SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Even if it were more than just a kiss or make out session as per 8th Grade instruction manual, she was in an affair, even if only EA. That likely would have progressed had you not intervened in a timely and firm manner. Right now you don't know what's true and what isn't.

Is she starting to show remorse -- realizing her behavior seriously endangered the marriage and was wholly disrespectful to you? That's what to look for in her behavior. Openness, apologies, no lies, no contact. Accepting that you will be investigating.

Whether you can R is, of course, up to you. And you won't know tomorrow or next week or next month.

Regret for her loss of what might have been can cause tears and apparently contrite behavior. Regret is all about how she feels. Remorse is about how she feels and how you feel, and her empathy for your feelings.

I understand the concern about how far this A went as she's adamantly denied anything other than a kiss. If she lied about that, the bar got WAY higher for R. Maybe too high -- that's up to you.

But, you may plan for two events: she's truthful about that and remorse is shown. Or, she's lying again and there is no remorse. I suppose she could be truthful and show no remorse, but that's a serious problem for the M, too.

Don't make her guess what you insist she do if she's interested in the marriage and in you. Let her know just like you've done with other "demands" and let her know the consequences in advance.

Counseling? Why does she wander? IC for that, I suspect. What can be improved in marriage from both sides? MC once her head is screwed on straight. Or at least reasonably straight.

[This message edited by Schadenfreude at 4:12 PM, May 29th (Thursday)]

I'm still pushing the "just a kiss", because I'm with the majority of you with the thinking that it had to be more. It just had to be.

It could be an emotional affair (EA). From what I've read on here, they can be just as disturbing as an actual PA.

If this is something you do need cleared up, you should have her take a polygraph. Though if you dont trust those 100%, that could make things worse.

If you believe her friends that were with her and that nothing else happened, that should be fine for now. Unless something else ever shows up.

As for her work phone, there is no way to trust her, but I would guess her company would not like personal phone calls to and from Canada.

Could she hide phone calls like that and say they were for business. Is this OM in the same field of work as your wife?

IU Hoosier

I have to add this to what the last few guys have said, and I know how much you have been through but I think you are leaving some real loopholes that could bite you.

(1) Assuming she is telling you the truth about that he does not have her work phone, and by the way if he calls her her company does not get billed, so that is why I do not believe her on that one. Not talking about company cell phone but the land line. He might not be able to text or sext but all she has to do is answer the phone and he gets the bill and they can talk.

(2) If #1 is true, why are you still allowing her to walk around with a cell phone that he knows the number to. I thirty second call can get that phone number changed to where he does not know it unless one of her girlfriends or she gives it to him.

(3) You got lucky last Friday on the e mail. Do you really think that is the first and only one that she sent him since the original NC that she violated. And why is her personal e mail address or FB the same?? You can get copies of every e mail from that address that she sent for weeks prior to going to Mexico and every text that was sent without a lot of difficulty but for some reason you have not done that.

If she is new to this shitty lifestyle, the more she knows you are digging the more likely she is to panic and just confess and tell you the truth from start to finish. You are NEVER going to get to the bottom of this without a polograph unless you pull out all the technology steps humanly possible because she is still in "keep denying" mode. I was very glad to see that you finally have bought into that this could not have been over some snuggling and a good bye kiss, knowing that her buddy banged the other guy.

It has now been a few days since the cry fest and you say there is some improvement. Well, IMO, some improvement means she is still hanging on to this other guy. If you read other reactions from other waywards who really want to R and get forgiveness, they are spending every moment and every thought trying to help BS heal, and no one is seeing that here from what you are posting.

She is asking you how you are doing. Well, while she was sexting him and maybe meeting him after she got back, she was telling you how excited she was to be coming home to see you.

One of the worst thing that can happen to a BS, and a lot of the people advising you know, is to think you are in R and get blindsided again by the same A. If she is not bending over backwards 24/7 to save your marriage, she is just laying low hoping you will ease off.

At least making it harder for this guy to get to her by doing the things i said on the communication devices. Quite frankly, a remorseful wayward would welcome that as others have and will tell you.

[This message edited by Badhurt at 6:47 PM, May 29th (Thursday)]

I guess what I wonder is even if she had just a kiss, was the entire point of going to Mexico to cheat.

There is something in the description of her - detached, passive - that makes me think the intent to cheat existed before she actually met the guy.

This is just a guess - but something in her behavior just doesn't add up. She acts like she has been in an affair for years.

FWIW

What about this toxic friend of hers that's in a open marriage? Did she know these Canadians before the trip? How far are they from her?

My guess is that the toxic friend needed an excuse to meet up with one of her fuck buddies in Mexico. Enter your WW....the "wing woman".

