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Well, I've kept something from him. Something big, for weeks.

He looked, and he found something. A cigarette and lighter (this morning), and smoke on my breath (last week). He's hurt, stunned, and doesn't even know where to start dealing with this.

In itself, it may not seem like a big deal. It was a cigarette. So I sneaked a smoke, so what, right? But here's so much more to it than that.

Basically, I put cigarettes above him. Not just myself, but cigarettes, too. I remember actually having this thought a few times, yet I still did it. My smoking has been a metaphor for my affair - and I still did it. I had ample opportunity to tell him. And I still didn't.

I suck, I know that. It stinks that apparently I'm not willing or able to do something difficult without external pressure. I think we were on the right track. I still think I was on the right track, but there are obviously some big weak spots in my new 'growth'. I'll schedule an appointment with my counsellor again, but for now, For this day, I don't know. I want to help my husband heal, I want to help him identify the hurt and make it better. I want to heal me, I was doing well and now we're so utterly stuck. He doesn't know what to feel, I don't know what to do.

Does anyone here have any suggestions as to how we can overcome this? What parameters can my husband use for 'practical trust'? Used to be 'looking and not finding', used to be my 'mental markers' and new found courage. That's out the window.

Please help.

~L.

What was the thought process behind deciding to smoke? Why didn't you tell you wanted to do it before you did it?

Good questions, I haven't considered those yet.

The first cigarette after quitting last year (Feb. 2009) was last June, after a work event. It was the old and false association of cigarettes and alcohol with 'fun', and 'feel good'. ND was not there, but I told him afterwards an we hardly blinked. I never paid it enough attention, after.

So, the next cigarette was easier. And it wasn't the 'fun' association that time, but the 'stress reduction' - which is just about as false, by the way. There may also an affair association, since the stressor was an e-mail from the other man that bothered me.

Again, at some point I wanted to smoke then and there, and I did. But this time I did not tell ND. I was scared that I wouldn't be able to assure him that nothing else happened, NC-wise (like breaking No Smoking wasn't bad enough).

And then I dropped the whole thing and kept smoking since I didn't have the nerve to tell, and didn't tell because i had smoked so much. Which turns out to be circular reasoning. And all-or-nothing-thinking. Not good.

I'm not sure this was all I thought. I'll probably remember more over the next few hours and days.

Thanks, icbtih8.

~L.

BS here - also ex smoker. Stopped after 18 years and haven't had one in 27 now. One thing I was taught at Smokestoppers was that I'd built years of habits around my smoking and that 2, 5 and even 10 years after I quit, I could run into a situation I used to smoke in and the craving or habit would kick right in. Had to practice all the tricks they taught me when that happened. They were right. It doesn't happen anymore, but it did for many years.

Nicotine is an addiction and I think people need help to quit. That being said it's also a hard thing to hide --- it stinks! There is no way you can't get caught especially living with someone who doesn't smoke.

Maybe you need to get some help to quit and talk with your H about the physical and psychological addiction.

Quitting smoking is the hardest thing I ever did and one I am most proud of.

Good luck.

I was scared that I wouldn't be able to assure him that nothing else happened, NC-wise

why would this thought be there?

did you break nc? or did you want to break nc?

Hi Alex, and thanks for your reminder. Smoking is an addiction, I know. My husband knows it, too - he quit almost three years ago and hasn't lapsed since. But he understands the addiction.

The other part of the problem is my secretiveness. I thought it was part of a form of perfectionism (which is part of a fear of abandonment) that I had left behind me in the past year. Obviously, either that assessment was incorrect or I haven't removed as far from it as I thought I had. I'm second guessing myself right now, and second guessing my husband. It feels like a black hole, and I know I can't hang around in this feeling. Yet I can't seem to make up my mind. Chicken? Or careful?

Last year, I actually used the No Smoking as a check on my openness. Can't do that now.

What I'm looking for is another way to check my openness. Obviously, none of us can rely on me on this one. So, it has to be a tool that's in itself independent of both trust and openness, but one that indicates a lack of sneaking.

And I'm not quite ready to see that such a tool may not exist.

~L.

ETA: Forgot to mention: 'my' therapist has moved. Trying to decide if I'll find another one or 'go the distance'.

