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PBST

Getting ready for company after fireworks but I saw your post.

Quite frankly she is not coming around. Here is what has occurred

(1) You exposed her AP to his wife and others. It is highly likely she had nothing to do with this being officially over. He did. And she conveniently deleted all proof of what really occurred

(2) She said she wanted to R last week and then promptly lied to you . Your answer on her demands is that you are doing nothing until you believe there is something to salvage.

(3) She still has her private email account

(4) how does the fact that she first wanted to do damage control for AP this morning jive with being in love with you. He probably cut her off and right now you are plan B

The fact that she is still negotiating with you shows she does not get what she has done. She is also trying to avoid you going to work of OM with this information .so right now you are wrong if you think she has caved . When she caves, she will send the NC with you sitting there just to please you. She will stop worrying about the OM and giving you demands, and she will tell you she will do anything to restore your faith in her.

You need to give her the papers and tell her you will rip them up if you believe she really wants to be married to you and that you are not interested in being her call back because you may have ruined her affair.

She will then either cave or expose herself. But if you show weakness then you are still on her terms. Your conversation ended on a sour note because she did not get her way.

Her word that she has ended it should have no meaning. She is a proven liar and she made sure she could not prove it

Expose this mother fucking OM at work on Monday and give this bastard the grief he have you

And remember, nothing you did or didn't do in the marriage CAUSED her to decide to fuck another man. Her issues pale in comparison.

Sorry for the F word, but it was for emphasis so you won't forget what you're dealing with in any discussions with her.

PBST...

Please read what Badhurt wrote above over and over until you execute said plan.

And serve her at work.

This sucks and I am sorry but acting decisive early is the key.

Sounds like what you're doing is perfect in your situation. Your wife is still going to try and come out looking better.

but that she needs me to commit to addressing the problems in our marriage.

Sure, and the obvious problem in the marriage is her having some OM.

And problems before that are now miniscule actually. Because she could have addressed those problems before going out with some OM.

My wife's head still seems to be in the wrong place today. She spent the night at her mother's house and she keeps trying to reach out to me but only offers to "talk about my conditions and come to a reasonable solution that works for both of us". In other words, she still thinks this has to be a negotiation. She tells me that I'm being unreasonable and acting erratically, and that's why she needs space. I keep telling her that talking will do nothing, that she needs to demonstrate with actions that she's willing to commit to the conditions I've laid out. She is holding firm that she is only willing to talk about the conditions at this point.

I made the point that she hasn't done a single thing to demonstrate to me that her head is in the right place. She tried to take credit for ending it with her AP, but I told her she gets no credit for that since it was probably my "crazy" actions that ended it (for now), and she deleted the fucking conversation with him. She still believes that it was wrong of me to notify AP's wife and her dad and aunt. I told her I didn't regret doing that in the least bit.

I told her that she still just doesn't get it and ended the phone conversation.

She then sent me a text message saying that she realizes she needs to take action, but that there's "not much she can do before we talk". What is that supposed to mean?

PBST,

Your WW wants to state conditions to R for you to meet. Do you know why? Because in her mind she wants some gaurantee she won't come out of this whole situation as the only person holding the empty bag. Think about this very carefully before you even consider discussing terms for R or issues about the marriage. She wants an "emotional insurance policy" from you gauranteeing that her selfish actions won't be pushed fully into the light for all to see and that YOU will share in the blame for her A. This is what her intention is behind discussing marraige issues. Her words and actions now are all about self-preservation. She thinks me, me, me...what's in it for me!?!?

What you want is a remorseful individual who is willing to risk exposure of her actions to friends, family, and coworkers, accountability for the A, empathy for your suffering, willingness to do what it takes to help you heal and fix her broken despite the likeliness that she very well may lose it all regardless of the hard work.

It means the same as " welcome to my castle said the spider to the fly". She's not willing to accept your minimum conditions to consider R. OK, she's entitled,to,that. Her choice. You are not willing to negotiate her issues because she won't agree to your conditions. You are enttitled to that, too.

Let me give you a lawyer's tip. Negotiating/discussing her issues is a trap.

Can't you agree that we need to communicate better?

Well,,I guess that's fair....

I'm glad we agree on that

(She was just handed a complaint of you agree and now are violating your promise if in the next discussion she thinks you're not communicating).

She'll make her demands seems like reasonable, self evident propositions you can't disagree with. Yet she's storing ammo for,the next fight, even if it involves violating her NC agreement or whatever that never were negotiable.

Thus creating uncertainty in you during that next argument.

Trust me, I've been there many, many times in case negotiations. It is ALWAYS a trap.

There are only two,ways to avoid the trap. Well, three if you count refusal,to talk at all per North KoreanDiplomacy manual.

One, tell her that you are willing to discuss any topic but not until she agrees to your minimum conditions,since if they are not agreed to and adhered to, the M is over so her issues are then moot.

Two, tell her you can talk, but unless all points are agreed to, there is no deal on any of them and you will proceed D.

