. Self control or the lack thereof isn't ANOTHER PERSON'S RESPONSIBILITY. What could a woman do to "encourage" being sexually assaulted in some way????

What can possibly justify such a thing?

The way I was raised, a lady is to be respected and defended and cherished and thought highly of. Like a lovely baby or a flower/rose or like fine crystal and a masterpiece painting. Even if a woman went around nude...would THAT excuse rape? She isn't butchering anyone's soul permanently the way a rapist does, even if I AM against public nudity!

Even a prostitute is a person with RIGHTS and laws protecting them as members of society and citizens. Aren't THEY "encouraging" sex to occur? Should their rights be revoked? What about a female porn star or playboy model? Should there just be an "open season" on them wherever they shop for groceries and go to the shopping mall? Should we just consider all women at beaches and swimming pools to be "fair game" for exploitation because they aren't wearing professional business attire or church clothes?

Are we saying that the average woman should have less benefit of the doubt and less rights and legal and social respect and consideration than a career/professional seductress?

Isn't it pretty freaking obvious if a girl is happy or upset after a sexual encounter?? How can anyone wonder about whether or not it was consensual? Maybe I'm just too naive or inexperienced here in the world of partying and/or recreational sex, but I can't imagine telling an obvious underdog that's been assaulted that she must have "encouraged" the horror to occur...(I'm talking about when it's just happened, btw, not commenting here on the current events per se).

I understand that false accusations happen...but why wouldn't anyone immediately take the most conservative approach and assume that the accuser is telling the truth instead of a lie for protection and honor's sake? Are the statistics of lying about such matters high enough to warrant the immediate assumption that the "fire alarm" or cry of "WOLF!" is false?

Wouldn't such a person that makes false accusations be very quickly discredited typically after the matter is properly and IMMEDIATELY dealt with?

What kind of society are we building that assumes guilt on the part of those who are the most vulnerable and assumes innocence only of the strong or the powerful?

[This message edited by Cephastion at 8:22 PM, October 5th (Friday)]

Well ladies, looks like we might lose another round. But 'do not go silent into the night' and

KEEP FIGHTING.

Love your great attitude and great advice, Jeaniegirl. Thank you.

I have so much I want to share, but I still don't seem to be able to put it into words.

Sister, I know what you are feeling.

Sadly, sometimes it's women themselves who help to enable the abusers and dismiss the abuse of women. The woman who spoke yesterday for the world to hear and she proclaimed the goodness of the abuser so much that I thought she had found a new baby jesus left on her door step.

But Sister, times are changing. We have younger, healthier and more energetic young women to step up now, more than ever before. There is hope but still a long way to go.

The women of Colorado used to have a movement there when rape victims decided to take a stand. I was there once for a march at night. Silent women walking strong together arm in arm. The name of the march was "Take Back the Night" and it moved me to tears to be there and see those brave women.

I will share with you my favorite saying that I literally live by:

"Sometimes when the fights begin, I think I'll let the dragons win. But then again? ... Perhaps I WON'T! Because they're dragons ... and I don't!"

Hugs to you ((((((SMS))))))

[This message edited by Jeaniegirl at 6:51 PM, October 6th (Saturday)]

(((((SMS)))))

(((((all the survivors)))))

I wish I could be surprised, but I'm not. There are so many people in our society who do not understand the nature of sexual assault, and that ignorance is part of what enables it to keep happening without consequences. Of course, there are others who benefit from that ignorance and thus encourage it, to avoid being discovered as our predators.

For me, the perplexing thing is that people are surprised that it takes so long for survivors to come forward. I hear folks saying "why are they all coming out of the woodwork now?" Maybe because before, it wasn't safe enough to do so. Maybe because the survivors were more at risk then for being prosecuted than their assailants. Some police departments consider it more of a priority to go after women guilty of "false accusations" (which are sometimes truths that just can't be proven) than perpetrators of sexual assault. I wonder about their priorities! Why is sexual assault a more acceptable pain to society?! I hear folks say, better to let 10 guilty men go free than imprison 1 innocent one. So, it's OK for ten women or men to be raped and abused, so long as one innocent person isn't imprisoned? When this is the reality, and when people actually speaking about what happened to them (like ZMW said, a form of self-defense) is met by shouting down and accusations of a lynch mob mentality... Then it's obvious to me that we're still not ready to keep victims of sexual assault safe or address the problem in any meaningful way.