[This message edited by leftoolate at 7:58 AM, September 8th (Wednesday)]

LTL - I have left this thread alone because I don't understand smoking, but just want to offer support and strength for moving forward.

I was scared that I wouldn't be able to assure him that nothing else happened, NC-wise

why would this thought be there?

did you break nc? or did you want to break nc?

You're right, iwam, that's not very clearly put. No contact, but I did have a rough week or so a couple of weeks ago. The affair partner sent me an e-mail, which wasn't a big problem in itself, but a few weeks later I found myself wanting to contact him. Not for any particular reason (even when I tried to envision a meeting, I didn't get past "Um..."), but the notion came up repeatedly. I told my husband about it and the idea faded within two weeks.

However, that would have been a good opportunity to tell my husband that I had smoked again, and I didn't take it.

Somehow, just after the final d-day and perhaps a bit before, my smoking got tangled up with my affair. The affair guy is a former coworker, who smokes. Before he and I had an affair, we used to take smoking breaks, together with another coworker. I used my smoking time as an escape from my life, even at home - stepping out for a bit. I craved cigarettes when I quit, just like I kept wanting to look in on the affair partner. I promised my husband I would let him know if I screwed up, both with smoking and with NoContact.

They have been linked in my recovery and even in our healing together. Now that I failed on one point (smoking), I wanted to 'establish' that I had not failed in the other (contact). I found no way to prove a negative, and then I just stuffed it and didn't tell him anything. So, that's the roundabout way of saying that no, I didn't break NC, but I'm still on bad behaviour. My husband has let the connection go, but I'm not convinced that I'd be open about contact if I wasn't about smoking.

You see, ultimately, this isn't about smoking. It's about keeping secrets, which I should not be doing.

So, US, thanks for your support - since right now it's looking like I haven't been moving forward all that much.

I thought I had dealt with most of my fears around disclosure, what with not even dying when my husband knew the extent of the affair and all.

Well, this is what I came up with so far.

1. The issues I identified as the driving problems were not actually the driving problems. I need to look frther and/or deeper.

2. Or the issues identified were the driving problems, but I didn't handle them correctly or thoroughly. I need other tools, either better or different.

3. ...

That's it. Not much, but I'm trying to think outside my own mind on both thes points. That does not come easily. I'm cutting myself some slack on the time frame, since I did make enough changes inside myself to trust that I will not keep secrets for now. Obviously, I can't trust myself to have handled this once and for all. I can keep my guard on red alert for a few months, but I need to make provisions for the future in the mean time.

Does this make sense?

~L.

Edited to remove the word 'so'. Twice.

[This message edited by leftoolate at 9:40 AM, September 9th (Thursday)]

You see, ultimately, this isn't about smoking. It's about keeping secrets, which I should not be doing.

This, I get.

What I do (which is probably a bad thing, but I gotta do what I gotta do) is I tell my best friend first. (That's the bad part - yeah, I know my husband should come first, blah blah blah...) Once I've told someone (who I know will not yell at me or kill me), then I can tell my H much easier. He knows I do this (he also knows that my best friend will yell me into submission), so it works for me and us.

I usually tell H by saying something like... "sorry, but I have to say something bad and it'll mess up our date night tonight, but I'll tell it now and get it out of the way" and it actually never messes up date night.

ETA: Thought about this more... I actually get it if I frame it as an SA thing. My H wants me to tell him when I feel the compulsions, which I imagine are like the desire to smoke... I can't do it. I just can't. It is basically admitting that I am a failure of a human being and I'm not there yet; I can't admit to being a failure.

So, ignore what I wrote earlier. I have no useful advice!

[This message edited by UnexpectedSong at 3:39 PM, September 9th (Thursday)]

o.k. so if i got it straight, xom did try to contact you and you told your husband...and you also told him that you were considering contacting him...you say the idea faded in 2 weeks...did your husband know of the 2 weeks it took to fade...

i get the impression that you are afraid of looking weak to him, to tell him you failed at something he deemed necessary and important....

your linking smoking to your a though i really dont get, i am an ex-smoker, i smoked for close to 20 years....and while many events transpired in those years, my smoking is automatically linked to all of them just because i smoked through all of them....for me smoking became the one thing that helped me feel a sense of peace.....in times of strife, smoking was magnified, and it helped me cope with whatever....

