SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm still going to wait for the girls to get settled, but if I leave now, I'll be the guy who left his wife due to lack of sex caused by her medical condition. The previous 15 years will get lost in translation.

Actually you'll be the guy who got tired of being married to a woman who cheated on him twice and still wasn't interested in giving her all in the marriage.

I will say that due to codependency (in my view), I felt that my H was a fairly good H, but I had complaints (doesn't matter what they were, they really upset me). This continued for years.

When I would address the issues with my H, he did one of several things:

Listened intently but changed nothing.

Didn't listen and watched tv.

Sighed loudly and said things like, "I'm trying, but it's never good enough."

Got defensive and said, "What about you?"

Nothing. Ever. Changed.

I was in IC off and on during these years, and due to a lot of different issues that erupted in our lives, I became depressed--very depressed.

He acted out sexually (because, poor baby!) and I acted out sexually (because I honestly could see no other way to handle things) and our marriage unraveled in spectacular fashion. I finally found a new IC who said to me, "Why are you still there?" I explained about kids needing parents and kids with disabilities and I can't make it financially. I mean, I felt that my reasons were 100% valid. Looking back, I was scared and uncomfortable with such a huge change, but I started putting ducks in a row. I thought, "Why not? What will it hurt?"

As you might imagine, things didn't improve. Then one day my H was doing something really selfish and hurtful. It was like I wasn't even there. And I just stared at him and thought, "I will never be important to him. My needs simply do not matter." I got a piece of paper and wrote: My Bills and Your Bills and made each of us a list. I texted my parents and asked, "Can I stay in your basement for an undetermined amount of time? This is over." They agreed.

I walked out to my H who smugly sat there doing whatever the f@ck he wanted without a care in the world, and I handed him the list and said, "I'm moving out next Saturday. Here are your obligations. You can stay here." And I walked away.

I could hear howling in the other room, stomping and grumbling. He came in and yelled, "What?! What do you want from me?!" I told him, "Nothing. Don't worry about it." He slammed out of the bedroom and literally lost his mind. Furious.

He came back and was miserable, totally miserable. "WHAT DO YOU WANT?!!!!!" and threw the iPad onto the bed. And in that moment, something occurred to me. My H had never been unhappy in our M. For 15 years (at that time), it was me that complained and him that ignored. For 15 years he had been looking out for Numero Uno! And now I was watching his anger, his frustration, him not getting what he wanted.

The power had shifted. I had finally drawn my boundary and asserted my power. It turns out, Toto, that I had the power all along. I just did not realize that all I had to do was click my heels and say, "Unacceptable. I am leaving you." That was the day that the power shifted from him to me and HE started working hard to stay married instead of me working hard to accept the unacceptable.

You have the power too, Twitchy. It's been in you all along.

This is a topic I’ve given a lot of thought to. In the early stages of my relationship with my fwh we were having sex twice a day. After 8 years of marriage it became a horrible silent battle of wills. He was rejected. I felt guilty. All very sexy. I’m sure I used the headache line, although mostly because I suffer from migraines. In the months leading up to dday I started wondering how the hell things had got so bad.

First up, I decided to educate myself on how my desire worked. I don’t know if this is the case for all women, but I believed sex was all about pleasing the man. It was about looking good for them, giving blow jobs, and doing it whenever they wanted. This is the message I got from media and friends when I was a teenager. I had no clue that sex was also supposed to be about me as well. I had two very unsatisfactory relationships before my fwh where I had some awful sex. I didn’t know any better. My fwh was totally different. He actually cared about me having a good time. We still ended up having hardly any sex despite the fact that I enjoyed it.

Why? A variety of reasons. Female desire doesn’t work the same as male. I needed the touch and closeness to feel turned on. Fch was a walking boner. I thought I was broken because I wasn’t horny all the time. It was liberating to discover I was normal and there were things I could do about it. However, it did depend on my fwh making some changes too. He’s a SA. He depended on sex for his well being and sense of self esteem. He pursued relentlessly and as a result my desire flat lined. If you’re interested there are some great podcasts about breaking the pursuer-distancer dynamic that couples can get trapped in. The more he chased, the worse it got. Once the relentless chasing stopped I felt free to initiate. I also felt free to figure out what I want from sex. Since Fch started working on this behaviour our sex life has improved hugely.