The one thing in this that gives me hope is this: as the survivors speak out, I'm finding men and women who haven't gone through this horror are listening empathetically, as evidenced here on this thread. That gives me hope. More importantly, it makes me feel that there are still safe people in this world who won't stand by and let the bad things happen. Thank you to those people.

Like Jeaniegirl said, do not go silent!

I guess, a thought experiment: considering what's happening now, the place we're at in society. There's #MeToo, which is supposed to be about helping survivors talk about what happened to them. And then there are loud detractors, saying - 'false accusations', 'why are they coming out now?', 'there's a lynch mob mentality', 'they're just trying to ruin men's lives', etc.

And consider that, aside from Cosby, not a single high-profile man has been put in jail. All the others, in fact, continue to have jobs, job offers, and money. They suffered no visible consequences. The ones who were released from their current employments quickly found others.

And these all were cases where there wasn't one victim's voice speaking up, there were several! Several victims, and still no justice being done.

If a person was a recent survivor of an assault, here and now, would people expect her or him to speak up? What kind of support would this new survivor receive? Would the police honestly take the survivor seriously, do you think? Are there any stories about survivors whose assailants weren't high profile men who have recently been taken seriously, or at least more seriously than they would have before #MeToo? I haven't heard of any. Have you?

Would anyone be surprised if the survivor chose not to report?

And, would anyone be surprised if we only heard about it 30 years from now, the next time survivors feel even slightly safe enough to bring it up?

I don't ask these questions to the survivors here; we already know this intimately well. I ask these questions to the people who still don't understand.

((((SMS)))) I'm so sorry.

Another thing about #MeToo - there are some men (an ignorant minority I hope) that seem to think it's about making all men out to be rapists. WTF????? It's about saying 'I understand, you are not alone, and I am not alone either - it happened to me too'. How does that get twisted into 'all men are rapists'??

It's a good thing though that there ARE so many men who are listening with an open mind. Who had no idea of this happening, and the scale of it. Sadly, there are still so many who just. don't. get. it. And many of those are in positions of power, making change that much more difficult.

silverhopes, ZMW, Jeaniegirl, everyone, I can't name you all, you have all shared so eloquently. Many of the men spoke so eloquently. I so appreciate the men who supported and heard us, who defended and tried to help others understand better. To all the women, all these amazing sisters, my fellow survivors, my sisters coming to the realization that what they have experienced is. not. normal., my sisters who have been able to live unscathed, just thank you all for sharing and being so open and vulnerable. You all are very brave, powerful and strong, even though we often feel weak and raw. Still. After years.

To those that couldn't post their story because they didn't feel safe here, to onlytime that deleted her story as she grew to feel it was unsafe here, that breaks my heart. I am so sorry. You are, sadly and unfortunately, an example of why we don't tell. We keep silent. We keep the status quo. It is our job, it is our place. Consequences for us regardless. Salt will be rubbed in wounds. This is the message we get. Over and over again.

Fuck...some on this board have called me a "radical" feminist, whateverthefuck that is supposed to mean. But, if "radical" does mean that I would want females, and males too, to be able to grow up and live without having to deal with sexual abuse, assaults, molestations, etc. etc. then I am a fucking radical feminist. Honestly, I don't feel it is too much to ask. I am entering my 6th decade and I had thought that women have come so far. But, I am now seeing and realizing, that as far as we have come, we still have the exact same long journey ahead of us. I fear that I will die before this truly changes. Maybe for our great great granddaughters and grandsons it will be different.

As so many pointed out, this thread is a perfect example for why we don't tell. This popped up on my FB newsfeed (along with the one that ZMW shared by Jackson Katz). I did not post this to anyone on this thread, I am not pointing fingers at anyone. However, it may give some more insight about why many victims/survivors keep silent. These are not my words, but they did resonate with me.