i quit the day i found out i was pregnant, and stayed quit...there is not a day that goes by that i do not miss it, and there is not a day that goes by that i am not happy that i quit...and everytime i smell it now i am nauseated...yay, kind of helps the quitting stay....especially since d-day....

anyways...i get the feeling like you are conjuring up memories where they need not be...didn't you smoke before you got involved with this xom....i get that taking breaks gave you more opportunity...but that is really unrelated to the smoking...people take breaks for lots of shit....your excuse to see him was having a cig

i do agree that the big thing is that you kept another secret...i also don't think you nailed your reason for keeping it a secret...

so why did you smoke????what feelings were you having that you lit up...perhaps that might be the key....and that is why you didn't tell because of why you lit up in the first place...

anyways...i get the feeling like you are conjuring up memories where they need not be...

Very accurate. My reasoning is that quitting the affair and quitting smoking are connected in time, and that the association was branded into me by the powerful emotions after d-day. I absolutely agree that the one has nothing substantial to do with the other. I need to let that go. BTW, the affair, including the affair-emotions, didn't start until after the guy was no longer at my job. I still take breaks with my smoking coworker, I just don't smoke. It allows me to retain the function (short mental r&r), but with a different behaviour (just chatting, instead of smoking). My husband knows about this, of course.

As to why I smoked... Well, the first one was stupid enough (alcohol and the false associations of smoking with fun), but I did tell my husband about that one even though I didn't want to tell him. The wrong choice is not in that event.

The second one is the problematic one: where I smoked on the false association of stress relief. I was still a bit on edge from the affair guy's e-mail and when some other stressors came up at work, I went ahead and threw my personal standard out the window. And you're right - I did not want ND to know that. I don't mind him knowing that I was temporarily stupid, but I hate to let him see real weakness.

I hope this is not too cryptic: I know , intellectually, that true strength is not in never faltering. I know that true strength is in getting up when I falter. It's about acceptance rather than denial.

I can't admit to being a failure.

Well, I can't admit to being a failure either. Moreover, I can't admit to you being a failure, US. But perhaps we can admit to failing. To do that, I need to make the rest of my mind understand what my intellect already knows: no one action defines a person.

Are these things fit for affirmations or something like that? Asking and telling myself things out loud, perhaps even using a mirror? This is a serious question - it feels so foreign to me that I don't even know how and where to start.

Thanks for all your help, all of you. It's absolutely invaluable to me.

~L.

This post has been buzzing around in my head since yesterday. I'll say right off I am a smoker and a BW. I gotta quit and I KNOW I gotta quit. Haven't been able to get there yet. My FWH also smokes and wants to quit. So my thoughts around the subject are confusing, even to me. Maybe even a bit foggy?

H and I both quit when I got pregnant with my oldest and didn't smoke for 5 years,until OW entered the picture (she was also a smoker). So I also have A triggers associated with smoking. I blame OW for the fact that I started again. If H didn't start again I wouldn't have, and he wouldn't have if I OW wasn't around. (See, I think that's probably the foggy part.)

I get angry with myself because I haven't quit yet. Sometimes I think "H 'quit' OW and that was an addiction, why can't I get passed my addiction"? H is also a recovering alcoholic and addict. I feel like a hypocrit for insisting he give up his addictions but I haven't let go of mine.

I read about what you did - smoking a butt - and I think "big deal, it isn't as bad as an A". But I think that might just be the addict in me talking. I really don't know. Funny thing is that it doesn't make me angry that H can't quit. My smoking bothers me, but his doesn't. I look at all the other addictions he gave up and think "well, maybe trying to quit this too is just too much to expect".

I agree, it is the secrecy and the lies about smoking that are the problem here for your H. Is it possible that dealing with everything else, the A recovery, quitting smoking right now is too much for you? You gotta quit the lying about it for sure, but maybe your H would be willing to give you a reprieve on quitting? Do you think your H would be open to it if you said "I am working really hard on improving ME and I think that's where all my focus needs to be, how about if I quit in XXX months?"

OK - I admit I am a fellow addict here, so that might be crap advice, so maybe you should take it with a grain of salt? I don't know.

I can tell you both of my parents have been "quitting" for a couple of years now. He smokes, she smokes - but they don't admit it to each other. They will both say to me, while lighting up - "don't tell your father/mother". And I have told them it is a horrible way to live and not good for their M. Not the smoking itself but the secrets.

