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I'm bouncing off the walls here. What if there is something intrinsically wrong with me? It happens. People are born hard wired a certain way.

But even writing that feels like a cop out.

I have such an incredibly long history of lying when it is convenient born of an upbringing where lying was a prerequisite for living, and I'm just not sure I can change that. It is as ingrained in me as breathing.

Lying to keep everyone else happy isn't second nature to me. It's first nature. I'm a certified specialist in keeping other people happy. I can pretend and pretend and pretend all day long, and no one will ever in a million years know, including me.

And all this post A smiling and caring and being all over my BH's needs is just more pretending. Which, since I am very, very good at it, is working.

But the hollowness in me is still there. When I look at the future I think "I had best stay away from high places and sharp knives." (that was a joke)

I am still so ripe for the picking that I've more or less imprisoned myself in my house.

What if I am just not cut out to be married? I've been married for 25 years and with my BH for 35. That seems like enough time for any one person to be with someone else. My kids are basically done. I did a great job, and the pronoun is deliberate. I was basically a single parent. My H has good relationships with the kids but not nearly as close as I am with them. I've discussed my A with all of them and they don't seem to hate me for it.

What's the point from here on out? What does a good M look like? I've never seen one.

I don't have a single friend who much likes their H or is happy with their M. Everyone is tolerating and settling. I am not at all social, but when I went on a spring break trip with my high school senior I was absolutely astonished at how incredibly unhappy in their M's so many of the mothers I had never met before were. It was an eye opener.

What if it isn't that I.Just.Don't.Care. What if it is I.Just.Don't.Love.Him., and not because of anything about him, but because I am constitutionally incapable of intimacy? I don't even really understand what love is in a M.

I try so hard to do the right thing. SO hard. Wherever that leads me, I want to do the right thing. And I wonder if trying to fix the M is the right thing. Am I capable of being the kind of wife that my integrity requires that I be?

And if I am, and that is a huge ass IF, where does that land me?

There is nothing 'wrong with you. Its like that saying goes 'God don't make no junk'.

Our behavior was wrong. The A and lying is wrong, but we can change, especially when we start to look at where it is coming from. I don't know the answers to your hard questions about where your marriage stands, but no matter what, you are a valuable person and worthy of love, especially from yourself and God.

I don't know if you have ever read the book The Drama of the Gifted Child. If not, you might want to check it out and see if any of it relates to your past.

In my opinion mature love is a choice. I am not speaking of the infatuation in the early stages of romance. I am also speaking of self love, which is important to the type of love in a marriage.

Yesterday, my BW, whom has been so hurt by my actions over the past many years, came to me with compassion and real love. She told me that she was worried about my drinking. I have been self medicating for awhile now. She came to me despite her fear of me, I have been abusive to her for sometime. That is LOVE. I chose to accept her love. My wife also shows me she loves me by simply being here, after all of the abuse, the ONS's. I realized that I did not love myself, let alone my wife.

But the hollowness in me is still there. When I look at the future I think "I had best stay away from high places and sharp knives." (that was a joke)

I am still so ripe for the picking that I've more or less imprisoned myself in my house.

In my opinion, you have a lot of issues. Most having to do with your self image. I share these with you. I have made a choice today to do things for myself that are healthy. I have chosen to accept my Wife's love. I have realized that there is an emptiness in me. I have also realized that no one in the world can take that emptiness away, except me.

I started yesterday to try and love my wife, by simply looking at her face and seeing how beautiful she is. I listened to her when she spoke, I mean really listened. I made us dinner. Later we read together and talked into the evening. I chose to love her yesterday and will again today. I am choosing to not do something today that will keep me in the shame mode I have been in. Which prevents love from existing.

In brief, I have chosen to take care of my issues. I understand that love is something that must be tended to and cared for. It just doesn't exist in a void.

I am very lucky to have my wife. Who has been here throughout my terror campaign against her. I am so fortunate to have this woman in my life. I had been looking for this love in all kinds of other ways and missed it, because I couldn't see the forest for the trees. The trees being my own issues.

I don't know if this helps. You may go and keep trying to find "love", but I think it will elude you. I think you are looking for that mad "feeling" of love that takes place in the first part of a relationship. The kind you get your "highs" from. The reality is that it changes and must be tended and cared for to survive. All of your friends that are in the marriages they tolerate are in the same boat.

Weigh it out. Do you find enough in your husband to love him? If the answer is yes, tend to yourself first. Take care of your problems. Learn to love yourself, then you will be able to choose to love your husband.

To say what onanewpath said...You are a valuable human being. You are not bad, your behavior has been bad. Seperate the human from the behavior. Realize that you can change your behavior. You then can learn to love yourself and put boundaries into place. Then you can do the work necessary to have love for another human being.

hopefulwife, that's an amazing post. It's honest and I can tell you if you're anything like you write I would like you immediately. No bullshit with you and a great sense of humor.