"Let’s make one thing clear as random people have the audacity to ask why it took so long for a person to report a sex crime: rape is a silencing tool. It is a tool and a weapon used to keep the victim small, stunned, and silent. Around the world rape is referenced as a weapon of war, and it is used to destroy another person and exert unquestioned power. Silence is why men spike women’s drinks, and ferret drugged women away in back rooms to rape them. Silence is why priests lure boys with special attention, and tell them the rape is their little secret. Silence is why people are kidnapped and hidden away for years as sex slaves. And silence is why older predatory people are drawn to children, because there is no point of reference, there is no capacity to fight back.... no voice, or words for rape. So if a weapon, used with the intent to keep someone small, stunned, and silent does just that, who the hell are you to criticize them for responding as was intended? It takes years ... it takes decades ... it can take a lifetime to unravel the effects of sexual abuse and sexual violence. It is remarkable when a person DOES find their voice, and the strength to step into the light — even the brutally hot, bright spotlight of the public eye. Instead of questioning their timing, questioning their story, questioning what they did to make rape happen, try to listen, because their insight and experience may save one more person, or a hundred more people, or a thousand more people, or maybe even you, from having to endure what they have carried for years. Telling someone they should not have been silenced by a deliberate act of violence intended to silence them is like criticising someone for falling asleep under general anesthesia. It’s ridiculous and vicious. Speaking out is the hardest thing a survivor will ever do. Instead of being judgmental, loud, and cruel, try something new: be kind, listen, and be silent."

Peace, Love and Serenity to all!

edited: to fix word

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 7:22 PM, October 6th (Saturday)]

Thank you so much for posting this, Sister, and starting this whole conversation. The paper is delivered every morning and I always read it early. Couldn't read it today; just did the puzzle. But every thing here has been worthwhile. Thank you.

Whoever wrote that absolutely nailed it. Thanks Sister.

I some of you who may have have followed some of my posts or my profile hear on SI might recall it took me over to decades to really face the horror of my wife's adultery and abandonment of me when I was 22 and in the midst of great trauma and difficulty at the time.

Additionally I am only just now in the last 2 or 3 years opening up more about the fact that I was molested almost 4 decades ago.

This website came into existence partly because of the shame that men face being victims of adultery from what I understand.

I also know the shame of being a victim.

I guess I just want to say that if I as a man and his forties can take two decades to really exposed the issues of my own hidden shame and difficulty with being traumatized as a man by my wife and her lovers... and if I can take double that amount of time long to really open up about being molested as a child... Then this is a COMPOUND issue and that many men can have some measure of empathy for even if it's not exactly the same.

Mangled heart and Deeply Scared respected the need for men as well as women to speak up about infidelity and what causes it as well as how to get out of that horror.

How much MORE is true with rape and molestation and all manner and forms of sexual assault.

Honestly I have avoided looking into things like the #MeToo thing. I even avoid movies that feature rape or sexual assault in them, because ask I can think about is avenging the victims personally or rescuing them with my own hands and " arms" and resources, even though they might be fictional.

But all my Texan cowboy mindset aside...this Texan understands the silence. I was largely silent MYSELF with my own too-close-for-comfort situations that I've had to reckon with on my own life and times.

(((((((Cephastion)))))) I am glad to see you posting again, I noticed you weren't for awhile and I missed you.

((((Cephastion)))) I'm so sorry

This is such a wide-spread problem, made even more so because it silences us, as said above.

Some people say that having had this experience means that we are incapable of rational, reasonable thought and that we are only able to react out of emotion. Rather, I think that we are capable of an even larger degree of rationality and reason because we have a wider range of experience upon which to draw. We don't automatically hold victims to a higher standard than accused abusers - we listen to them. We understand them. We are them.

Whichever side you fall on the political fence, whether or not you think an employee's prospects of a job promotion should depend on something they did in high school or college, it should be clear how far we have NOT come in making the world safe for victims to come forward in telling our stories.

I wonder how long we must be satisfied with baby steps.

(((((Ceph)))))

I'm inclined to agree, ZMW. I think we're being perfectly rational.

What we have seen is this:

When a person comes forward with their report of sexual assault, in addition to the usual labels like 'alleged', s/he will also almost immediately have the term 'false accusations' bandied about.

Goodness forbid anyone supports her/him, because then the supporters will be called a lynch mob. Isn't that a logical fallacy? Ad hominem or poisoning the well or something like that? Since when does supporting someone, taking a person seriously when they say, "This person harmed me", equate to being a lynch mob? Since when does saying, "I don't want to rugsweep this, I want there to be a process of investigation because this is a matter of someone's safety being at risk," translate to being a lynch mob? (As you can tell, that term incenses me.) Reality: it doesn't. It doesn't make anyone a lynch mob. It makes them a concerned citizen.