As for an "accountabilty check". Have you tried "Is there anything I feel guilty about?".

-

I did not want ND to know that. I don't mind him knowing that I was temporarily stupid, but I hate to let him see real weakness.

what is the fear here?

and then ask yourself why?...and ask it at least several times to each reply...

Well, I can't admit to being a failure either

i think you might be hung up on some of the semantics...instead of phrasing that YOU are a failure....which by the way is not conducive to healing or owning your shit...it only serves the purpose of you sinking lower into the self dug hole....

try instead to say i made poor choices, and my choices do not define me unless i choose not to change them...

so the next question would then be do you want to be defined as someone who keeps secrets...making yourself a liar...or do you want to choose to tell your worst and trust in your husband...

if you really want trust you must first learn to trust him...and that means he knows it all....trust is a 2 way street especially after the betrayal....

Hi all,

Just checking in and letting you know that I'm here and reading. It's just late here, and my response would not be coherent.

Keep 'em coming, I'll be back tomorrow.

Thank you ever so much.

~L.

Smoking lead to the death of my wife.

I get angry with myself because I haven't quit yet. Sometimes I think "H 'quit' OW and that was an addiction, why can't I get passed my addiction"?

Same here, except that I compare my smoking to my own affair. Yet, we both know that we have it in us to quit smoking, don't we? Heck, you didn't light up for five years! Obviously, some of the underlying views and cognitions haven't left with the last cough, but still, we are capable of quitting. That gives me both hope and perspective.

Is it possible that dealing with everything else, the A recovery, quitting smoking right now is too much for you? (snip) "how about if I quit in XXX months?

Yeah, well, I was able to quit smoking while I coped (sort of) with my husband's grief and pain, my own horror, and most of the housework, among the usual business of life, kids and everything. I can't use this, it feels false to me. Smoking doesn't make life less difficult, but more so.

Have you tried "Is there anything I feel guilty about?".

Yep. First: the smoking, second: the secret. The order could be significant. It seems like in my own mind, smoking (specifically failing to quit) is worse than keeping a secret. And to get right along with iwam...

what is the fear here?

and

try instead to say i made poor choices, and my choices do not define me unless i choose not to change them...

I'm afraid he can't live with someone who keeps failing, failing him. I've failed so often in all of my life, I'm scared no one can love me if they found that out. I want to be loved. If nobody'd love me, I'd shrivel up and die and be of no use any which way. I feel that to be loved, I need to do good things. I stand by that actually. But it seems like I believe that the stupid, bad, hurtful choices that I make must negate the smart, good, kind choices that I make.

try instead to say i made poor choices, and my choices do not define me unless i choose not to change them...

Hm. I need to think that over. It's not quite the same distinction as action/person, but the difference is too subtle for me to put into words yet. Very helpful. I love semantics, btw, but some things are simply lost in translation (as an aside: in my language, 'trust' and 'confidence' are still one word).

so the next question would then be do you want to be defined as someone who keeps secrets...making yourself a liar...or do you want to choose to tell your worst and trust in your husband...

I do not understand why I can't seem to do that. I love this man. I want to be someone that he can live with - if at all possible. I was completely free of secrets for a year and more, and I loved it. Yes, the year mostly sucked, because of all the hurt I caused, but that part was so awesome!

Okay, summing up for now.

- I'm capable of not smoking for at least a year and a half. So start by doing that.

- Acknowledged faults are easier to live with than hidden faults.

- Failing does not negate virtue. It stands next to it, apart from it.

- ND is a great man, not just a pretty package. He is fully capable of choosing the essentials of his own life and deserves to do so with the best information available to him.

- If nothing else, I'll always have me. That's not too shabby.

That's it for now. Thank you all so much. I'll respond to the PM in private. I'm aware that smoking can kill. That makes this a particularly bad secret to harbour.

Have a good night!

~L.

