SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Seethe light- don't take on any pain that's not yours to own.

We have to accept their limitations or go our different ways.

Its do hard to make people see what is apparent to us but they either get it or don't.

I know, I'm in limbo with you, deciding if it is enough and it's very hard. But it is also our choice.

seethelight,

If your H sees your pain as punishment then he is not yet remorseful. This could have something to do with why you feel the need to make him see what you feel.

stl, Your thinking is too rigid for me, and that's my problem. I keep responding, however, because I think you'll benefit by loosening up your thinking.... (And I'm responding because I obviously like to write.)

What consequences do you think you can implement that will hurt your WS without hurting yourself?

My W lost her profession and income. That hurts me, too. RomanticInnocenc's H lost a promotion. That hurts her, too.

I give less to my W. I think I've always seen her flaws, but now I see her as a person who preferred hurting others to facing her own pain. I used to admire her. She was my moral beacon. Now, I've largely withdrawn my support in those areas (although she may be winning it back). People have to give as well as take, IMO, and in giving less, I lose.

I used to say ILY a lot. Now I say ILY very infrequently - I can't remember the last time I said it. In giving up that way of showing love, we both lose.

Again, what consequences do you think you can implement that will hurt your WS without hurting you?

Maybe just the guilt and shame would be enough. If they felt any, that is.

[I, like an idiot, have 'rewarded' my WS by responding to his new-found passion for our relationship.]

stl, Your thinking is too rigid for me, and that's my problem. I keep responding, however, because I think you'll benefit by loosening up your thinking.... (And I'm responding because I obviously like to write.)

Sisoon you are entitled to your opinion and I enjoy reading your posts, even if I don't always agree.

Too rigid in what respect specifically?

I give less to my W. I think I've always seen her flaws, but now I see her as a person who preferred hurting others to facing her own pain.

I used to admire her. She was my moral beacon. Now, I've largely withdrawn my support in those areas (although she may be winning it back). People have to give as well as take, IMO, and in giving less, I lose.

I have no argument with that. I felt the same about my spouse, and see him the same. And, IMO, I do give and take. My problem is I feel I give more now and also gave more prior to his affair.

I used to say ILY a lot. Now I say ILY very infrequently - I can't remember the last time I said it. In giving up that way of showing love, we both lose.

I agree that you are losing with that behavior.

And I could not be withholding in that way because I am a very spontaneous and affectionate person. I like to be affectionate, and not saying I love you, in the moments when I do feel love for my wayward spouse, would be too rigid for me.

If I had to withhold affection, I would be gone.

I say I love you to my wayward when the feeling spontaneously strikes me, and I do love my spouse, but just not the same ways as prior to his affair.

There's an uncomfortable wariness associated with it, now. One that makes me sad. Anger left me a long time ago, replace by sadness.

Again, what consequences do you think you can implement that will hurt your WS without hurting you?

Sisoon:

If you read my response to Sister Milkshake I very specifically outlined what I would deem a good consequence.

It is one I believe is a teachable moment. A moment in which someone suffers a consequence that will allow them to experience the pain they caused someone and in a way that will perhaps reform them.

I do think that people learn lessons about the ways they treat other by experiencing the other person's pain.

I don't see how that experience that I describe to sister milkshake, could really hurt me in any way or cause me to lose anything.

But, I realize that type of experience is not available on the earth plane. At least not, yet.

So as others have plainly stated, the consequence I deem fair remains a fantasy only.

I do realize that, too, as do others. That the consequence they deem fair, can only remain a fantasy.

Maybe just the guilt and shame would be enough. If they felt any, that is.

Cordelia:

I agree, if they actually feel the guilt and shame, that likely enough. I am not always certain, based on his actions, that my wayward does feel guilt.

I do think he feels shame, but it's mainly manifested as efforts to cover up the affair as a way to preserve his nice-guy image.

[I, like an idiot, have 'rewarded' my WS by responding to his new-found passion for our relationship.]