We also make an effort to communicate our thoughts about sex in a way I never would have before. We have a 1 to 1 every month where we ask each other set questions, with a question specifically about how we feel our sex life is. We usually end up having sex after this as talking about it turns me on. A happy discovery.

Getting curious about our sex lives, ourselves as sexual beings, and actually talking about it has helped me so much. I’m no longer the frigid wife. My husband is no longer a walking boner. I hate that it took an A for me to figure all of this out. I hope my experience is of some use to others.

>>>>My fwh was totally different. He actually cared about me having a good time. We still ended up having hardly any sex despite the fact that I enjoyed it. Why? A variety of reasons. Female desire doesn’t work the same as male. I needed the touch and closeness to feel turned on. <<<<

Recenly, lots of fascinating things have been written about female sexuality and how it differs (or does not differ) from male sexuality. Some of the most popular include Untrue: Why Nearly Everything We Believe About Women, Lust, and Infidelity is Wrong and How the New Science Can Set Us Free (Wednesday Martin), The Female Thing: Dirt, Sex, Envy, Vulnerability (Laura Kipnis), and Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence (Esther Perel).

One take home message from recent (female) writers on sexuality? The old belief that women need touch and closeness and men just need to get their rocks off? (You see that written on www.survivinginfidelity.com over and over and over and over again. Ad nauseum).

Not so fast, Sheila. How about we rethink the entire paradigm?

Women give sex to get love. Men give love to get sex.

Pulleez. Can we give it a rest?

I dont think I explained my point very well. I’m not talking about women’s or men’s reasons for having sex. I’m discussing the mechanics of wanting to have sex. Closeness and touch make me horny. Women’s desire tends to be, but isn’t limited to, responsive. As in manual stimulation is needed to get turned on. Men tend to have, but aren’t limited to, spontaneous desire. As in they have very sensitive accelerators and can get turned on easily. There are women like this too.

I have no idea what reasons people have for having sex. I’m talking purely mechanics of desire. I wish I did get spontaneously horny though, it’s fun.

Hephaestus2 -

I am trying to grasp what you are saying, as I am not as familiar with those books mentioned.

I am a female who likes sex. I believe I am not a minority. But, I do think our sexuality is different. It's experienced differently. I think that porn has given *some* men a lack of understanding about our arousal and preferences.

As a female, it's almost ingrained for me to believe that because I can not have an orgasm based just on penetration that I am missing a button or a skill. We experience sex differently because the penis IS the male sex organ in which stimulation leads to orgasm. The clitoris IS the female sex organ which for most women need stimulation for orgasm. So, that's something different. Imagine if you were to insert your scrotom in the vagina instead of the penis. It might feel pleasant but if someone's not doing something with your penis, likely nothing is going to happen for you.

So, when I think of paradigm shift and differences in males and females on the discussion of intercourse, that's where I think there is a disconnect.

I also think the historical chaste we as women have experienced is starting to phase out. When I was in school, girls did not discuss masturbation for example, much less admit to doing it. (And, I actually still believe some of the girls didn't do it at all). Where are the boys? They are talking about all sorts of things having to do with it. So many things were taboo for girls because we would be judged, same as when we had sex. Noone is judging the boys for it, they are heros, we are "easy". It's really no mystery a poster such as littleavocet didn't understand how her sexuality worked. We are given the message from the time we are young - don't dress this way, keep your legs closed, good girls don't do that before marriage, etc. "To have sex you should really make sure you are in love, and are loved, not be used" These are what parents teach, what we hear growing up...Our sexuality in many ways is clothed in shame. It's deeply engrained in a way I don't think most men comprehend.

