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I had an opportunity to meet our MC alone.. and we talked about us, H and the M.

her words about H was that he is very narcissistic (not sure this qualifies for NPD diagnosis or just some narcissistic traits) and acts out in passive agressive manner..

that he has been ignored as a child and therefore had his defence mehanism to take care of himself - like me me me always first.. that this defence mehanism has been very strong and is still there and now does the opposite - basically destroys his life by him being narcissistic.. that he needs to learn to love properly and to be loved properly..

then i asked her if she thinks he is making progress.. after a long pause she said - she thinks he is.. then she said that he is a smart man and if he continues doing the work the progress will follow.

from what have i read i see that narcissism cannot be cured / changed and that somewhat scares me.. as my IC (whom i have started to see recently also referred to H as narcissistic...). has anyone had similar assesments and a person has been able to change significantly?

then she went ahead about me giving to him to build him up etc etc... I asked about the balance because most of the times it is me giving and it all falls into the black hole.. she said that the expectation is when he is strong enough he will be able to give back.. people who have been with narcissistic people - do you ever get anything back???

So, was there a real diagnosis? Do you think that your H is NPD?

As to narcissists, I have never been with anyone that was diagnosed with NPD, but an ex that I left in 2007 definitely had all the symptoms and fits the diagnosis very well. If I am correct, he has it pretty bad.

He was able to learn to act as if he cared, to mimic things I tried to teach him so that he could basically sound caring, but he never really got it. We spoke on the phone a fair bit in 2009, until I realized I didn't want a friendship of any sort with him.

It is so tricky to understand what is wrong with some damaged people (or ourselves!). The more i learn about personality disorders, the less I think I know. I recently started reading about Borderline Personality Disorder, and saw my more recent X described perfectly.

I think people CAN and DO change, if they WANT to. One thing that a lot of these personality disorders seem to have in common is a very difficult, or lonely, or uneven childhood. Defense mechanisms go haywire, and the person that develops does not know how to love.

That is tough to change, I would think. I used to think that all someone like that needed was to be loved. But now I am not so sure.

what she said that he is very narcissistic and has very narcissistic outlook. she did not give diagnosis - i think for that probably more is required.. but not sure.. I am transferring here her words (so i dont add anything form myself :))..

My father is diagnosed NPD.

He can give back but only when it suits him to ie. he will get something from it.

He has been married 3 times and had thousands of gf's (no exaggeration - he's 64 and is still going strong with the women.)

He told me when I was 8 that it was my fault that he wasn't "living in his Parisian appt and that he could easily hate me for that but luckily he wasn't like that". And if it wasnt for me he wouldnt be "saddled" with my mother. Who was nothing but a guttersnipe until he met her. He wasn't angry or anything when he said it. He was matter of fact.

There is a myriad of other things but is a good example of the things he would say off the cuff every day.

He has literally distoyed my mothers life. He made it his mission to do that and he did. He syphoned money and assets out of the marriage during numerous false R's and kept her on a string until he had what he wanted then he ripped the rug out from under her in the most hideous way. I am the only child she has contact with because he steadfastly poisoned my sisters minds over a number of years. There is so much more, and its all absolutely horrifying. And he feels COMPLETELY ENTITLED to have done every single bit of it.

If your WS gets a diagnosis my advice is to run far and fast. NPD = black hole.

Big hugs,

Sammie

[This message edited by sammie at 5:46 AM, September 3rd (Friday)]

I was raised by a narcissist, and have a personality disordered husband (and I always thought that Freudian stuff was for the birds )

I suspected personality disorder in my husband for a very long time, and had been told, fairly informally (as you were), that there were traits evident. I knew of his family history (in fact, I've known him since I was 15, so I witnessed a lot of what went on in his household growing up), and it was long obvious that his needs surpassed mine---and to me, it was obvious why. (He was horrendously exploited and abused as a child. His needs were never met---and he was belittled, berated, and scapegoated within his family.)

And he saw no problem whatsoever--for years and years. (Even now, post-diagnosis, he has a frightening lack of insight into how his behavior affects others.)

After our last D-day, I insisted on a diagnosis based on objective testing interpreted by a behaviorist and psychiatrist very skilled in diagnosing personality disorder. He had been tremendously resistant--for years. Destructively, angrily resistant. This time, he recognized, albeit briefly, that there were huge problems with his behavior; this motivated him to accept the testing.

The testing told me exactly what I already knew. Seriously, he handed me the psych report and said, "You were right." (There has never been a time--ever--when I least wanted to be right.)

But test results didn't really clarify my life path for me. Will he get better? Maybe, a little--if he's really motivated. Can he learn to interact more appropriately? Maybe, a little, if he's really motivated. Can he learn to care, and to have empathy and feel remorse? A lot iffier. Behaviors can be learned--feelings are trickier. Can our marriage improve? Yes--but here's how: if I accept him just the way he is and reframe all of my expectations to fit reality. Can I do that? At this point, I really don't think so.

Most people with personality disorders really don't see the problem with themselves---it's always someone else. And even if they do have glimpses of clarity--which many do---it does not tend to translate into long-term behavioral changes. If you don't really see a problem, you just don't have a heck of a lot of motivation to make big changes to improve a situation you don't think is that bad to begin with.

Aside from the general difficulty in getting a diagnosis (getting a PD individual tested can be extraordinarily tricky), you have to consider what you will do with the information.

For me, knowing what I am living with accomplished two things. First, it helped undo a couple of decades of gaslighting. It reframed my experiences. (On the flip side, it has required me to very painfully reframe all that I believed to be true, as well as examine my hopes and dreams and expectations--none of which will now come true.)

Knowing has also given me important information for decision-making. The decisions have not made themselves--it's still very, very painful. But as things unfold, and months go by post D-day, and I see the very limited way in which he is able to respond to my pain...well, I can see how my needs are going to be met. And this gives me a glimpse of my future---which helps guide my decision-making.

I'm just sharing this because I know how difficult personality disorders are to cope with, as a spouse. But I think it's really important that someone very qualified make the assessment, using accepted tools rather than general impressions.

I also think it's really important to find a behaviorist very skilled in treating the personality disordered; I think your MC's advice about feeding your husband's narcissistic supply as a means of eventually having your needs met (a) asks you to make unreasonable changes, and (b) might be--if he is genuinely narcissistic--really, really misguided. Why? Because that's not how it works. If he really has NPD, feeding into it will NOT help meet YOUR needs. It will feed the monster.

You can't fill his black hole--you just can't. And trying can be harmful to you--cause you to sublimate your own needs--and have really undesirable results.

I have found a great deal of support and good, solid information at www.outofthefog.net---it is a site devoted to those living with individuals (parents, sibs, spouses, etc) with personality disorders.

MelisssaZZZ,

Thanks so much for starting this thread! I am supposed to meet with WH's IC next week or so.

then she said that he is a smart man and if he continues doing the work the progress will follow.

This is exactly what WH's IC told him. This spooks me, it makes it sound so easy! My WH hasn't been diagnosed (I think his IC is not big on diagnoses, just the behavior).

On the other hand, my husband is basically selfish. And he has learned through all this how GIVING has its own joys and rewards.

I think people are basically who they are and don't change that much. BUT that 5% that they CAN and DO change can make all the difference.

Was married to one for thirteen years.

she was never diagnosed as such because she was too full of herself to ever accept there could be a problem.

Through the years, I learned you could never give enough. No matter how much you do, no matter how much should give, no matter how much you try, it's never enough.

it's always all about them. And as the other poster mentioned, even when they give , they expect something in return.

I can certainly understand why it might be believed that this is an incurable.