I came from an environment like yours where lying was a prerequisite. I never would. Not because I'm superior, but because at a very young age I realized it enraged my mother to see who I was and that was my preverse reward. I won't even go into the punishments that ensued, but I was fighting like hell for my individual survival.

You are dead on...it becomes as ingrained in you as breathing.

There's nothing wrong with you. Your hollowness is there because you've never embraced yourself and fought for yourself. You abandoned yourself to go over to the "other side" when you were little leaving no one in your corner.

It's time. You see it. You're at a point in your life now that you can focus on yourself and start the work in healing and growing.

It's tough and scary, but the rewards are unbelievable.

What does a good marriage look like? Two people that love, cherish, respect, support each other. That can be made up of all races, genders, interests, intellects. It will look as different as there are people.

The question is what does your good marriage look like? Can you partner with your husband to build that? Can you start by showing him this post?

(((hugs))).

Your post is right on target. I asked myself EXACTLY what you are asking yourself. Just the fact that you are asking means you have insight. I think IC would be a very good place to be to pick through all of this!

Kwills

If anyone can turn from the vicious shrew I was in my mid-twenties to the relatively nice and decent person I was by my mid-thirties, anyone can.

S'all I'm saying.

Can you start by showing him this post?

Now there's a radical thought. I am far more likely to sprout wings and fly off to Never-Never Land.

The idea of anyone I'm not paying actually knowing what's going on in my head is existentially terrifying. While I know intellectually that that is extremely common with daughters of mothers with narcissistic personality disorder, I can't seem to shake it emotionally. Uncertainone, I admire you. I fought back when I was little way more than my siblings -- looking back, I was trying to reconcile the dissonance between what I was being told and what I was experiencing from a very early age -- but when I surrendered to my mother, it was a complete surrender. She dropped by yesterday saying "I want to at least see you once a week" which may be the first passive/aggressive drop by in history. Ruined my whole day -- one reason I'm in so much turmoil right now. It always takes me a couple of days to recover from exposure to my mother. I AM A 50 YEAR OLD, HIGHLY EDUCATED INTELLIGENT WOMAN. Why does she still have power?

I've been in IC for years and am at a stuck point there too.

I need to either take the plunge and a start telling H stuff or decide not to and accept the deal tacitly on the table -- he'll let me up over the A if I'll let him up for all his stuff before the A.

And then I'll have another A and then we'll divorce and it will be way uglier than it needs to be.

Or I'll limp along until I die.

I had a Jesuit priest tell me one time in response to my outlining a problem "Welcome to adulthood. All your choices suck."

I read The Drama of the Gifted Child many years ago at my psychiatrist's suggestion. Bought it, went and ordered lunch, read the first chapter, burst into tears and ran out of the restaurant. I still remember what I ordered. Some stuff sticks with you.

I can't think how I would even start a conversation about this. I'm not even sure I know why I want to have a conversation about this. Why not just leave it alone?

Right now I know he knows something is going on with me and I'm sure that worries him re: OM. It feels mean to let him worry so I've been busily inventing plausible lies to tell him about why I'm so preoccupied, but so far haven't told him anything.

I did consider googling OM last night and went up and had sex with him instead. Felt a bit like using him, but I figured if he knew he would think I made the right choice.

I think maybe even if I didn't start out that way, I'm just too broken.

I also think that I would like you if you really are like you write too.

I am far more likely to sprout wings and fly off to Never-Never Land.

I laughed out loud at that.

And I also freaked when I read Drama of the Gifted Child too.

I'm not even sure I know why I want to have a conversation about this. Why not just leave it alone?

Because its bothering you to the point that you are starting to make up lies in your head to avoid confrontation. You can do it. Own your feelings. Share with him. If he can't handle it, then that will tell you something. But don't hide from your feelings anymore.

You are not too broken!! Noone ever is.

Edited because my typing skills are less than satisfactory.

[This message edited by onanewpath at 6:30 PM, September 5th (Sunday)]

While I know intellectually that that is extremely common with daughters of mothers with narcissistic personality disorder, I can't seem to shake it emotionally. Uncertainone, I admire you.

Oh, hopefulwife, don't admire me. I was just born ornery and I refused to let her win. She "bought me" and never let me forget it. I wanted her to think she got a raw deal and she did

I don't think you're too broken, sweetie. I think you're tired. Having a narcissistic mother is horrible. People use that word a lot to describe people, but anyone that has truly experienced one has the scars deep and fresh.

