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I'm a bit shocked by the responses. I appreciate the concern, but BH really isn't a monster. He feels too deeply sometimes and the anger or sadness drives him to do things that he can see in hindsight as unhealthy. The thing with messing with other women, slapping me ocassionally last year, being insensitive to my feelings, these are all things that he admitts to be wrong and he promised to stop. The slapping was very rare and since he promised to stop, it hasn't happend at all. He is able to see his bad behaviors and willing to change them. I need to set some boundaries and keep to them in our relationship to make it a more healthy one.

Listening, these are good rules. NC is established on both sides with all OP as agreed. IC no. I've asked BH a few times, but he's been to counseling in the past and didn't get good results so isn't willing to go now, but I can keep trying to persuade him at appropriate times. Boundaries, yes, this is absolutely necessary and violation on either side should result in disolving our M. I am not living with no back bone for one more day. I've got to take care of myself and DD, and being overly passive in this relationship had done nothing but damage. I'm learning to stand up for myself in our relationship, and much of it I owe to you all for the support and honest advice.

BH doesn't believe in checking up on me, so there's no key logger or any other monitoring device. I gave him all my online passwords and he deleted them right away because he said he doesn't want to be petty. He wants to just trust me. I'm working on being worthy of that trust by being a honest person myself.

Be assured that BH is not a violent person, and I and DD are perfectly safe, but I do need to set boundaries in our M for both of our sake. Thanks for all your support. I'll keep checking in.

I'll keep checking in.

Please do.

I thought it was a "natural" BS question because I saw a thread on JFO or General about the double standard for BS and WS and many BS seem to agree that it's infuriating for a WS to say that it's unforgivable for the BS to have RA. But it seems not all BS agree with that view.

BA, operative word would be unforgivable. as in if we BS had an A (whether an RA, or because there was a slippery slope we couldn't help but fall into, etc), that it would be hypocritical for the WS to *not* want to try to forgive when they are demanding the same forgiveness. the post was not about "an eye for an eye" and stating how we BS (in general) think an RA is justifiable. it wasn't a post complaining that the WS "doesn't let us cheat". it was about some WS demand forgiveness but are completely unwilling to do the same.

this is not what is happening with you and your H. he is way beyond the normal BS spectrum of behaving, as in he has fallen off the charts.

let me ask you one question and forgive me if you've already stated this before:

Where is your daughter in all of this? Is she physically present to witness the abuse and "recovery"? This dysfunction is not healthy for her to see. Even if it doesn't happen all the time, this dysfunction is not healthy for her to witness.

[This message edited by icbtih8 at 12:40 PM, September 29th (Wednesday)]

I'm a bit shocked by the responses.

Why are you shocked? It's the same thing we've been posting several threads ago. How did you hope we would react?

icbtih, agreed on the post. That's the sense I got from the thread. Yes, from what I've read BH's actions are a bit far out. It made me angry and sad, and I tried my own rug sweeping because I can understand the impulse but it didn't work. I'm glad I spoke up.

DD heard a few ugly names in the early aftermath of Dday, and a few arguments in front of her, but we've tried our best to spare her of anymore ugly exchanges. We both agree as parents we need to present a happy unified front to DD, and we abide by that.

The slapping was very rare and since he promised to stop, it hasn't happend at all.

Now I understand I thought he was slapping you more often.

I am sorry but I understand where you are coming from I on my own have a long story with abusive relationships, not this last one but a previous one, and I am sorry but I will not sugar coat this for you, you are trying to justify him and all his actions because deep down you know this is not right but you don't want to admit it, BTDT many times.

I think your situation is way past the capacity for all of us here to help you, see here we try to help all BS and WS trying to move on from a very difficult and painful situation, thtas why we have gebtle 2x4 and not so gebtle ones and a lots of TLC for everybody because we need that to move on but you, you need to look at yourself in the mirror and tell to yourself what you are typing here I bet you you can't do that, because you know is not true.