Nicely phrased, Cordelia.

Most days I do feel like an huge idiot for responding to my waywards new-found passion for our relationship.

And, I often distrust it. Kinda' sad.

If you read my response to Sister Milkshake I very specifically outlined what I would deem a good consequence.

It is one I believe is a teachable moment. A moment in which someone suffers a consequence that will allow them to experience the pain they caused someone and in a way that will perhaps reform them.

I do think that people learn lessons about the ways they treat other by experiencing the other person's pain.

I don't see how that experience that I describe to sister milkshake, could really hurt me in any way or cause me to lose anything.

It hurts you because for it to be a consequence, you have to visit it on him as one. Otherwise, it isn't a loved one teaching a valuable lesson because it's simply cause and effect, not agency. Organic, natural consequences are only consequences if the people suffering them consider it as such.

Further, the concept of 'fair' is a fallacy. life isn't fair. If you want it to zero out, then you go cheat on him. That comes with the obvious cost, though.

Your husband is not a child. Barring the fact that pressing a childs hand to a radiator is utterly unnecessary on its own, an adult should be well enough aware of the suffering inflicted on his/her partner sufficiently that capital punishment isn't even on the map. That isn't a relationship, it's a warden-prisoner situation - people who avoid behaviors due to the negative connotations aren't being prevented from wrongdoing, they're being taught to avoid being caught - because they should be aware that those actions are wrong and hurtful and avoid them for those reasons alone.

Relying on "his dick will fall off" as a hypothetical takes the lesson away from "Why this is a shitty thing to do to someone" to "This is the bad thing that will happen" and most people presented with that second scenario will just try to figure out how to avoid the negative consequences - because the moral and ethical considerations were not the primary motivation, the punishment was.

If you want to inflict pain to teach a lesson, that's your opinion and your call. Everyone has a different measure of pain, though - taping a couple of broken toes together to go back to the gym the next day isn't an option for some people. Some people may not even feel it enough to think it's painful at all. The lesson in pain is just something that has to be constantly monitored and adjusted - and that, by definition, is nothing short of torture.

If someone can't empathize enough to see the damage caused and desire to help heal, then that person is not someone you can ever have a relationship with. No matter how much you train a dog that bites your kid you still can't trust it around your kids. It's simply too dangerous. That is also a good reason why we don't apply that thinking to people - because people are (supposedly at least) more than that. If someone can't or won't be more than that, I can't see the reason for sticking around anyway.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 3:43 PM, August 11th (Monday)]

good post, stillgoing...

If you want it to zero out, then you go cheat on him.

really doesn't even the score at all, unless the BS is willing and ready to sell their soul to punish another person.

[I, like an idiot, have 'rewarded' my WS by responding to his new-found passion for our relationship.]

Most days I do feel like an huge idiot for responding to my waywards new-found passion for our relationship.

I think you can make these changes in a positive way for yourself, not for the WS.

Causing your spouse pain for the sake of some twisted sense of justice doesn't sound terribly functional to me. What happened, happened. There is the world we live in and the world we wish existed. I choose the real world.

I believe my WW is demonstrating true remorse. However, I know that nothing is guaranteed. Building a new and better M together is not a reward, it is what I choose to do. That the A was a catalyst for the positive changes in her, me and our M doesn't make them any less positive or less desirable to me.

That isn't a relationship, it's a warden-prisoner situation - people who avoid behaviors due to the negative connotations aren't being prevented from wrongdoing, they're being taught to avoid being caught - because they should be aware that those actions are wrong and hurtful and avoid them for those reasons alone.

This. A thousand times this.

And it was the reason why I didn't check emails, or his phone, or anything else. I never signed up to be a prison warden. If he couldn't get the magnitude of what he had done, it was time for D. Pure and simple.