She'll like this one better, and you'll like it less, but she may never agree to method 1.

Remember or read about Vietnam peace talks in Paris? North knew US wanted out of the war in a face-saving way. North spent months negotiating the shape,of,the bargaining room table. Had zero to do with peace or war, it just made the process longer and the US more,desperate to reach an agreement to announce to the voting public. That's what her issues are--arguing over the shape of,the bargaining table. Your issue is peace or war. Renewed bombing finally moved the issue away from the shape of the table. Renewed 180 and D may move your issue to the forefront, too.

Does she negotiate for a living? If so, you are at a disadvantage. Consider what I've said here and remember your best protection against the trap is to always remember why you are talking: to see if she'll accept,or reject minimum conditions. Never forget that

Sorry about the random commas, but I'm on an iPad and not a keyboard

It means the same as " welcome to my castle said the spider to the fly". She's not willing to accept your minimum conditions to consider R. OK, she's entitled,to,that. Her choice. You are not willing to negotiate her issues because she won't agree to your conditions. You are enttitled to that, too.

Let me give you a lawyer's tip. Negotiating/discussing her issues is a trap.

Can't you agree that we need to communicate better?

Well,,I guess that's fair....

I'm glad we agree on that

(She was just handed a complaint of you agree and now are violating your promise if in the next discussion she thinks you're not communicating).

She'll make her demands seems like reasonable, self evident propositions you can't disagree with. Yet she's storing ammo for,the next fight, even if it involves violating her NC agreement or whatever that never were negotiable.

Thus creating uncertainty in you during that next argument.

Trust me, I've been there many, many times in case negotiations. It is ALWAYS a trap.

There are only two,ways to avoid the trap. Well, three if you count refusal,to talk at all per North KoreanDiplomacy manual.

One, tell her that you are willing to discuss any topic but not until she agrees to your minimum conditions,since if they are not agreed to and adhered to, the M is over so her issues are then moot.

Two, tell her you can talk, but unless all points are agreed to, there is no deal on any of them and you will proceed D.

She'll like this one better, and you'll like it less, but she may never agree to method 1.

Remember or read about Vietnam peace talks in Paris? North knew US wanted out of the war in a face-saving way. North spent months negotiating the shape,of,the bargaining room table. Had zero to do with peace or war, it just made the process longer and the US more,desperate to reach an agreement to announce to the voting public. That's what her issues are--arguing over the shape of,the bargaining table. Your issue is peace or war. Renewed bombing finally moved the issue away from the shape of the table. Renewed 180 and D may move your issue to the forefront, too.

Does she negotiate for a living? If so, you are at a disadvantage. Consider what I've said here and remember your best protection against the trap is to always remember why you are talking: to see if she'll accept,or reject minimum conditions. Never forget that

Sorry about the random commas, but I'm on an iPad and not a keyboard

I may just quit using the iPad to post. Random commas and double posts. Grrrrrrr

[This message edited by Schadenfreude at 11:33 AM, July 5th (Saturday)]

Her approach just isn't going to work. Negotiation instead of remorse, as if this is a business deal thats been discussed, not a marriage broken by infidelity.

She obviously doesn't understand her impact that making passionate love to the OM has had on your relationship. She minimizes her adultery, and is willing to talk about the future of your marriage in terms of how little she has to give in order to make you satisfied. In essence she is determined to control your relationship. No guilt, no shame, no remorse. How do you reconcile with such a selfish WW?

I think you have done very well in dealing with your wife's cynical manipulation. If she truly loved you there would be remorse instead of her reprehensible obsession with control.

Don't negotiate. Feel free to discuss marriage issues at length after she fixes her shit. Nothing to discuss except the business of separation until/unless.

The above posters are right Don't negotiate your M. If you believe your minimum requirements are justified (I assume they are and don't include your right to leave the toilet seat up for your convenience) they are either acceptable to her or not. Her choice, but not negotiable. Double D Treatment (Detachment and Divorce) are preferable to making your life a business deal.

My long double post above was only if you thought you'd agree to talk to her. Remember what I said -- its a trap.

Even if you withdraw the divorce petition i think your marriage is headed for limbo. She will rugsweep rather than face up to the damage she has inflicted on you and you will have this submerged resentment concerning her adultery and the lack of genuine remorse.

She will do enough to keep the marriage intact since the OM probably won't leave his family. The lack of trust and your unhappiness will not generate the relationship you deserve. You have some important decisions coming up about the kind of future you want.

Thank you everyone for your continued support. I am in a state of shock right now. I let my wife talk me into driving over to her mother's house (~20 minutes) so we could have a discussion about the conditions. We started talking about condition #1, which is that she sends a no-contact message to her affair partner, that I get to approve the message and watch her send it, and I get to see any response. The discussion lasted about 2 minutes and I got in the car and left. She wanted to skip that one and move on to the other conditions. She flat our refuses to send the NC message and can't give me a valid explanation. She says she already sent a no contact message using her work email and deleted it (so there's no way I can ever see it). She says it's silly to send another one. I told her I don't believe a word she's saying, and she needs to prove to me that she's not keeping the door open for him. She called me about 10 minutes later still trying to argue her point. I hung up on her. She called me right back and accused me of being irrational. I hung up again. She hasn't called back.

