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To continue the conversation without further TJing Gemmy's thread...

DRSOOLERS:

See, the problem we have here is a massive contradiction: we are essentially being told, "Don't trust my words or actions from when I was privately discussing my actual thoughts, wants, and feelings. Instead, only trust my statements now that I've been caught out and proven to be a liar."

​So, when waywards are caught texting their APs, claiming they are masturbating over thoughts of how amazing their sex was—are we supposed to believe those were all lies? Or were they actually self-pleasing, but somehow only doing it for the "validation"? Sexting is extraordinarily common in affairs. If it really is all just about validation, are we honestly expected to believe they never truly self-pleased? Or can we be serious adults and admit the organs... The sex... Ahs somewhat of a role. At least often.

I understand what you're saying, and I can see why you would have a hard time trusting the words of a caught WS...

One thing I think is pertinent is that there's a difference between being turned on by another person (finding them sexy/reactive libido,) being turned on by being found/feeling sexy (which a lot of women need to even experience a desire for sex), and just being turned on in general (spontaneous libido)... What you hear often on SI is "the AP could have been anyone," and that applies here too. I think it's quite easy for WS to idealize the AP in their minds-- really make them into someone they're not-- because it's all fantasy. It's often not the AP themselves, but the idea that the WS has of them in their heads, and the way that idealized person makes the WS feel.

So, in some scenarios it's that the WS is given validation and "thinks of England" during the sex, which they have to keep the validation coming. In others, it's that the AP makes them feel sexually validate/sexy, and they experience reactive libido, and the AP just becomes an outlet for it. In others... The WS values both the sex and the validation, or just the sex.

Nuance.

Please feel free to let this thread wander away from the topic at hand as the conversation naturally progresses, as I'm not here looking for support but interested in pursuing potentially useful discussions and furthering understanding.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 8:15 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]

It’s an interesting topic.

My only comment so far is this:

being turned on by being found/feeling sexy (which a lot of women need to even experience a desire for sex)

I mostly only experience this kind of arousal. It can come from feeling loved or appreciated but this is what I respond sexually to. I also am turned on by knowing what my husband likes and being the provider of it or slipping in surprises and seeing his reaction but mostly it’s all about me, my performance, etc. I think Esther Pearl wrote about this? I don’t agree with everything that she says but this combined with "wanting to meet a different version of oneself" as a motivator for an affair both hit the nail for me.

The validation for me was that someone was believing my version, after all it’s like you said people who have affairs often project things onto each other. I liked the feeling of being someone different. The fantasy for me was about me.

I'll move my post over here because it was a bit of a thread jack and will likely get lost in the sea of replies happening over in Gemmy's thread. This topic is hard on my mind because my wife and I had a discussion about this just the other day and it's been stuck in my craw.

My wife admitted that she wanted the sex as much as the validation. Maybe even more than the validation. Which makes logical sense because we had been going through a pretty long dry spell. The SSRI I was on not only killed my libido, but as an added bonus gave me anorgasmia (raises hand as a male who's faked orgasms).

I'm still trying to figure out which "reason" hurts more, or if it even matters. What really kills me is, I could have researched and found out much sooner that the SSRI was causing my issues instead of aging and gotten off of it much sooner. My wife also went through menopause at around the same time and never once complained about the lack of sex. As far as I knew, she'd lost interest as many women do when going through that. I had chalked it all up to "I guess this is what happens when some couples get older."

Boy, was I wrong. Menopause had the opposite effect on my wife. Her libido was supercharged while mine disappeared. She was/is craving it constantly. Meanwhile, I was suffering from well documented (but hardly ever mentioned by prescribing Dr's) side effects of SSRIs. Some real great communication we had, huh?

It took a couple of years for some of the more persistent side effects of the SSRI to go away, and some of it still lingers. Yes, years. Look up PSSD. My libido is finally back, but the anorgasmia only started letting up within the last year, and that's gone from not being able to climax at all to just taking a long time, which has actually kind of turned into a superpower.

Anyway, I'm not so sure how much the reason really matters. What really pisses me off is that we had such a serious lack of communication. I should have known. I should have known it meant that much to her. She should have talked to me about it instead of going to someone else. Maybe I should have just plain known she felt like she was in a sexual desert. I should have cared enough to ask her. I feel such a swirl of emotions and hurt over this. It's not like our sex life sucks now. It's daily, and we don't do quickies. I'm a generous lover. We got ot bed an hour and a half earlier than we need to just to budget time for it now.

I was stripped of my desire by a drug, and blamed it on getting older or low T or something, and she never really blinked an eye. I never turned her down or said "no," but I had always initiated. I just slowly kind of stopped initiating, and she never really reacted to it. At least not with me, but she jumped on the first guy who came along and started tossing compliments her way.

It's been over a year, and by every metric pretty much everything has improved between us, especially sex, but goddamnit if I can't get it out of my head that my wife, who was a virgin when we met, let another man pleasure her. It fucking kills me sometimes.

Well done, Morbs. Thank you.

Pogre,

It's easy to get caught up in the "should haves," and I feel your pain there. (Mine looks like, "I should have considered what might be affecting his libido and not taken personally...I should have asked him about it. I should have been more persistent.I should have known he knew about the A and that was causing him to withdarw further.").. As always, it's not your fault, and I'm sorry you're hurting. It will probably just take you some time to accept the "didn'ts," if that makes any sense, but I think it helps to focus on what you know now and what will be different going forward.

Experience can be such a cruel teacher.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 10:11 PM, Wednesday, July 1st]