I agree a new paradigm would be nice - for females to be taught to embrace their sexual feelings from a younger age. I think more of that is happening now than in our generations. I once watched an Oprah show where she had an expert on that encouraged parents to buy their teenage daughters a vibrator. I had teenage daughters, and regardless of my thoughts on embracing female sexuality there was literally no way I would have bought any of them a vibrator. I talked to them differently than I was talked to, but for the most part, we really still teach chaste and abstinence. I don't think I would go back and do it differently either..Mostly because there is danger attached to our girls with it - pregnancy, date rape, feeling used, getting low self worth, etc. At my generation it still was more superficial - reputation mostly was what we were warned about.

The other consideration is we are vulnerable sexually in a way that as a man you are not. Physically most of us women are probably weaker than the man we are having sex with which inherently means there has to be a greater sense of trust for us. We are allowing someone into our body, which is a different act than placing yourself in someone else's body.

I don't know where I am going with this, but to say I don't know why we would ever expect a female sexuality to be the same as a man's sexuality. I tried it some in my early twenties. I went out and tried to have unattached sex like a man. You know what? I think for the most part it was damaging to my psyche. I think that at the root, I wanted to have that precious experience with someone who gave a shit about the person attached to the vagina.

I can have sex with my husband under most conditions. I don't have to feel connected or loved to feel aroused. But, I do feel MORE aroused when connected. If we have "porn star sex" it's not authentic, yet I do think we are expected to react that way at least in variance. These women on your screens getting pounded? I can tell you that's a lot like chewing gum. It can feel good, but likely that's not going to set off the rockets. Even watching the way they perform cunnilingous...uh, no. Not even close. You might see it done properly once in a while but for the most part it's really for effect. There is just a severe disconnect on expectations and what women really want.

I have had great and very passionate sex with my husband. I have been so excited I thought I might lose my mind but it just never looks the way most men think that it should. And, even we as women kind of think that it should based on the outward influences.

I don't think I am debating you, more asking you expand your point more fully so that I can understand it better.

WThe old belief that women need touch and closeness...

Pulleez. Can we give it a rest?

Are you saying this is not true? In spite of all the women who have said they need these things?

I dont think I explained my point very well. I’m not talking about women’s or men’s reasons for having sex. I’m discussing the mechanics of wanting to have sex. Closeness and touch make me horny. Women’s desire tends to be, but isn’t limited to, responsive. As in manual stimulation is needed to get turned on. Men tend to have, but aren’t limited to, spontaneous desire. As in they have very sensitive accelerators and can get turned on easily. There are women like this too.

I have no idea what reasons people have for having sex. I’m talking purely mechanics of desire. I wish I did get spontaneously horny though, it’s fun.

I can get spontaneously horny, but yes it's more spread out. We as women are "slow build". From getting aroused to orgasm, we build. I saw someone on here the other day say that men just "release it" we have to "build to it" and for that reason I believe the couple has to recognize those differences in order to succeed. When I was younger, I was spontaneously aroused more often. About mid point of the marriage, my husband felt very discouraged when he showed me his penis and I didn't just start going at it with him. I finally said, "I need to build up a little to it - hold me and touch me". At first it was super unnatural in our relationship because we were a couple that were always at it and ready to go. But, over time he's conditioned to respond to that close time more fully and enjoys it more. He no longer sees it as a step he has to take to get what he wants, but as a part of the process he enjoys and looks forward to. That was the paradigm shift for us.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:50 PM, April 23rd (Tuesday)]

>>>>Hephaestus2 - I am trying to grasp what you are saying, as I am not as familiar with those books mentioned.<<<<

OK. How about trying it from this angle.

I am a woman. Therefore I cry more easily. I am more sensitive, vulnerable, thoughtful, caring, touchy feely. I am inherently more ethical. I am less interested in sex than men. I don't masturbate. I don't have sexual fantasies or if I do, it is only with my husband. I crave safety and stability. I don't respond sexually to the sight of a physically fit, young male body. I am more likely to be aroused if I feel safe and if I am being treated kindly, with affection, and with compassion. For example, I may respond sexually if my husband helps me do the dishes and take care of the kids. I don't fart.

