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wincings_sparkle,

You have been so very open and honest in this post, I have a question that perhaps you can give some insight.

I am 5+ years from dday. I am long D from an unremorseful clueless WH. I have "moved on", at least as much as I ever will. And yet...I still wonder. And since you are being so open with what I know are conflicting emotions over difficult memories...I decide to ask...

I have seen many WS post about how they feel entitled during the A. And yet, the same WS often post that they feel that they did not deserve what they had (your 11:11 post eludes to this)

So it seems that many WS's have that conflicting set of personality traits where they feel "entitled" to do what feels "good" and yet they have such a low opinion of themselves that at the same time they deserve to be misused by the AP. Or that they do not deserve the love of BS and they life/family they have with the BS.

How can you feel both? Or does one (the entitlement) stem from the other (low self esteem)?

This is one aspect that I have never understood.

If this is a difficult topic then please do not feel obligated to reply. I do not want to set you back by having to rehash feelings or events that may trigger you or WAL.

W_S,

Point taken... there is NO good time for an A. The pregnancy is what made it worse for me.

Concerning Dreamboat's post... I have a side question on the "entitlement" issue.

You phrase it as though you were entitled to the A... that you deserved it.

I would posit that my WW felt that she was entitled to ME and OUR M. I had been there for her since she was 16 years old... she went right from her parent's house to mine at 22 years old. Her actions seemed to assume that no matter what she did I would always be there for her. Did you feel entitlement not just to have your A but also entitled to W_A_L and your life in general?

No hard questions here... It's okay, I don't mind. I'll try to answer. It still might not make sense.

Dream:

many WS post about how they feel entitled during the A. And yet, the same WS often post that they feel that they did not deserve what they had... ...How can you feel both? Or does one (the entitlement) stem from the other (low self esteem)?

**This is just me, I can't explain for other WSes.

Just some background: You know how people say that "they always affair down", in my case that was true. I've talked about low self-esteem in other posts.(Long and bleh.) I denied the low self-esteem. In my mind there was nothing wrong with me.

I learned that sex was (for me) an escape and a coping mechanism. It had no meaning outside of the "feel good/hide the hurt".(While it had meaning with my husband, sometimes I could do both... make love to my BH and escape at the same time.)

When I snapped, I didn't feel like I could keep anything good in my life safe. I thought "if I cared about it, I would lose it anyway" (grief, guilt and death issues that were never dealt with).

I don't know if I'm explaining this well or not.

I wanted to feel good, I wanted to forget pain, anger, fear. The OM didn't matter to me, he was a means to an end. If I lost the OM, it wouldn't hurt. (My husband was a 9.5 and the OM was a 0.5 on a scale of 1-10.)

This is where you say, "That makes no sense. You were afraid that you were going to lose your family and then did something that could cause you to lose your family!!??!!"

I know.

If I distanced myself from my family, pushed them away, it wouldn't hurt as badly to lose them. So, I got to punish myself for all my perceived faults (self-esteem issues), escape into a pleasure/pain coping mechanism (misused by the AP), create the distance between myself and what mattered to me (to protect myself from the pain of anticipated (false) loss, and justify my actions (entitlement) by saying I deserved to feel better, to be "happy".

It is convoluted, circular, self-destructive behavior. I couldn't see what I was doing at the time. I couldn't explain any of this during the A or immediately after the A. It wasn't easy to dig into all those issues or feelings and connect all of the pieces. (Sometimes, even now 4 years past D-Day, I will make a connection during a discussion that I haven't made yet. It's maddening.)

Alex:

Point taken... there is NO good time for an A. The pregnancy is what made it worse for me.

I was trying to express to you that there are events that make the A "worse" for most BSes. Yours is a pregnancy and a whopping big LIE about your child. Someone elses may be their children being left alone while the WS goes off to their AP. Comparing pain is all relative. Pain is pain. No one can rate your pain except you.

Everyone keeps telling you that your WW's behavior is off the charts even for a wayward. I don't necessarily think that's true. Most Waywards are off the charts, the crazy thinking goes deep. Waywards lie to themselves, to their BS, to their family... Sometimes the lies to ourselves go so deep that we believe that we are telling the truth. (Some part of us knows that we aren't but we gag that part, tie it up and lock it in a closet.)

Did you feel entitlement not just to have your A but also entitled to W_A_L and your life in general?

No, I don't think so. I didn't think that I deserved him and my family. So, no, I wasn't entitled to Wal and my life in general.

I didn't ever want to leave him. I didn't want to lose him. I loved him then in the way I knew how to love: a very childish way.

As I said above, I didn't think of our relationship as solid, it felt like it could disappear in a blink. Self fulfilling prophecy. If I think it will, if I do this it will, and *poof* its over and I can be a victim of life. That is right up there on my insane o'meter.

If I didn't answer your questions or just brought up more questions, feel free to ask.

Thanks wincings

Wincings:

With all due respect, adultery, even without protection, and even involving someone's best friend, while wretched and horrible, is still not quite in the "same league" as getting pregnant by an OM, continuing to have sex with OM and BS during a pregnancy, and then passing off the child as that of one's husband for two years.

Infidelity can eventually be overcome, and a marriage can even potentially get better, when a FWS has the insight that you do now, Wincings.

And if you're saying that you believe that you could easily have done what Alexa's wife did, I wonder how many WS's could honestly say the same.

In short, I believe that even in the mind of most WS's, ther are just some things that are beyond the pale.

And I don't sense much sadness at all in WAL's posts of the last several months, at least, and maybe longer. And that is probably because he has a wife who not only "gets it" but has the raw material inside of her that allowed her to "get it."