Something is not right. Her story & her present behavior do not fit together.

I think it went underground. Keep looking for a burner phone---the ringer is probably turned off so listen for a faint buzzing sound in an unusual place. One member here heard it in the crawlspace of her house.

i don't know. I do agree it seems weird that she's acting so passively. Normally when someone throws down D papers the other party freaks out and starts working very hard. Her passive behavior is strange.

Granted, I'm only going by what you write, but from what you've written something isn't quite right. Even if it was just a kiss, why would she try so hard to stay in contact, particularly as she has to see how upset you are.

I guess in this situation I would force a polygraph. Say that you want to believe her, but given the recent lies it's just tearing you up. You want to have proof that she's telling the truth. she really has no grounds to object because you've caught her lying. You have a reason to want to believe her. A lot of truth appears just before the polygraph appointment. They try to bluff their way up until the last second.

also, have her send an NC letter. I can't remember if she already sent one. If she did, and then broke it with the email, well.... she really has no excuse to refuse a polygraph. Because now she's overtly lying.

I don't believe this is a lost cause though. Hang in there. I think you can save her if you want to.

I wanted to add, I'm sorry you're going through this. it's horrifying to experience. That being said, if your WW pulls her head out of her ass, I think you can have a different, but perhaps just as good marriage going forward. This will be an experience. But you both can learn from this and heal. But she really needs to pull her head out soon.

[This message edited by mike7 at 11:02 PM, May 29th (Thursday)]

I really don't think this was something that was going on before this trip. I would have noticed the phone bill, her behavior changing, etc. all the stuff that have her up after the trip

Hoosier,

Don't be convinced that you would have known if something was going on longer. I hope you're right but there are thousands of examples on this site where the BS was totally blown away by the discovery with no obvious signs whatsoever before d-day.

My exWW was involved for 2-3 months with her boss. I had no clue whatsoever before d-day. If anything, I was the hppiest I had ever been.

Please be open minded. As a former BS myself I didn't want to believe the worst. She told me what I wanted to hear until I couldn't pretend any longer. She has 'prior' for being WS. I would be my left testicle that she HAS slept with him.

IU Hoosier

Read the "no fog for WS" thread and what the BS had him do to stop communication. He gladly did it, has given complete transparency gladly so they have some chance at R. What has a lot of posters really concerned on your situation is that she has not only lied to you but seems to be just laying low and just letting you stew and drive yourself nuts trying to keep track of her. She should be begging you to at with her. Hyatt is why we think she is still communicating with him. The cry test lasted one night and you report a little improvement.

Hardly sounds like you forgiving her is the thing occupying her every yhought

IU Hoosier

I am sure I speak for all the people following this thread from the beginning in hoping that this week end you are getting some answers and that it has proved to be better than last week end when you discovered that she had lied to you about NC and you were forced to give her the D papers> Below you will find only part of a GREAT post on the JFO forum that really applies to you right now. I suggest you read the entire post when you have time but read below:

8. If you choose to stay, accept that there is significant risk.

Realize there is significant risk involved in staying with your WS. Take time to really look at posts/threads/profiles, and you’ll see this. You will see over and over how many people had a D-day, stayed, and were confronted with another D-day…and another. You will see over and over how many people thought the A was over, only to discover WS was still seeing the OP. You will see over and over BS who want so much to reconcile but have a WS who won’t tell the truth, isn’t remorseful, won’t cut ties with the OP, or make any other needed repairs to the relationship. You will see over and over BS who are waiting on the sidelines as their WS are with their OP, hoping fervently that their WS will come back, only to be served divorce papers.

That’s not to say that staying is a doomed proposition. You will see many BS here who have reconciled with their WS and have rebuilt their marriages. They say they’re happy and healthy together. While it will be hard at times to believe that this is anything but a fairy tale, it is possible. In fact, this is the dream that keeps many BS with their WS. However, even in matters of the heart, you’ve got to use your head. When do the risks outweigh the potential benefits when it comes to staying with the WS?

* Will your WS do whatever you need to rebuild trust? This may include accounting for his/her whereabouts at all times and giving you computer and phone access. If your WS balks and says he/she is entitled to privacy, the risks are high.

* Will your WS permanently cut all contact with the OP? This may include writing a NC letter or calling the OP in front of you to make it clear there will be NC. If your WS refuses to do this or says the OP is now just a “friend,” the risks are high.

* Will the WS answer all your questions completely and honestly (and repeatedly if necessary)? Some WS may feel talking about the A may hurt more than help you. If you explain that this is something you need and the WS still won’t give you the truth, the risks are high. If you think your WS has given you the whole truth only to learn that what you were told is a lie, the risks are high.