I need to either take the plunge and a start telling H stuff or decide not to and accept the deal tacitly on the table -- he'll let me up over the A if I'll let him up for all his stuff before the A.

Oh, I hope you decide "no deal". Tell him. Tell him you don't want him to "let you up" over the A. You want to talk to him about it. You want to own your choices and the consequences for those and you want to hear his pain and hurt.

He needs to hear yours too.

I know that the common feeling BS's experience is how much "fun" the WS had during the affair. Maybe for some that's true. Some affairs are born out of horrible coping skills and pain so deep moving through the day is hard.

I have a feeling yours was.

I can't think how I would even start a conversation about this

"Baby, I have some things I need to share with you"

I've been busily inventing plausible lies to tell him about why I'm so preoccupied, but so far haven't told him anything.

Tell him. Show him. Show him you. You're not a victim of a NPD mother. You're a survivor, damnit and you did that so well you raised your children to be well adjusted adults. BRAVO!!!

Don't ever give up on yourself. Thrive...It'll drive your mother nuts. Oh, and by the way, it's perfectly ok to go NC with family members, especially dangerous ones!!!!

PM me anytime. I'm in your corner.

Character flaws are not character disorders.

And just because your love (and anything else, in the world) might not have been enough for your mother doesn't mean there's anything wrong with your ability to love, or your love itself.

Stop pretending. What is it, exactly, that you have to lose? (that's not rhetorical or snotty--I mean, identify *precisely* what it is that you're scared of)

Also,

"Am I capable of being the kind of wife that my integrity requires that I be?"

Eh? As Dorothy would say, what fresh hell is this? What on earth kind of horrid picture are you using to flagellate yourself with and fall short of? (there, I'm hanging myself with dangling prepositions) Please, stop worrying about being a Kind Of Wife, and start being just a person. Being the Perfect <anything> is a form of self-abnegation and, as you know, that rarely ends well.

It's less hard to stop lying when you're not trying to control outcomes. Try that.

You know what you need to do to support your BH's recovery. Do you know how to support your own?

I have such an incredibly long history of lying when it is convenient born of an upbringing where lying was a prerequisite for living, and I'm just not sure I can change that. It is as ingrained in me as breathing.

Bullshit. People can do whatever they want to do. Change is hard. It just takes determination.

All I hear in this post is someone wanting to cop out on their behavior.

Even your post title "What If . . ." Sure, you have a character flaw. Every WS has one; that's why we all cheated.

It's simple: you can choose to do the hard work or not. It's up to your BH to decide if he wants to stick it out.

Sheesh. You entire post--to my ears--drips with a tone of "I don't want to do this." If that's how you really feel, then don't. Save everyone the headache and heartache. Pack it and move on.

I don't mean to sound harsh, just direct.

All I hear in this post is someone wanting to cop out on their behavior.

Really? I hear someone owning their behavior and asking some very hard questions based on a very big problem she has with her behavior/s.

Everything about this post is honest and not trying to look for excuses at all.

All of us WS should be asking, or have asked, these same questions in our own way.

1. Do I have a character flaw?

2. How have/are FOO issues affecting me? My spouse?

3. What is missing inside me?

4. Should I be married and can I give enough of myself to my marriage for my spouse?

Seems like a pretty good start to me.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 11:56 AM, September 6th (Monday)]

People can do whatever they want to do.

You are right, but there are plenty of people who didn't know that this applies to WHO they are and HOW they have lived their lives to date. Now that we are facing these questions post d-day, it is traumatic to realize that how you have lived your life, how you were encouraged to live your life based on your up-bringing, is such a lie and that you can go against that and learn to become yourself adn who you really want to be. Everything is thrown into question.

I too agree that it is an honest post of her inner turmoil. She is confident (has to be if she is a trial lawyer) and it sometimes can be misconstrued for arrogance.

That being said..change is hard. It is especially hard for someone who has had a behavior from childhood way into middle adulthood.

It is hard work and some people just may not want to.

She is also still a little foggy. No OM or OW would have any control over you if you were not.

if you find yourself wanted to google or look up your AP..the fog is still rolling.

Change is travelling into unknown territory and conquering it. It takes courage and will power. If you believe your BH is worth it , then it may be hard, but you will do it.

If you have a character flaw it can be corrected. The mere fact that you think you have one should be investigated, determined and dealt with.

Now I will see if you will comment on this post. I have noticed that when I post to your threads..you stop posting to them.

hopefulwife1985 ~

listen to FRM....he is incredibly wise....

There's no "if" about it.

You're human, you have a character flaw. Actually, many of them. Just like everyone other human in the world.

No matter how intense some of yours may be, they are fixable or they can be reined in to the point where they don't result in terrible negative impacts to yourself or others. If your IC isn't helping you to do that, get a new one.