You are a man. You don't cry. You are less sensitive. You are far less vulnerable. You tend to be thoughtless and uncaring. You are inherently less ethical. You are far more interested in sex. You masturbate. You frequently have sexual fantasies about a wide variety of women. You crave sexually novelty and excitement. You respond sexually to the sight of an uncovered table leg or a ripe peach. Given half a chance, you will have sex with anything with a heartbeat. You would be happy to have sex with a woman you dislike if she was willing. You regard the phrase "bad blowjob" as an oxymoron. You fart routinely.

It isn't that the stereotypes have no basis in fact. They do. The problem arises because the stereotypes cannot account for fairly common occurrences. A woman with two children has been married for twenty years to a chartered accountant who treats her reasonably well but she decides to run off with the tattoed biker from the other side of the tracks who likes to slap her around occasionally. The man who enjoys poetry and shopping for new throw pillows and bed skirts for their bedroom.

If you are a mother and you have a son then you know that the stereotypes will only take you so far. If you are a woman and you have talked to your girlfriends about their sexual preferences then you will also know that the stereotypes are more than a little limiting.

If you are a man on a discussion board that deals with infidelity it can become tiresome reading how women are faithful and domestic but men are promiscuous neanderthals.

If you are a man on a discussion board that deals with infidelity it can become tiresome reading how women are faithful and domestic but men are promiscuous neanderthals.

If you think that is the prevailing attitude here, you are very much mistaken.

We've all learned that anyone can sleep around - man or woman.

People cheat because they have something broken inside them that they look to fill with external validation (enabled by thinking they are entitled to it). That has nothing to do with what sex they are.

A very smart person told me a while back that when your wife says she doesn’t want sex, she just means not with you.

That person was right. My stbxw has made a number of comments that have proven where her heart lies. She claims she didn’t say or she didn’t meant it like that or she emphasized the wrong words, any excuse.

1. “ I only want to have nice sex with you”. My reply, who do you want rough sex with? She said she didn’t mean it like that so I asked, why then even include “ with you” in the sentence? Wouldn’t that be implied? No response on that.

2. “That’s gross and I won’t do that, ever, I don’t even know how to do that”. My reply, we actually did this just a few weeks ago and you introduced it. She claims to hate porn, never watches it, but pulled out some great moves, but then denied doing them. Huh?

3. “This isn’t that kind of party”. She said as we were in a hot tub with 4 couples. I took off my suit. I asked how did she know if it was or not, did you have experience with them?

4. “ do you think he ( her fitness trainer) likes women that are a little heavier?” My reply, how the fuck would I know and why the fuck would you care?

5. “Why would she ( friend of ours) divorce him? He’s got money, kids and adults like him and he’s very good looking.

My reply, wow, you should go after him.

6. My all time favorite: “ I only have sex with you out of obligation.” My reply, that hurts. Her first response after, “ I never said that”. Her next response after that, “ well, I didn’t mean all the time”.

It sucks, it hurts, it shattered my confidence as a man to the point I didn’t recognize who I was.

OK. How about trying it from this angle.

I am a woman. Therefore I cry more easily. I am more sensitive, vulnerable, thoughtful, caring, touchy feely. I am inherently more ethical. I am less interested in sex than men. I don't masturbate. I don't have sexual fantasies or if I do, it is only with my husband. I crave safety and stability. I don't respond sexually to the sight of a physically fit, young male body. I am more likely to be aroused if I feel safe and if I am being treated kindly, with affection, and with compassion. For example, I may respond sexually if my husband helps me do the dishes and take care of the kids. I don't fart.

Okay. I get it. I don't think this board is really like that. I am a woman, I have fantasies, I masturbate (occasionally), I fart (more frequently than I masturbate. I may respond differently to my husband if he is emotionally connected with me. I may also respond differently to my husband if he is an equal partner in the household (we both work, so why is all you are listing my responsibility?) - that way when there is time for sex I am not so exhausted that I can't physically think about doing anything but sleeping.

You are a man. You don't cry. You are less sensitive. You are far less vulnerable. You tend to be thoughtless and uncaring. You are inherently less ethical. You are far more interested in sex. You masturbate. You frequently have sexual fantasies about a wide variety of women. You crave sexually novelty and excitement. You respond sexually to the sight of an uncovered table leg or a ripe peach. Given half a chance, you will have sex with anything with a heartbeat. You would be happy to have sex with a woman you dislike if she was willing. You regard the phrase "bad blowjob" as an oxymoron. You fart routinely.