* Does the WS show deep and genuine remorse? Only you know what this looks and feels like for your spouse. But if you don’t see or sense this from the WS, the risks are high.

* Does the WS take full responsibility for the A? If your WS blames you, whether fully or even partially, the risks are high.

* Does your WS show you compassion for what you’re going through? This includes being patient with your process—and it will be a long process. If your WS wonders when you’re going to “get over it,” the risks are high.

* Is the WS willing to examine himself/herself to see how he/she made the choices that were made so the same choices aren’t repeated? This may include IC or MC. If the WS isn’t willing to do this, the risks are high.

These above factors are related to reconciling after the A. However, you need to also realize that whatever issues your M had prior to the A are still there. Both of you have to be willing to take responsibility for the state of the M before the A and be willing to work on that. Does your WS accept this, and is your WS willing to do the work? Are YOU willing to do the work? If not, the risks are high. I’ve seen BS who say that the M was in bad shape before the A because the other spouse was emotionally stunted/a selfish a$$hole, so how is the BS responsible for the pre-A M? If this is your situation, realize you stayed in the M and put up with that treatment. You have to change the status quo and make it clear that you are a person of worth who does not accept disrespect.

If you examine the people with SUCCESSFUL R stories (there are PLENTY of false R examples), you will find that all of the above need to be in place. What if they aren’t in place? It’s still your choice, but understand that if you stay, the potential for further heartbreak is high. If your WS gives you clear signs that he/she cannot be trusted or cannot be the spouse you need and you still stay, you must accept some responsibility for putting yourself in that position if things turn out badly.

The reason this is important is that I believe all of those on the board who have managed to get through this have gotten this, and based on what you have posted, you have NONE of it from your wife.

(1) What has she offered to do to help you rebuild trust?? So far, all she has said is she is sorry. Of course she is, she got caught, TWICE now .

(2) She sent one NC e mail to the POSOM and promptly broke her word, and no one thinks the one e mail you caught was the only one. You stated you were tempted to call this guy at one point. But you have NOT stated that she offered to contact him again with you on the phone to tell him it was over. So why should he think it is over?

(3) She has NOT ANSWERED YOU QUESTIONS completely and honestly. She has NOT OFFERED to give you a timeline of what occurred from the moment this trip was planned. You and no one else believes that in two evenings and a few texts that she could be so willing to not love you or even state that.

(4) You have access to her e mail and phone, and now that you have caught her twice, she knows unless she is stupid that you are watching. But SHE HAS NOT come to you asking for you to do this so you could heal. She continues to be evasive and basically just give you general statements, like “it was only a kiss”

(5) Where is the REMORSE??? The only real emotion that you have told us she has showed is crying when she realized you were serious and took some action. Asking you how you are is hardly REMORSE.

For those of us who have been through this, we all hope that some of what should have been occurring has actually happened and that you have just chosen not to get into details.

I am speaking to you as someone who actually found my wife in the middle of a “puppy pile” engaging in GROUP SEX at a little swingers group she had become part of. And while I did IMMEDIATELLY DIVORCE HER, a few years later we did R (long story not important here). THE IMPORTANT thing is that as horrible as what I discovered was, SHE DID ATTEMPT OR OFFER all OF POINTS 1-5 ABOVE.

Sorry to everyone to be so long, but with over 200 posts to your situation there are a lot of people pulling for you, many of whom I am sure do not think you are getting what you need. From the information you have posted, your wife is still withholding from you a lot and if you slow down this D process too much, you are destined to get hit in the gut all over again.

I agree with everything Badhurt said. The thread he was quoting from is here:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=532395

It's original title was

"Calling all BSs" by Nomadlady.

I only put it under the new title instead of bumping it because I wanted to put a bullseye next to it, so the newbies would know that it is really a core thread they should read.

Just checking in - are you ok?

I'm doing about the same. The VAR has confirmed some stuff and has left others still open. After listening to a few conversations with her best friend (did not go on Mexico trip), I'm sure she only kissed (as hard as this is to believe). She hasn't contacted the guy again, but isn't sure if she can keep that up. (Her words).

She loves me, but doesn't know why it even how she could have feelings like this for another person. (Her words). These feelings are the things making her undecideabke.

Keep on keeping on, as the lyrics to some old song go. I assume the VAR is your source of information in the above post. Is she telling you these things, too?

My concern is that while you have taken action, she's decidedly undecided and unless you continue your course of action, you'll find yourself in the dreaded Limbo. Where you don't know whether you are married or not. You wouldn't be the first to be there. Yet that's what she wants since it keeps HER options open and she can see what develops. At the expense of your mental health.