Screwing a BS's best friend is truly awful, but it still doesn't involve a child or deception about parenthood. That is a level of deceit and betrayal that goes to the very guts of the most nightmarish kind of fears imaginable.

Wincings, you are a perfect example of why reconciliation is sometimes the best and wisest choice, and your posts have demonstrated humility, real compassion, wisdom and understanding. I find it hard to believe that much of that was not always in you, even when you were at your worst and most deluded. That is why I made that suggestion about you to WAL.

If you're right, that Alexa's wife's behavior is not, in fact, in a different league, then I stand corrected, I guess. But I'm still not sure you or most WS's could have done that.

If it is really, truly possible for Alexa's wife to get anywhere close to where you are now, after what she has put her husband through, then I'll have seen it all. Seriously. They have way, way, way more to overcome than you and your husband did.

WS thank you for your honesty, did you ever think you would hear those words again? Since I have no access to the wayward side I am unable to read your story, thank you for sharing it with me. Are you bipolar? My story is identical to alexa071, the difference is her affair was just over two years and I raised my son for just over 1 year until I discovered her betrayal. Unlike alexa071 I couldn't stay with her, OM all that crap. My ex never confessed one thing, never said sorry so I said goodbye. She could never make me feel safe again. She became my stalker for a few years, I couldn't take her back and to this day my address is unpublished. I still hate her, not because she rode some guy a few hundred times, a threesome with two other women, but because she gave my only son to another man. I found out from friends that she did it intentionally as I think alexa's wife did. That is the one thing that truly troubles me about alexa's wayward wife, she never did the minimum required of a wife, to guarantee him that his child is his when they were actively trying to have a baby. That is why I think she didn't care who's child she had, she turned alexa into the OM. Sorry, I still have anger after 5 years. I am glad the two of you are making it.

w-s thank you for honestly sharing your story. (I also think it cute you both wrote at 11:11 ).

If we are comparing who's story is worse, there really is no worse. Infidelity and the stuff that comes with it is earth shattering. Im not only in a relationship where infidelity reings (I believe its still going on, but imo theyve taken it underground), but Im mentally, emotionally abused. Ive gone through stuff I have yet to share here. Im not saying mine is worse than others, because its not. Ive read stories that have almost killed my heart from the pain Ive felt for people.

Alex, what your wife has done is not unique. It has been done in the past and will be done in the future. Nor is it the worst. I can think of two stories Ive read in a 30 day span that I think is amongst the worst Ive ever heard in my whole life. The pain those women endure. I haven't read your post in over a week or so, so Im not sure where you're at with your decision (and it is YOUR decision), but I want to state, Im one who is hoping for a happily ever after; that your wife will do a 180 and fix her life.

BTW...I feel 1000% if I stay with h, there will be at least one OC in our lives. He knows nothing of condoms (he does, but they don't exist for him).

FLAMING & ATTACKING: Please refrain from attacking another member, publicly or by using the SI.com Private Message feature. Do not bait or call out others. This includes members and non-members.

aliveagain,it is completely inappropriate for you to be discussing another member on a thread she isn't even participating on. Review the guideline and refrain from giving your perception of her behaivor unless she starts a thread and asks for your opinion.

FatherFirst:

I love "With all due respect."

It always makes me tense up and pay attention.

First, Thank you for your kindness. I didn't know the raw material was there. I didn't know all the crap that was in my head either. Sometimes, humility is just truth.

if you're saying that you believe that you could easily have done what Alexa's wife did, I wonder how many WS's could honestly say the same.

Gah, I would love to say that I don't believe that I could have under any circumstance. The problem with that is... I didn't believe that I would have an affair and here I am.

Could I have with blatant intent, no. Could I have been that mentally ill/delusional... yep.

I've seen stranger in the psych ward. (As a nurse, not a patient. )

The human mind is incredibly flexible. Capable of great strength, amazing creativity and it is also very fragile. For me, I have to believe in the ability to change. (Wal and I argue about whether or not all people have the ability to change. That is a philosophical discussion for another day. )

there are just some things that are beyond the pale.

Then there is something that is beyond even that... Fictitious Joe's wife could have had an affair with his brother and passed off his nephew as his child...

They have way, way, way more to overcome than you and your husband did.

I'm not going to argue "who's is bigger". It's not a pissing contest. KWIM?

Alex: I'm sorry that I keep talking about you like your not around. (Swear to heaven, I hope that the "Fictitious Joe" line wasn't offensive.) How's it going in your world?

aliveagain:

did you ever think you would hear those words again?

Not in this context, no.

Just curious: If you can't see the Wayward forum, can you not read Wayward profiles either?

Are you bipolar?

Yes, I am.

Sorry, I still have anger after 5 years.

There is no need to apologize. I'm sorry that your xWW hurt you so terribly. Intentionally inflicted harm is so very painful.

sullymeishadomi: The 11:11 thing was funny.

metamorphisis:

Hi. I know that the flag wasn't for me. I just wanted to say that this t/j is kinda all over the place. If I broke the rules posting it, I'm sorry.

[This message edited by wincings_sparkle at 10:13 PM, September 8th (Wednesday)]

No worries W_S... you aren't offending me at ALL. As a matter of fact it is enjoyable to read other people's insight into my situation without having to always be engaged. It is so personal for me that it is sometimes hard to see reality clearly.

Also, I get a lot from hearing this stuff from a WS. I just cannot put myself into that frame of mind and thus have no ability to understand. Hearing it from someone who has been there and understands how and why they got there is very helpful.

ETA: In answer to your question my world is very much the same. I try to tell myself every day that this is not something that will be solved overnight. Patience is something I'm praying for right now. And wisdom... wisdom to know when I have been patient long enough and it is time to make a decision.

[This message edited by alexa071 at 4:09 AM, September 9th (Thursday)]