Have you thought about a seperation?

You don't have to jump into a divorce...

How long has it been since you have lived on your own?

Maybe some time apart from your BS will help you to get some perspective. Maybe you will decide that you are happier on your own..maybe you will begin to appreciate your marriage more...

It couldn't hurt at this point... sounds like you are not very happy...

and most likely, your BS is feeling that too...

Lots of good input.

I'm not ignoring you. I'm thinking....

She is also still a little foggy. No OM or OW would have any control over you if you were not.

This is a good point and one I hadn't considered.

So when do you know you are out? I'm thinking when my mind doesn't wander to OM when I'm scared, upset, anxious or bored?

?????

My self imposed rule is that until I'm out of the fog, I don't get to decide anything bigger than what to have for dinner.

What is it, exactly, that you have to lose?

As Dorothy would say, what fresh hell is this? What on earth kind of horrid picture are you using to flagellate yourself with and fall short of?

Change is travelling into unknown territory and conquering it. It takes courage and will power.

The fresh hell of the horrid picture is what I have to lose and traveling to that territory is, I see now, both terrifying and ill advised.

So, change the picture. Abandon the perfection standard. Be myself.

Fears and horrors and easier said than done as you all know. First of all, who is she? I know some stuff about her. But a lot of her got smashed into tiny shards early on. Putting her back together is taking some work. And the voice that says "if he really knows you, he won't love you do just leave the shards alone" just will not shut up.

You entire post--to my ears--drips with a tone of "I don't want to do this."

That's close. But what I'm really saying is "I don't know if I want to do this, and if the answer to that is yes, I don't know if I'm capable."

I know the "excuse" of being brought up in an environment where lying is a pre-requisite to living is hard to swallow. If you haven't had a narcissistic mother, it's very difficult to explain. Here's the program with an NPD mom: Mom is dependent on the kids to meet her emotional needs. It should be the other way around. The kids aren't distinct people -- they are an extension of her. Boundaries? What are those? Mistakes and bad feelings don't make mom feel good about herself so the kid learns to lie and stuff it because she is six 6 and literally needs her mother so the kid can survive. Mom can't be the one who is screwed up because the kid has to have her to live, so the kid takes responsibility for the mom. The relationship has some aspects of the Stockholm syndrome. Keep Mother Happy At All Costs was the family mantra because you seriously, seriously did not want mother unhappy.

It all looks good on the surface, the perfect happy family, but of course it isn't. Because I couldn't reconcile the dissonance between what I was told and what I was experiencing I never learned to trust myself. But I did learn how to hide myself, and I did learn how to lie.

My FOO issues haven't sentenced me to a life of hiding and lying. But because those patterns are so deeply ingrained in me, it's tough to recognize them, and I can't break them if I don't recognize them. So BaxtersBFF is exactly right. The A brought these issues into sharp relief.

The question I'm asking myself is do I want to be married at all. FOO issues are critical to that answer. I've viewed my H as a roadblock to living the life I want to live, but I think I've been projecting my mother onto him.

I'm at a natural breaking point in life. Two of my three kids are gone and the youngest starts driving in January, we are selling the house which is suddenly way too big, I need to find a job but I refuse to practice law and I feel like that's all I am qualified to do, I'm basically in NC with my mother, I'm menopausal and grieving the loss of my fertility and youth, and I'm wondering what I want the last part of my life to look like.

So, 50, female, job being outsourced to colleges, unemployed with no marketable skills, riddled with self doubt & foggy. Not a pretty picture.

My goal is to be ready to have the conversation with my H by Thanksgiving. I know that sounds like a long time, but in truth we talked a lot about the A -- or a lot for us -- between all the various D days, and, because we have been together for so long there is a lot of non-verbal communication. Like last night, he said he'd noticed that I have been touching and hugging him more since we dropped our middle child off at college. He sees I'm not talking to friends that I know he finds threatening. And he's doing things differently too.

So when do you know you are out? I'm thinking when my mind doesn't wander to OM when I'm scared, upset, anxious or bored?

?????

Just as you can see your way clearly when you are out of a natural fog, you will see things just as clearly when you clear the fog of infidelity.

You see OM as an anchor or someone that can boost you up enough to overcome an adversity.

When in all actuality he is a participant in the destruction of your marriage. You don't even know if you want your marriage now.

Is that because you think you could survive knowing that you have more access to the OM?

Or are the issues really that bad that you cannot repair your marriage and you believe it has nothing to do with OM?

Remove OM from the picture and you can really determine if you want your marriage or not.

The true test of being out of the fog is when you become indifferent to the thought of OM. When thoughts of him are no more important to you than you seeing a telephone pole on the street.

In other words..he has no effect on your decisions.