Yep, rachael. That's the obvious cost.

eta:

FWIW, I did spend a lot of time checking email, texts, etc. Ultimately what it did was reinforce, to me, the reality of no contact, all in, et al. Eventually I stopped, because the internal narrative realigned to that, if it makes any sense to say it that way.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 5:25 PM, August 11th (Monday)]

Still going and others:

For those who believe there should be no consequence for cheating.

You do realize that that is simply YOUR opinion.

It's an interesting opinion, and perhaps one that makes you feel good about your choices, but it is not one that is shared by sociologists or psychologists.

It's also the reason why society has rules and when they are broken people suffer consequences.

If consequences did not produce results there would be none for anything.

But, even some posting here who have claimed they want no consequence have given a consequence to their wayward spouse.

For example, some who responded have divorced...a consequence....some have had revenge affairs.....a consequence.....Some say they no longer tell their spouse they love them as often as they used to, or or ever.....a consequence.

In the end though, in my opinion, if you all are happy with your choices then that is cool.

I am all about people having choices and choosing to do whatever helps them heal.

I can even understand a revenge affair being a fair consequence.

It is not something I have chosen to do, because the idea of having an affair turns me off, but I can fully understand someone doing that.

And, more importantly, I would not judge them, or attempt to convince them otherwise, if that is what they felt they needed to do to heal.

I don't want to get into too much of a flame war, because I know that all of us are going through a bit of hell, so the flames from each other are nothing compared to RL circumstances. That said...

It's also the reason why society has rules and when they are broken people suffer consequences.

If consequences did not produce results there would be none for anything.

This isn't necessarily true. The purpose of society rules is to protect the weak from the strong. Yes, we wish our WS had chosen a different path - but consequences weren't going to matter. Countless times, an affair might start with both spouses knowing that the consequence might be the loss of their marriage, and utter devastation to their family, including their children. Yet they choose to do it anyway. Again and again, even if they have the time to reflect on the potential outcome. The consequences don't matter. If they did, many affairs wouldn't start.

However, I think there is a consequence that matters: remorse.

But, even some posting here who have claimed they want no consequence have given a consequence to their wayward spouse.

I think you are hearing what you want to hear. A remorseful wayward spouse suffers intense consequences -- it is the textbook definition of remorse. That's far different that wanting to cause additional pain for the sake of "justice" or revenge. If you claim you love your wayward spouse, why would you intentionally want them to suffer? If you don't love them, why are you staying with them?

I can even understand a revenge affair being a fair consequence.

It is not something I have chosen to do, because the idea of having an affair turns me off, but I can fully understand someone doing that.

Is that love? Maybe it is me that is messed up.

And, more importantly, I would not judge them, or attempt to convince them otherwise, if that is what they felt they needed to do to heal.

So you say, but you are judging people who have affairs for every.single.other.reason. Only revenge affairs should have no consequence?!

The purpose of society rules is to protect the weak from the strong.

A criminal that robs people or burglarizes their homes is not strong, he is just refusing to follow the rules.

A white collar criminal who embezzles money is not strong, he is simply greedy or too lazy to earn money the old fashioned way or may feel entitled to taking someone elses money, but I don't see someone like that as strong, do you?

So you say, but you are judging people who have affairs for every.single.other.reason. Only revenge affairs should have no consequence?!

I am saying actions should have consequences.

Did I say a revenge affair should have no consequence.

A revenge affair is a consequence of an affair, sometimes.

But, did I say a revenge affair should have no consequence? Did I say I thought a revenge affair was a good idea or even a good consequence?

I said I could understand the logic for a revenge affair. The logic, IMO, is obvious.

Please feel free to continue the discussion. This is after all a discussion....I hope?

That is the purpose of posting my question to open a dialog.

A criminal that robs people or burglarizes their homes is not strong, he is just refusing to follow the rules.

A white collar criminal who embezzles money is not strong, he is simply greedy or too lazy to earn money the old fashioned way or may feel entitled to taking someone elses money, but I don't see someone like that as strong, do you?

Strong is this sense doesn't always mean physical strength. It means power. Even the burglar is using his power (stealth, skills, timing) to take from someone who is unprotected and needs protection.