'Due process' is a term only for the accused, apparently, rather than for the accuser. Since a lack of due process will automatically mean that the accused will be... what? Lynched/murdered? Imprisoned? Not get a job promotion? Disapproved of by a lot of people?

...When actually, more often than not, when there's a lack of due process, it's the accuser who winds up paying the price. Through receiving death threats. Through being publicly mocked for their testimony. Through being ignored during the investigation despite having information to give to the authorities. Through having everyone else who had information that could have corroborated her/him being ignored by the authorities too, even when said sources of information were trying very hard to give their tips to the authorities.

That's not due process.

And again, as is the pattern, the accuser was not taken seriously by the people who had the power in that situation. That doesn't mean that the accused was proven innocent. After all, the idea is "innocent until proven guilty" - that means that the accused doesn't set out to prove their innocence, it's already assumed. What that means is, the investigation wasn't deep enough to investigate the claims. So they didn't really look to see if the accused was guilty. I'd say, they didn't look because they didn't want to know.

I think many of us here have had a similar experience.

When a truth is not thoroughly investigated, more often than not in the court of law, the accused goes free. "Guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt" still has meaning and power. When it comes to cases of sexual assault, they aren't examined thoroughly. They aren't taken seriously in a court of law. If they were, there wouldn't be such a rape kit backlog, and the police wouldn't dismiss so many survivors. More often than not, it's not unlawful imprisonment that's the outcome: more often than not, it's the case being totally dropped. We hear about exceptions rather than common experiences, but the stats back this up.

And this recent thing, the current event, wasn't even about imprisonment. It was about a job interview. Unfortunately, it was also a very public statement about how we treat survivors of sexual assault.

So, seeing that process unfold, I think it's pretty damned obvious why more survivors don't report.

(My post was not meant to include any politics. That's why I tried to keep it as vague as possible. To me, this is about the process of investigating sexual assault reports and how we treat survivors.)

I've been thinking about the Brock Turner case, and how amazing it was that he got a jail sentence at all. I realized there were two things that made that case go through, that most sexual assault victims aren't lucky enough to have:

1) The assault was stopped while it was in progress. Usually assaults don't have witnesses, and by pure luck, this one did, and the two people who saw it going on stepped in and stopped it. They were Good Samaritans. That's the first thing.

2) The second thing is, the two Good Samaritans who stopped the assault were men. I honestly believe that society still takes men's voices more seriously than women's. Because they were men, I think they lent strength to the survivor's case against Brock Turner.

I hope more men will be like those two.

And even though Brock Turner got jail time, it was a lenient sentence. 6 months, when he could have gotten 14 years. Why? Because the judge didn't want jail to have a detrimental effect on Brock Turner. From a survivor's perspective, it sounds like the judge was more concerned about Turner's well-being than the survivor's.

And, he served only half of his time. He was out in three months. So, how is a survivor supposed to feel safe again?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 2:59 PM, October 8th (Monday)]

And this recent thing, the current event, wasn't even about imprisonment. It was about a job interview.

Exactly. The legal standard of 'guilty beyond a reasonable doubt' does not even apply here. That standard is used to protect people accused of crimes from being unreasonably deprived of their liberty by the state.

Here, there was no threat of a criminal charge (statute of limitations). So maybe a more reasonable standard is the one for a civil suit - preponderance of the evidence, or more likely than not.

And it seems to me that with the great difficulty of making the accusation/telling our story in the first place and the low rate of false accusations (as opposed to a high rate of TRUE assaults that never even get reported), that victims should be believed rather than silenced and re-victimized, all in the name of 'not ruining someone's good reputation'. Well if that reputation is undeserved, why shouldn't it be exposed and 'ruined'? Isn't that the fair and just thing to do?

'Due process of law' applies to the case where someone risks being deprived of life, liberty or property by the state. Yes, we know what due process is and what it is for. Again, completely irrelevant for a job interview. Go check the Constitution if this concept is unclear.

[This message edited by ZenMumWalking at 3:15 PM, October 8th (Monday)]