I thought the NC message would be the simplest and easiest of the conditions for her to accept. She either really is trying to keep the door open for him, or she has too much pride to perform this "embarrassing" task. It's one disappointment after another.

She probably doesn't want NC, and knows that condition will be broken in a New York minute. Smart negotiators don't agree to terms they know they'll never keep.

You did well. When no deal on NC (your minimum #1) you walked away from the bargaining table.

Lawyers tip #2: never enter negotiations unless you are willing to walk away. All too often, getting to a deal becomes more important than the deal's terms themselves during the heat of negotiation.

Detach, detach, detach.

Let her pay a price for her transgression. So what if she will now try to paint you as the unreasonable bad guy. You have to live with you, nobody else does.

I think it's safe to say, unless she can prove otherwise, the affair has officially gone underground. Until she can show that to you, she's still involved in her A. There's no other reason for her to not send NC and have complete transparency.

As Schadenfreude says detach detach detach.

File Mon. The only thing that may knock her off that fence is the D papers. And even then she might not. You have to let to of the outcome to save the M.

You are still doing very well.

yop

She sent me a text message saying that she will do it. I told her fine, but that I'm well aware that she can just talk to him at work and tell him to ignore everything she said. That's why conditions 2 (complete transparency--she gives me full access to all communications) and 5 (immediately start pursuing employment elsewhere) are non-negotiable.

She just sent me another message saying that she will not "talk about this 24/7." She says she needs time to herself and to spend time with me doing something else. How am I supposed to respond to that? Tell her that if she makes convincing effort to abide by all 5 conditions, it can be that way?

She just sent me another message saying that she will not "talk about this 24/7." She says she needs time to herself and to spend time with me doing something else. How am I supposed to respond to that? Tell her that if she makes convincing effort to abide by all 5 conditions, it can be that way?

Tell her TS. She has just no clue that an affair is wrong or that she did anything wrong.

She is acting as if she ruined dinner and you can just order a pizza and forget about it. She has an incredible amount to learn and the sooner she does it the better.

This is not about her at all and she needs to understand that. Going out with other guys is not just a minor mistake.

At the least have her read Not Just Friends. And maybe some other books. But she has to realize what the hell she really did cause here. She really has no clue as to the pain she has caused today and in the future. No BS just gets over it.

No, you tell her in plain, unmistakeable terms that unless and until she agrees to all 5 and shows compliance, there is nothing to talk about, nothing you want to do with her. Are your conditions the equivalent of cruel and unusual punishment to a truly remorseful WS? Think about that. What are you asking her to do that hundreds of WS's haven't done here?

Sorry, she's interested ONLY in manipulating you. NO MORE HB.

Not compatible with 180 for your mental health.

Who cheated on whom, btw? Never forget that. Who is in a position to resume the A on a minute's notice if thought to be sufficiently hidden?

The only card you can play is that for some reason, she doesn't want to be divorced. And that reason may be that she likes having Plan B in place ready to go if needed.

I'll bet you $100 to $1 that OM called off the active affair after his wife threatened to go Lorena Bobbett on him. You'll never know since WW conveniently erased all texts.

You can get a text retriever program. Download the information and if you can get ahold of WW's phone, use the program. Or, at a minimum, show the literature to WW and tell her you are installing it. Watch that phone get "lost" real soon. And if so, you know you owe me a dollar for losing the bet.

PBST2

You notice I hope that SHE keeps contacting you. That is because you are holding your ground. I agree she is still trying to hold onto the ability to keep this affair going. I am not a techie but grab the phone, refuse to give it back to her, and tell her you are taking it to tech specialist to retrieve the messages. Unless she knows that cannot be done, she will go ape shit, but may flat out confess to more.

I would double down and send OM wife and relatives ANOTHER message telling them your wife is still trying to keep this thing alive and that you apologize for being unable to control her disgusting behavior. DO NOT care what they think.

This is about convincing your wife she is NOT gong to rug sweep this.

There is absolutely nothing you and her need to be discussing right now because you do not believe she is going to keep this affair over and until you are convinced of that there is no negotiating anything.

You MUST expose this at their job, and hopefully their HR Department will step in.

Your wife still insists on her private e mail and refuses to do whatever is necessary. There is no real remorse except that she got caught red handed trying to keep this thing going, and all of her worry so far is about controlling the damage to HER reputation and her AP. To you there is anger. If you want to accept that you are nuts.

Go to the attorney on Monday and give her the papers . She must be out of that job and she does not want to quit it because she does not want to leave herself out of the ability to do what she wants.

Right now look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if you think she loves you and cares about you. I know the answer to that. She cares about you if she can have it her way.

Do t let that happen or you will be sorry