I'm afraid he can't live with someone who keeps failing, failing him. I've failed so often in all of my life,

are you really failing him, or

I'm scared no one can love me

and

I'd shrivel up and die and be of no use any which way. I feel that to be loved, I need to do good things.

it is scary when you stand before someone with all your faults there for them to see, wondering if they will still love you....wondering if they will now reject you....

the need to please to make sure you are loved...doesn't work...the child who spills the milk is still loved...maybe not liked at the moment of the spillage but always loved...

we are humans, which means we are not perfect, we make mistakes....some mistakes are monumental others are trivial....some mistakes we make may be monumental to someone else while trivial to you and vice versa...

the point is a simple one, we all fail at shit, its part of life...its what you do with this failure or mistake that matters...

there isn't a soul on this site that couldnt tell you that....what you do when you do wrong...do you fix it or do you make it worse....

and i have learned that all secrets have a way of coming out, whether it be in 5 min or 50 years...we will all have to atone for our "sins" so to speak...and the person we have to atone to is "ouselves".....we need to be able to live with all that we do and have done...some do this very well and yet others dig themselves deeper into darkness....

just a little side note btw...does he really love you if he only loves you when you do good, if that were true your marriage would be over by now...does he really love you, the real you or the facade you choose to show him...

we all want to be loved...and to be loved completely for all of who you are is the most fulfilling love one can have...so why are you denying this to both of you...

you have the power and the control of you...you choose who you want to be for you....

- I'm capable of not smoking for at least a year and a half. So start by doing that.

Sometimes setting goals for yourself that far out is just setting you up for failure. When my H first quit drinking, he would get depressed that it was for the rest of his life. Sometimes it was hard for him to deal with not drinking "today". Sometimes you have to start small.

You are definately capable of not smoking/lieing/hiding/maintaining NC WHATEVER for the next hour. Sometimes it takes baby steps, but we'll get there.

Sometimes it takes baby steps, but we'll get there.

Yes, I'm a big baby stepper. I don't mean to set myself the year and a half as a goal, I mean to use it as a direction, of sorts. I mean to not smoke lots and lots of cigarettes. Every time I don't give in to a craving is a victory - and I can do anything for fifteen minutes .

And iwam - I know what you mean, I do.

its what you do with this failure or mistake that matters... do you fix it or do you make it worse....we need to be able to live with all that we do and have done...

I have seen and felt this thousands of times. Most areas of my life and person show awareness that I am, whole and real, as I am. So, really, what's the next baby step here? I honestly have no idea what to do, where to go and how to get there. Did you make that journey consciously? Can you describe what you did to wholly acknowledge yourself? I need some pointers, otherwise I'll keep going in circles. They're okay, but I get dizzy, you know?

so why are you denying this to both of you...

Apparently I'm not willing to take that gamble. This is a deduction, not something that rings true for me. But it seems an inevitable conclusion. How depressing.

~L.

i wish i could give you the secret to living honestly...i would have to go back to my teen years because that was the last time i had to live with many secrets...i could not tell my mom all the things i did...as i got older i outgrew it, i learned that keeping all the secrets was living with a constant fear...and i decided that i didn't want to live with that fear....i loved being open...still do...sometimes i am too open with my life...with my friends i keep all their confidences...because those are not my secrets to tell...and some of them are really whoppers...i do not support all of their decisions and they know it, but i still support them as the friend who will catch them when they fall...

there is a difference in supporting a decision and a person....sometimes people get mixed up between them....

look at this point you know the risk you run when you choose the behavior...no one can make you do right, only you control you....and if you don't decide in your heart and head you will not succeed....the decision is and always was yours....

you do not lose control by living in honesty, that happens when you live in fear....you have the power and the control....time and time again you let fear dictate to you how to live....meanwhile...is it working for you??????

are you happy????

when you were living openly, how did it feel?????

no one has the magic potion, you do...

no one has the magic anything...but you do...

i am sorry i cannot give you those magic words and suggestions, i wish i could...you need to come up with it on your own...i wonder though how much will you lose before you learn how to live with your own truth....

they say that we need to hit rock bottom before we learn the really big lessons...i don't believe that though..i think we have the power to learn at any point in time, the desire needs just to be there...and then the decision would need to be made and a personal contract made with yourself on what to do....and then stick to it...no matter what you fear stick to it....

lots of people live in fear, and its a terrible way to live....there is no happiness in fear...

i wish you well leftoolate and i truly hope you find your answers on your journey the answers that will help you get where you want to go...

[This message edited by iwantamiracle at 10:52 AM, September 12th (Sunday)]