I have a husband, and he does cry, he is vulnerable. He is not thoughtless or less caring. He does masturbate, he does have fantasies about a wide variety of women. I don't think he would have sex with anything with a heartbeat, and he's a faithful man. He would regard the phrase "bad blowjob" as possible but just as much an oxymoron. He also farts routinely.

MY point - stereotypes are that way because there are majorities on things. Say enough of them some of them are going to hit. There are differences between the sexes. There is a difference in how we desire. It's okay there are differences, that's part of the attraction between the sexes.

If you are a man on a discussion board that deals with infidelity it can become tiresome reading how women are faithful and domestic but men are promiscuous neanderthals.

As it can be difficult on this board at times to be a woman. You notice the difficulties that are problems for you as an individual. I come to this board a lot obviously. Every day I read generalities about waywards. Some of them I agree with some of them I do not. I hear every day that a cheater is going to cheat again and again. I hear that I just wanted to have sex. I am sure there are other women on here who have cheated who did just want sex and they get to hear how it's never about that. I am just putting it to you this way, because you are if you are tuned in to what you find offensive to you, any one of us can find that.

I personally do not think men are neaderthals, but I find it interesting as a BH that you are hearing that. I would think that what you are hearing is about WH's. So, I guess it's just what channel you stay tuned into.

Ouch, HQ. Sounds like you were married to a professional gaslighted. That is maddening. I'm sorry she treated like that.

I agree that stereotypes can be annoying. I also agree with HO (sorry for the acronym). You see what you are attuned to. I don't think that the belief in that stereotype of men is majority on here.

>>>>If you think that is the prevailing attitude here, you are very much mistaken.<<<<

That's a relief.

>>>>We've all learned that anyone can sleep around - man or woman.<<<<

Good to know. Thanks.

hikingout wrote >>MY point - stereotypes are that way because there are majorities on things. Say enough of them some of them are going to hit. There are differences between the sexes. There is a difference in how we desire. <<

Agreed. There are differences between the sexes. Some of them are very important. And sometimes stereotypes hide more than they reveal.

>>>>Every day I read generalities about waywards. Some of them I agree with some of them I do not. <<<<

No one likes to be reduced to a stereotype and that includes people who have been unfaithful.

>>>>> I hear every day that a cheater is going to cheat again and again. <<<<

Yes. People do say that. Of course, it isn't true. There are plenty of people who make a big mistake once, regret it, and then do everything they can to fix it. Painting every unfaithful spouse with the same brush is unfair and untrue. Of course bashing all unfaithful spouses is just one way people deal with the horror of being betrayed. It makes no sense but it is understandable as a way to blow off some steam.

I don’t think it’s blowing off steam. Unfortunately it’s based on their experiences. And that’s why I don’t let that stick to me. I concentrate on what I can benefit from. That’s more of what I was trying to say. When Inreread that it sounded like a complaint. It wasn’t. It’s more of a statement of people come at thee things from their own experiences but it doesn’t always speak to our own. And that’s okay! Interesting stuff though, I will check out some of those books. Thanks.

Why? A variety of reasons. Female desire doesn’t work the same as male. I needed the touch and closeness to feel turned on. Fch was a walking boner. I thought I was broken because I wasn’t horny all the time. It was liberating to discover I was normal and there were things I could do about it. However, it did depend on my fwh making some changes too. He’s a SA. He depended on sex for his well being and sense of self esteem. He pursued relentlessly and as a result my desire flat lined. If you’re interested there are some great podcasts about breaking the pursuer-distancer dynamic that couples can get trapped in. The more he chased, the worse it got. Once the relentless chasing stopped I felt free to initiate. I also felt free to figure out what I want from sex. Since Fch started working on this behaviour our sex life has improved hugely

Wow thank you for this! You practically described my situation although I think mine may be too far gone to get back on track again.