He feels too deeply sometimes and the anger or sadness drives him to do things that he can see in hindsight as unhealthy.

That is what every abuser says, they know is wrong but they cannot control themselves...if we could all use that excuse there would probably be not too many WS here because they would be dead or in IC in the hospital.

I'm working on being worthy of that trust by being a honest person myself.

What is he working on??

I am sorry burnt but I will let my fellow SIers to be nice to you and tell you what you want to hear...I believe you need to start IC for you so YOU can change because he will not change a bit, and I am really worried about your DD, she cannot make her own decisions and this is going to affect her whole life.

I'm glad I spoke up.

I wish with all my heart that you will LISTEN too.

Peace to you.

I agree with above.

This sounds terribly abusive and toxic.

I think that you all should separate and seek individual counseling in a big way.

After all, there is a child involved here.

Sorry to be so blunt..but this sounds like a very toxic situation.

burntashes:

I'm supporting you 100%. You can see that from my previous posts.

Now, I just want you to read through this post and let me know what you think.

If you get through this and you think what I said is wrong, all I ask is that you take the time to tell me why. OK? I just want to make sure we understand each other.

----------------

I've experienced similar problems before, so I get it. I believe you when you say your husband is a good person. I want you to help him get that back as an everyday thing in his life.

The problem is that he's too used to the mistakes he's been making to just stop them. Just like someone who is addicted to drugs... it's the same kind of problem in the brain. His pain is too big to control himself all of the time. What just happened is like what happens when a drug addict is forced to go sober and see what they've done. They always understand that what they've done is wrong, but they end up doing it again almost every time. So, they might avoid it for a few days, or even a few weeks, but soon enough, the temptation comes back and they are using again. They are once again doing things that they could not imagine doing while they were sober. That's the problem with your husband. That's why everyone is so worried.

It seems like nearly everyone here disagrees that he's a good man. They believe that you have just convinced yourself that it's OK. They are worried for your safety, mostly, and it's only because they've seen this kind of situation get worse in their own lives. I can understand where they're coming from. Stories about husbands killing their wives are very scary, so they're just trying to look out for you.

I'm not asking you to agree with them at all... I just want you think about it in a different way:

Imagine the drug addict again. Most people wouldn't say someone is a bad person just because they use drugs. They might be a super nice person when they're sober. But when they are using, they sometimes do things like steal money from their friends, or even harm people to get money (like a mugging). Does that make them a bad person? I don't think so... not at all. They just need help.

This is what is wrong with your husband. He is just a good guy who has had something in his brain get messed up, and now he needs help. It certainly isn't good that you made it worse by cheating on him, but it's a good thing that you're being so remorseful and apologetic

So, here's how I look at your situation: your husband is like a drug addict who has been getting support from you for a while. When you gave your ultimatum, you forced him to get sober for a second and actually think about how his drug use was affecting you. Of course he said he'd come back... he loves you and hates what he did!

Unfortunately, just realizing it one time isn't enough to make sure he's better. To help him heal, you're going to have to keep taking his drugs away. Unfortunately, your situation is EVEN MORE complicated than drug use because he can abuse you and himself in so many different ways... some big, some small... plus he doesn't have to go find them and buy them. He can spit out words so easily. That makes it even harder to help him recover.

Clearly he's nice enough and smart enough to realize that what he has done is wrong, but that's only the beginning. That's not enough to get someone to stop using drugs, and it's not enough to get your husband to stop his abusive behaviors and damaging thoughts.

Imagine how much harder it is for someone to stop using drugs if they always have them lying around. I'd say it's damn near impossible.

Therein lies the problem in your situation. In order to make things better, you have to "pick up" all of those things that your husband has been relying on and force him to live the sober life. That's the only way he can get over it.

Sticking to your boundaries is essential, and I'm so glad that you're thinking that! It's going to take a lot of work to establish them and keep them, especially when things get harder. You have support here to help you!

With your current situation, I think there's at least one big thing you need to do right now, so here's the bottom line:

He HAS to get IC or else he's not going to get better. Whenever the next stress comes along he's very vulnerable to slide back into old behavior. There is NO doubt about that.