As for the rest... I guess I just don't see the need to punish the way others do. It must be the way I'm wired. Perhaps I'll be repeatedly cheated on because of it. Who knows?

Strong is this sense doesn't always mean physical strength. It means power. Even the burglar is using his power (stealth, skills, timing) to take from someone who is unprotected and needs protection.

Didact:

I agree with that statement.

As for the rest... I guess I just don't see the need to punish the way others do. It must be the way I'm wired.

Well, I respect that well-stated opinion. I do think a lot of things within people may come down to personal wiring.

For my part, I can see that my husband only started to "get it" to any degree, not even fully, the negative impact of his affair, when I packed his bags, put them by the door and filed.

I am not at all sure, he really gets it fully, yet.

I am hopeful though, but unsure and that is why divorce is still on the table. It all depends on his actions. ....consistent actions over time.

Good actions have consequences, too.......good consequences.

Perhaps I'll be repeatedly cheated on because of it. Who knows?

Didact, I really don't think that will happen to you.

One good consequence of an affair for the loyal spouse is now finally we are no longer naive and very clued into the issues leading to affairs or the signals of someone having an affair.

Even if we were to divorce a wayward spouse, we may be better at seeing the characteristics in a person that would make them unlikely to cheat.

In retrospect, there were a lot of clues all through my marriage that my husband could cheat.....boundary issues, a need for approval from everyone, many narcissistic traits as pointed out by the MC, insisting on Men's only activities. Associating with people who were not friends of the marriage.

So, Didact, I think you will not be destined to be cheated on because you are stronger, now, IMO, and at the very least more aware.

Personally, I do think that people can commit an objectionable action once and then truly regret it, and then work to correct it.

Indeed.

I hope it works for both of us :)

Hmm... I wonder if this maybe where your thinking doesn't align with some of the other posters and myself (not saying it should, just furthering the discussion)

Good actions have consequences, too.......good consequences

really? Always? I know in my life, I gave everything to WH, loved him with everything I could, was there when he needed me, listened to him, did his laundry, shared in the chores etc etc etc, and my consequences were that he cheated. I worked my butt off to work a full time job in a school whilst I studied my teaching degree believing that it would give me an edge to getting a job. I made good grades and I was respected by my colleagues. My consequences were that I still couldn't find a job when I graduated. Good things don't happen to good people and bad people don't always get theirs. It's the truth of life unfortunately.

Now on another post you said

But, even some posting here who have claimed they want no consequence have given a consequence to their wayward spouse.

I actually can't remembering anyone posting that their WS should have no consequences. Maybe I'm wrong. But it feels more like to me that you need an external consequence, that internal or natural consequences don't satisfy your need for justice. If your WH isn't showing remorse, I can understand probably why, but if that's the case, I'm not sure why you stay. Ok, not everyone can leave but then why engage with him as a wife? I wonder sometimes if you are angry at yourself for staying or resenting the feeling that you have to.

Stillgoing made a lot of sense to me. Yes we have societal rules to keep the populace in check, but we still break the rules everyday in many ways. Do you jwalk? You can get a fine for that, but I still do it anyway and I consider myself a very moral and honest person. It's not the external consequence that would stop me doing it, but if I had the understanding that I was hurting someone by doing it, then I would absolutely stop and feel remorseful for being so self involved. I'd be mortified and it would mean more to me then getting a fine.

I work in education, and sociology and psychology are changing in terms of how to create a school environment that promotes respect, fairness, caring etc. There is a reason we no longer have capital punishment. When a child graffitis the wall we don't give him a suspension but make him clean it off in their own time. The consequence is a natural one, if you graffiti then you have to clean it off and you lose your own lunch time and you must make amends, either by apologising to the principal, the class, their parents etc. It drives home the lesson much more effectively then giving them detention, or by doing it back to them, which only causes anger and resentment. An eye for an eye will eventually cause everyone to go blind.