What is strange in a grown woman, as opposed to a high school girl, is that she continues to have "feelings" for OM. If she hasn't seen him and hasn't been in communication with him, one would suspect that the "feelings" would start to fade.

After listening to a few conversations with her best friend

Be very careful with that one, my wayward went over to her best friends house hours before she and AP had sex to "get advice". She had kissed him by this point in time but did not disclose that to her friend, and through minimizing/blameshifting/lying convinced her best friend that nothing physical had happened and that the EA was going to end (her best friend is a BS). She claimed she was going to end things because the guy was too needy and she needed to reinvest in her relationship with me. Her best friend bought this hook line and sinker. If they're willing to lie at all, they are willing to lie to literally anyone. The wayward mind knows no bounds for compartmentalizing, deceit, self preservation, and in general shitty behavior to anyone standing in their path.

What is strange in a grown woman, as opposed to a high school girl, is that she continues to have "feelings" for OM. If she hasn't seen him and hasn't been in communication with him, one would suspect that the "feelings" would start to fade.

This is exactly what I was thinking.

It seems like it has been a long time now since she has had any contact with him and still undecided, still thinking about him.

Is she still listening to C&W music and changing the station before she gets home.

Hoosier,

I will go a little against the grain, and accept that it was a kiss...and a big time start of an emotional affair. Your WW is absolutely starstruck about this guy....a guy that she had known for a couple of days.

There are plenty of members here, who were absolutely devastated by their partner's EA. I believe that she may be telling the truth, although I wouldn't be taken aback if there was much more to her story.

I do kind of believe that she was looking for some fantasy. I don't believe that she was unexpectedly blindsided by this guy---more like her mindset was "ripe for the picking". Internally, she was in search of SOMETHING. That is her brokenness. That is what she is still withdrawing from to this day.

And for the record---NO, this guy isn't anything special. He doesn't "understand" her like some fucking prince charming. He is merely a poacher...a parasite...that is as equally broken, or more so, than your wife.

Continue to administer reality to her. If she said that she is committed to the marriage, then she needs a counselor to help pound it into her head that her behavior is not reality-based. She needs to realize that (1) she has issues that she has to address to better herself, and (2) she stands a very real chance of losing her husband and family if she does not address said issues.

And this is not even touching your needs. You may come to realize that you do not want to stay in this marriage. That is your job to sort out. It's not fair that you have been dealt this hand, but now you have to deal with it.

Stay vigilant. Watch her actions. Your self esteem may have been damaged, but your moral compass has not. Do not accept...in even the tiniest of ways...behavior that you deem unacceptable.

Spend some extra time and effort on yourself. Keep posting. You are in for a long ride---like it or not.

Does anyone find it odd that his wife never mentions this guy has contacted her, or that this OM has not tried once to contact her in any way, in all of this time. And yet she is still thinking about him.

IUHoosier

I am sorry to hear this news and it is bad news./

You are as previous poster said now in limbo land, basically exactly where you were on DDay. I wish I could say different but some of that is because you have allowed her to stonewall you and take the momentum back from you. She is telling you nothing, and I assume the VAR has given you all the information. She is still lying to o you a she told you she wants to be with you, but has told her girlfriend she does not know if she can stop from calling him . Given the fact that you by giving her D papers you have made it clear she is not going to have a husband (you) and a boyfriend, you are right back where you started because you are just going about your business waiting for HER to decide WHEN she is going to cheat on you again.

Three weeks into this fucking ordeal for you and you still have ONLY the information you are getting from spying. Is that how you want to live. ???? She is obviously still thinking of dumping you and you are just watching.She has told her girlfriend she did not call him yet but you are content still sitting there where all he has to do is dial her number and HE CAN CALL her. You really think she will hang up on him? The VAR is not going to save your marriage if you want to save it.

I apologize for being tough but you are not listening now to a lot if the advice you are getting.

Did her GF sympathize with her or tell her to snap out of it??

You gut has been WRONG a number of times now

(1) before she left you thought your marriage was great. That was wrong because other than her girlfriend who had permission to fuck other men, your wife is the only one who cheated on her husband

(2) you suspected nothing and if this guy had lives one hour closer to you in US and the phone bill had not shown up, he would have been banging your wife and you would have bed oblivious to it.

(3) your gut told you she was acting cold and hot for a week, a week she was obviously breaking the NC pledge she have you and you got lucky again intercepting one e mail that was obviously not the only one.

She has offered NOTHI iNG to you .

The approach you are using has you now totally playing defense. You need some answers from her not the VAR.