If you let him say "he's been to counseling in the past and didn't get good results" then you're just letting those drugs sit right there on the table in front of him. He's absolutely going to use them... in fact, him saying those words all by themselves is a concern. He is making an excuse to avoid his problem. Do you see how that is possible? That's the kind of thinking that got him into his abusive ways, and it needs to be taken away from him.

He probably didn't have success in the past because he doesn't like to hear that there is something he is doing wrong. What you need to do is make IC another ultimatum. You BOTH need it. He needs it to EVER have a chance of getting over his "addiction" and you need it to help you stay strong for your husband and fix your own problems, too.

If you get weak at all or if he refuses to get help, then it is just SO likely that you two are going to have the same problems forever.

Here are some things that you might want to tell him:

Tell him you're really sorry, and you hate it, but you just can't stay with him unless he gets counseling. Tell him you've thought about it completely and you know you need him to do it. Explain briefly that you need to make SURE that he won't accidentally hurt you again, because you just can't handle it anymore. Say that you want him more than anything, and you know if he hurts you again that the marraige will be over, and that's the last thing you want. Don't use too many words, and NEVER waver.

He'll probably respond in a very similar way as before. Be ready for that. Be ready for anger. You might even want to do this somewhere a little bit public just in case he is upset. That will help to keep him from getting too angry and force him to actually think about it. Now you're really starting to get at his problems, so it's going to really hurt for him to hear it. He's been avoiding it for a really long time.

After, give him as much time and space as he needs. Don't waver on your statement. KEEP YOUR BACKBONE, no matter what he says.

You saw how much having that backbone could help last time. That's exactly why you have to keep doing it! If there's any chance for you two, you have to keep being extremely strong (that's why you need IC too).

Your plan of waiting to "persuade him at appropriate times" just isn't going to work. I can't really explain without making this much longer, so I'll just ask this: are you starting to see why? If not, I'll be happy to further explain in another post!

God, I'm sorry this has gotten so long. I just really want your husband to get better. I don't want all of the doubters to turn out right.

Please let me know what you think. I'm really hoping things work out for you!

I think that you all should separate and seek individual counseling in a big way.

After all, there is a child involved here.

I REALLY like this idea.

I think that for you two, being separated is the best way to get back together.

To continue what I was saying before with the drug addiction analogy: if you try to stay together through this, then it's like having all of the drugs in the house while you try to quit. Not only is it nearly impossible, but there's just no good reason to do it.

If you tell him that you NEED a few months apart with therapy, I think your chances of fixing your problems will be much better.

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this problem

BA -

I am a betrayed (and soon-to-be-ex) spouse. I was angry. Very angry. I also have a quick temper and am given to verbal temper tantrums in which I "fight to win."

I have worked very hard the past year to change my behaviour (including anti-depressants).

But, BA, even at my very worst I never engaged in the type of verbal abuse your husband has dished out.

Yes. I have no doubt he is hurt. But so are all of the betrayed spouses who have replied to you in this thread.

We've all been betrayed. We've all been hurt. We've all been angry. We've all lashed out at your wayward spouses. But, BA, very few of us have done what your husband is doing.

In my opinion he is using your feelings of guilt to manipulate you, to humiliate you ... to put you in your place.

This is not typical behaviour. This is far from typical.

Yes, you messed up and you did something awful. In doing so you hurt someone you love. But you do NOT deserve this.

I've asked BH a few times, but he's been to counseling in the past and didn't get good results so isn't willing to go now, but I can keep trying to persuade him at appropriate times.

I've actually seen this type of statement a lot here. I get it, but I'm not willing to accept it.

IC is a highly subjective field. We're dealing with personalities, character traits, emotions and relationships here. So finding the best IC can be a bit of a hit or miss effort.

I entered IC as a conflict avoider. Our MC was a challenger - someone who held your feet to the fire until you got to the bottom line. