SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi, BR, I think you mistakenly posted one of your last responses in "unsure's" post.

Annb. Thank you. I thought it got lost by accident. Like your husband who gave up his hobby, my wife has voluntarily given up hers. She will still run at the local high school track, but no more races and no more training for long distances.

BR, I agree with you that notifying everyone of the A probably would not be helpful if you choose to work toward R. However, you shouldn't feel as though you can't talk to people about it when you need to. If you have a good friend that you want to discuss it with, you should do so. I'm sure you know who you can trust with the information.

Tiger,

These ass holes know no one that is anywhere near us to talk to and if they are lucky they will never be in proximity to me. Iam talking here rather than to anyone I know. If I decide to divorce for any further betrayals or previous ones that I discover, that al;l changes.

In almost 300 posts in this thread, I did not read anything that indicated that BR is "ok with it." I don't understand how it can be interpreted that he is fine with her betrayal just because he is not going scorched earth.

King Rat

Thank you. Seems like some have a set agenda and response and ignore what is written in English. It's OK. I don't think he will be writing a best selling book anytime soon.

OK, so I have contacted a polygraph examiner, actually two, and I have the cost estimates, which are meaningless since I do not give a shit about the costs. The big question is when to do it. At present, my wife thinks her offer went in one ear and out my other ear, and she has brought it up twice about wanting to do it right away. I have acted not so interested.

The big question is how much notice I give her. And do not worry. There will be a test no matter what she says or does or confesses to.

I know the questions have to be yes/no answers.

So far, the four I have are

(1) Have you had sexual relations with any other men during your marriage other than the two BR knows about

(2) Do you have any electronic devices in your possession that BR does not know about and have the passwords for.

(3) Are there any other apps or e mail accounts that you have registered for that BR does not know about and know what they are.

(4) Have you have any contact by any means with OM1 or OM2 since you were caught.

Any suggestions are modification recommendations are welcome please.

I am NOT going to do this test until after she travels and we do our visits to the girls. If i get the worst results possible, I want it after the visits so I have time to get my wits about me and make a plan on when and how to tell them.

I honestly do not think she will fail, but who the fuck knows. I have to do this to have any chance to move forward. And quite frankly, her reaction when the test becomes reality and willingness to do it will also be informative.

Last night i let her back in our bed, and let her cry on my chest. Didn't say much myself. Just thought how much this sucks.

Still not sure how putting her through a polygraph test qualifies as rug sweeping, but to each their own.

Your plan sounds good to me. As far as notice, maybe let her know once you pull into the parking lot? And then ask her if there is anything she would like to add before you both go inside? Her reaction to that alone would tell you a lot.

[This message edited by Atrowspark at 12:19 PM, September 13th (Friday)]

Hi BR,

I read here every day, follow peoples stories and learn from the advice I read that others get. I hardly ever post, but really felt I had to on your story, because I have been sad, and a bit disturbed by a lot of the advice/ comments on your story. It's one of the reasons that I have not posted mine. I find a lot of the advice so judgemental and negative. When we are already spinning, and trying to navigate this shit storm it is not helpful.

I think you have done very well throughout this. I think your wife is a good candidate for successful R. We see these awful stories on here all the time of a WS who is not remorseful, not committed to change, in a fog, blame shafting, feeling entitled. Those are not good candidates for R. Your wife is not doing any of those things.

The judgements on her thought processes, her love of you, her libido, her mental health have quite surprised me by people who do not know her.

We all have WS's. That's why we are here. A lot of us are on the road to successfully R. Some have chosen divorce as their path, and that is fine, but it doesn't mean they have to tell everyone to divorce.

My husband's reaction to being caught was very much like your wife's. Devastated by his actions, ashamed of his behavior and gutted by the pain I was in. It shot him back to reality pretty quick and he was desperate and willing to do anything to fix it, and he has. It is a work in progress, and I am sure it will be for a long time, but we are on our way to a very good relationship.

I truly believe that people can have a midlife crisis and screw up very badly, and come back from it.

You see, our brains need to believe we are good people. So when we (as human beings) are doing something that is not good, as in betrayal, our brain will protect us from dwelling on the wrongness or badness of it. The WS's brain will justify it, it will lie to them and they will believe it.

They will believe what they need to continue doing what they are doing. ie no one will get hurt, I love my spouse but I deserve something for me, it's just fun, no one will find out. I am still a good parent or spouse.

They believe it so much it clouds everything and they compartmentalize. Then they get caught, and they are shaken out of that lie they are telling themselves. They see the damage, the pain and what they might lose. It's an eye opener. My husband was there, I think your wife is too.

Ignore the judgements from posters on your wife at this time, and go by what you see and feel.

This is no bed of roses, but it can be done if there is love and commitment.

My husband and I did most things very differently to what is suggested here, and it worked for us.

We did MC right away. Our MC told us that statistics show that if we work on healing together, we heal better as individuals and as a couple. She was right. He heard my pain and struggles, I heard his shame, guilt and struggles. It gave us both empathy to what the other was going through.

I obsessed with the details, even when he swore over and over that I had them all. I too was planning a lie detector. I then decided against it. What he had told me was bad enough, what I had read in emails was bad enough, I knew a lot. Did it matter at this point? It happened, I couldn't do anything to change it. Trying to catch him lying wasn't going to help us move forward. I had to decide, it happened, the details didn't really matter anymore. All that mattered is that it happened. We had to move forward. I still obsessed for a bit, and sometimes wished I had done it, but that passes.

The first year is tough, so tough. There were days that I thought I was going crazy, that i would never feel normal again, that I hated him, then loved him, then felt sorry for him, then hated him again. The rollercoaster is real. There were days that I thought, Okay, i'm getting stronger, i'm doing this, and then I would fall apart in a heap on my bathroom floor. There were days that I screamed at him out of nowhere because of some trigger and flew into a rage, and I am not a screamer.

We never slept in separate rooms, neither left the house. Sometimes all of our talking took place in bed late at night. Sometimes I hated him, but still wanted his arms around me when I fell asleep.

We made sure we communicated through all of it. I told him what I needed and he responded. Our MC taught him "Reach, Respond, React". When he saw I was having a bad day, it was his job to reach out and open communication, respond to my fears or concerns or emotions, and react.

Today we have come such a long way. We are happier now, and I thought we were pretty happy before. We communicate deeper and constantly. We are more connected. He has changed, a lot. He is a different person. I love him. I am not at the complete trust stage, but I am trusting him more and more. He is happy to do whatever he needs to do to build trust.

We did an "affair recovery" weekend. It worked wonders and I believe a big reason why we were able to do so well right out of the gate. I don't think I am allowed to post it here but you can google them. This company has "infidelity coaches" as well that we each used a couple of times. Very helpful.

I am telling you all of this because I am concerned about the negative posts you have been getting. From what you have posted about your wife's reaction, I think she is very much like my husband, although the situation is very different. His A was a romance with a co worker that lasted 2 months. I think she is shocked at her behavior and I think you can make your way back from it.

There is hope, it is a long, painful road of up and down. I look back on the last two years and sometimes don't know how I made it through, but I am so glad I chose to give him this chance. He thanks me every day, and promises every day to never hurt me like that again.

I wish you and your wife all the strength in the world over the next few months, and I wish you all the best.

BR:

Keep moving forward. You are on the right path. The poly question are fine. Make sure you make time for you. This shit can build up. You’ve got a good plan. Keep to it.

“Seems like some have a set agenda and response and ignore what is written in English” Ya think!

Keep on keepin on. Good luck.

Full exposure is not for "revenge", at this point you don't know if she had any feelings for OM(s) a good question for the polygraph btw, it doesn't sound like it but she liked them enough and were comfortable with them to have intimacy and sex, plus it could have developed into something more either with any of those APs or new ones she would have possibly consider in the future, remember she only stopped because she got caught, full exposure brings consequences, serious ones that typically improves the chances of a successful R if the WS does the necessary work and heavylifting to help repair the destroyed M, the sheer embarrassment and damaged integrity brings the consequences to a different level whether you R or D, it certainly helps reduce appeal and the possibility of cheating again in the future. After full exposure some (including myself) also advise she apologize to the rest of the family as well for her huge betrayal since infidelity normally affects the entire family.

Yes every case is different and of course it's up to you, I just wanted to point out some of the reasons why full exposure is suggested here on SI and other websites, we've seen it play out THOUSANDS of times and it's a proven way to help reduce the chances of a repeat.

The examiner will help you define some key terms in your questions, like “sexual relations” (should include anything from kissing and caressing to intercourse, oral anal, B&D, etc.) and “contact.” The definitions have to be very clear.

Find a examiner for the polygraph in your area that has years of experience. Talk with whoever it is about what questions should be asked and how you should ask them. They will help you formulate questions.

I think you said your wife offered to set the polygraph up, do not allow her to do this. There was a wayward wife that set her test up and also paid the examiner to say that she passed.

I would consolidate 2 of your questions.

Write out a list of electronic devices and accounts.

Then ask more pointed:

2) Are there accounts or devices not listed on said sheet, you could use to communicate with either OM.

You

should also do what I saw someone else did. He left a question slot for his WW to add. She added in if she ever stopped loving her BS. This was kind of a question for herself. So she gets something to be proud of out of the polygraph.

Hopefully she gets something positive. Or it is a monstrous kick in the teeth.

You should have follow up actions laid out if she passes or fails.

Also arrange for separate rides home encase she fails and you lose it.

The other thing. After the poly, you have to double down on recovering. Maybe have a home session where you both sit facing each other and answer all questions openly and honestly. Let her ask some tough ones too. It will help bond you again after being tried.

[This message edited by DoinBettr at 4:13 PM, September 13th (Friday)]

First off he is being OK with it. Honestly what is he doing that shows he has disapproved of her actions. OK she went to her parents house for a few days big deal. She’s back in the house and he’s giving her hugs. Who in the world comforts the cheating spouse? Someone that’s going to be OK with it.

The best of luck with the rug sweep as a metaphoric 2 x 4. He is not holding his wife to any real consequences. The only reason he found out this time is because he came home early. There is nothing he can do to prevent her from doing this again and him never knowing about it. His wife knows he’s not gonna leave her. He has given that away by his actions.

So when everything is said and done she will be getting away with it with no consequences to herself or her lifestyle

I'm not sure where the rugsweeping comments come from.

The poly questions look good. The suggestion about combining two of the questions is a good suggestion. The questions have to be fully understood by the WS. If the WS doesn't think oral sex is cheating but the BS does the answer wouldn't be clear. A good examiner will make sure the questions are fully understood.

The examiner I used took a great deal of effort in making sure the questions were not ambiguous at all and couldn't be waffled on. The questions were all mine but he went over them painstakingly with my WW so understanding was very clear. He also was checking with me to make sure the questions captured what I wanted to know.

The polygraph is just a tool in a chest of tools. Just because she passes doesn't mean she's "entitled" to R. Just because she might fail a question doesn't mean D is the only result. In my opinion, anyway. There's a lot more required for R to take place.

My WW passed the poly with flying colours. We are separated and will D.

Have you had sexual relations with any other men during your marriage other than the two BR knows about

Do you want to include the time you were dating? Or engaged?

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 4:11 PM, September 13th (Friday)]

Smoked - Back up here a second.

He is under 3 months.

You shouldn't really do anything unless you have an unrepentant WS in the first 6 months. Your emotions are everywhere.

So how would he do consequences correctly if he is still in the first 6 months?

Let him get what he thinks he needs as the truth. Then at that point he needs to realize if he wants to stay or go.

Yeah, he is committed to staying too quick, but he isn't the first Bs to do that.

So focus on that and less on how to punish his WW.

Even if he filed on his WW, would that be enough for you Smoked? Why do you feel he needs to inflict this on her?

If the goal is to get away form her, he can do that by divorce. He knows that. He even is pushing the poly surprise.

There are few experiences that produce stronger emotions than affair betrayal.

BS who are going through this experience tend to go with their strongest emotions. Regardless of their effectiveness. There are BS here who forgive unrepentant WS again and again because the pull of those emotions are that strong. Again this is regardless of the effectiveness of the tactic. The WS is a different person, has their own motivations.

Affairs are a blunt force emotional situation, and yes, some of the visceral tactics have proven to work over time. I have no problem with people here recommending tactics that have proven to work. Some of the emotions are pretty basic on both BS and WS side, even if they are intense.

I agree that at this point there have not been consequences for WW. Quitting the races is not a consequence. That is a no brainer. The races were a gateway to her cheating. Her and her open marriage friend manipulated the situation to attend out of town races that required a hotel stay then available for trysts. She's still doing her running.

I would encourage BR to think long range about some consequences for THIS betrayal. Not scorched earth for future betrayals. THIS one needs to be addressed. Also, exposure to someone other than her parents. Someone on his side of the fence, who will be with him if things go further south. Again, as reality that THIS betrayal has changed things, regardless of WW's contrition or truthfulness (once caught.)

Not sure if anyone answered your question about how much notice to give your wife about the polygraph.

The general consensus I've seen over the years is you tell her about the polygraph when you're both in the car and on your way to the testing site.

There are a few reasons for this: She doesn't have time to prepare to beat the test (if she hasn't already, doesn't sound like it though), won't have time to find an excuse to get out of the test, and lastly this approach is the most likely to get any last minute "parking lot confessions".

It's not uncommon for a WS to panic when they realize what's about to go down and admit to things they otherwise wouldn't have. Sometimes to things the BS didn't even suspect.

So keep playing it cool and I wouldn't mention anything about a polygraph to her until a bit before it's time to take it. But at the end of the day how you want to approach it is up to you.

[This message edited by JS84 at 4:58 PM, September 13th (Friday)]

CONSEQUENCES

(1) our relationship is changed forever.

(2) she knows it will take years for me to regain trust.

(3) believe me, I am fairly convincing and she knows she is on thin ice

(4) she has lost a hobby or activity, competitive racing, that she has done since she was thirteen years old.

(5) she has humiliated her parents and they have told her she should be ashamed about herself. I know blood is thicker than water if it came to that but they are not being in any way understanding of what she did.

What are "real" consequences then? Should she be waterboarded? Tar and feathered? Should she pay restitution? Should she have to grovel in front of the neighbors and friends and whip herself until she collapses from exhaustion and/or blood loss?

I get not telling a lot of people. I didn't because this was very real to me and one of the hardest things I ever emotionally processed. The last thing I wanted was to become coffee table fodder. I didn't need jerk-off armchair quarterbacks, who only knew a scintilla of my actual life and relationship, gossiping about me and making flippant statements about my situation. Fuck that. You think everyone is supportive? Think again. They'll turn on you. And once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't put it back it.

This is a real person with a real +20 year relationship. Maybe I'm naive, but I trust him when he says she's scared shitless. Talk about the Sword of Damocles. If he were to casually make a decision to divorce as if it's as simple and easy as changing his socks, then I'd opine that he didn't have much of a relationship to begin with. The fact that he's struggling is a testament that he does have a solid foundation.

Question one could read - Excluding OM1 and OM2, since being in an exclusive relationship with BR have you had any sexual contact with anyone else?

I question two and three could read this way - Do you have any means of communicating with your affair partners that BR does not know about?

A question you might consider - If BR filed for divorce when he discovered your affair and the settlement was in your favor, would you have signed the papers?

To answer your question on telling your WW about the poly. Either tell her when you two are in the car going there. Or, tell her you booked her poly at place A, then take her to place B for the test. There have been at least a couple of threads over the years where A BS thought that the WS got to the examiner and bribed them. Some also took some meds to lower their pulse and blood pressure before taking their exam. Just two things to think about.

The problem with the term 'consequences' and the way it sometimes gets used in relation to infidelity is that it puts all of the pressure onto the betrayed person to come up with a set of actions that are guaranteed to prevent their partner from ever cheating again.

And that presumes that one individual can control another, when what we know is that without locking someone into a jail cell, they will always be free to do whatever they want. We may not like to accept that fact, but we really should if we want to take effective, realistic action in the wake of infidelity.

The truth is that people can only control themselves, and even then, some people struggle with that. Addiction, trauma, poor role models, abuse, and a host of other problems can make it hard for people to manage their own lives. So how much control can we really enforce on others, without physically locking them in a room?

What should we do? Point a gun at someone and tell them that if they cheat again, we will blow them away? That approach may work in the world of organized crime, though even there it is not 100% effective, but is that any basis for a civil and loving relationship? Of course not.

So instead of trying to control other people with a set of actions and threats that may or may not strike a chord with them, what we can do is control ourselves, and state what our responses will be if infidelity occurs again, and tell our wayward spouses that they are free to do whatever they like.

Essentially, we let them know that if they want to behave in a certain way, that is fine, but we will not be there when they return home. That presents them with the inconvenient truth that they cannot control us, and that we can exercise our right to leave as a result of their actions any time it suits us.

What we really have to do is take control and ownership of our own lives, rather than trying to control the lives of others, because the notion that we can control other people is a delusion unless we own a jail cell. And if we have to lock someone up to prevent them cheating, the relationship really is not healthy.

Instead, what we can say is, "If you want me to stay with you, this is what I need, and this is what will make me leave you. You can do whatever you like. I am not going to waste my time or my life in trying to control you".

The truth in the aftermath of infidelity is not that we should be struggling to impose control on our wayward spouse, but that we need to impose control on ourselves and our life, because that is the only thing that we can control.

Immediate family and close friends knowing what the cheater did has helped some cheaters keep from cheating again.

BR has mentioned wanting a postnup. That would be a consequence.

Sometimes the BS removes the wedding ring permanently. Sometimes the WS, particularly WW, removes the original wedding ring for a new, less fancy ring.

Sometimes the BS was participating in certain activities or socializing with people for the BS sake. They stop doing these things after the A.

Sometimes the BS begins doing things that the WS frowned upon and the BS used to forgo for the sake of the marriage.

Sometimes the WH buys the BW a new mink coat. That is kind of old school.

Sometimes the couple legally divorces but stays together as a couple.

Sometimes the morals of the BS are weakened and they cheat on the WS at a later date. May also be known as a revenge affair.

Sometimes the WS offers the BS a "hall pass" to mollify the BS.

We all could have married other people. We invested our efforts in the WS because we thought they were a good choice. When the WS proves to be not such a good investment, the terms should be renegotiated. Adultery abrogates the marriage agreement under most moral systems. A "new marriage" carries with it new terms.