I know all of us hoping you get control are sitting here knowing that one of the days we are going to see the distraught post from you that you have caught her again.

I am going to send you a post later with all the questions I think you should be asking in a confrontational mode. I hope to hell you do some if it

Again , what does filing the papers do. It has had no effect on her behavior. It is time to tell her that she is doing NOTHing for you but sharing space with you and longing for her Canadian scum bag

IU Hoosier,

I totally understand that you are under no obligation to take any of the advice anyone is giving you on this forum, but when you initially posted, I and many of the people who have been in your shoes took a sincere interest since you had just been blindsided with one of the most devastating things that can happen to a man, or woman for that matter.

When someone gets terrible news, and you have, or if they have a terrible disease, the initial step is usually denial. You felt this when you said “How could this happen?” Then there usually comes anger, which you exhibited when after more lying you gave her D papers. But after the anger has to come ACTION<

I or none of us are mindreaders and at first you were giving some information for people to respond to you on. The last two posts are basically two sentence and appear to be stating you are just co-existing and waiting. THAT IS YOUR RIGHT> But if you have been reading some of the other [posts on this forum, you will see where the passive wait and see game usually winds up.

Personally, with what you wife is NOT doing, I don’;t see how you can want to be close to her any more, or even want to continue on with the relationship. She does NOT love you like you love her, and I am sorry to say that to you.

If I were you, I would sit her down, either in therapy or out of it, and ask directly looking INTO her eyes:

(1) How did this start in Mexico? Did the girlfriend start up with his buddy or know the other Canadian through and online web site or FB???

(2) Did she spend the night in his hotel room?? If she says no, ask her how you can believe that given her behavior? Make her answer you???

(3) Whose plan was it for the week end tryst that was supposed to happen, girlfriends or your wife’s? The other girlfriend lives 10 hours away you said?

(4) Where was this week end supposed to occur, and what was she planning to tell you about going away for another week end after she just got home?? I hope you were not believing she really wouldn’t do it had you not caught her.Since you did not confront her until two or three days before she was doing this, what was she planning to do? Call you from work and tell you she was leaving for the week end??

(5) She tells you she may not love you anymore, and wants to separate. Now we know she was agreeable to that because she was in daily contact with him and had you let that happen she would be heavily in PA by now. Do you have copies of ALL the correspondence that went back and forth, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, has OM physically been down to see her in person.?? You already know she lied about NC, you need to ask her this question point blank.

(6) She wrote a NC letter that meant nothing. Why has she not come to you and voluntarily wanted to do another more final one??? The answer is because she is still in this affair. But you need to make HER tell you that SINCE YOU ONLY KNOW THAT BECAUSE OF THE var.

(7) Is he still contacting her???

(8) Is she having SEX WITH YOU? OR ATTEMPTING TO.??? Someone so deeply in the fog as her usually tries to avoid contact on an intimate level or acts different because her mind is on the OM. You should be able to notice that.

(9) Ask her what she thinks she is doing to try to heal your marriage.

You should be able to think of a lot more things that you want to know. Right now, either you are going to catch her eventually again, or she is going to make plans behind your back to leave you.

How can you want to be with this woman who is doing this to you???And still obviously lying because her GF was just told she doubts if she can keep NC and is still UNDECIDED on what to do. THAT MEANS undecided on whether to crap all over you again by the way.

If you look at this, what you are asking for is a TIMELINE , which she has not given you. I would also tell her when you ask these questions that if she lies to you again, it’s over, no matter when you find out about the lies

I know you may be mad at me now for being so blunt. I apologize but if you read all of the posts on this forum where there are DD #1, DD #2, and so on, hopefully you will do more to protect yourself. Each DD day does NOT BECOME ANY EASIER, and you have basically already had 2.

I am sure I speak for everyone and wish you well. I hope by now you have done some of this and just not told the board what you have done. The VAR is NOT going to save your marriage if that is what you want.

I woke her up tonight (figured I might get some straight answers if she was half asleep) and told her I knew she was still talking to this guy (I really thought it was done, but wanted to see what she said).

She told me she did call him last night, but it was just to say goodbye. Ha, right I said. I told her there was nothing at this point that can save this marriage with the way she has been acting and so careless with my feelings.

The last thing I said to her was that I can't imagine why this OP was enough for her to throw all of us away. She said she just can't say goodbye with one email. Haha, I said "But you can say goodbye to me just like that!?!?" Really pissed me off she could even say that to me.

She was sobbing and i almost broke to comfort her. I couldn't believe I was even thinking about doing that. I got disgusted with myself and I told her that she should get her shit together tomorrow and move out. She just left the house to drive around. I told her that I didn't care and I was going to bed.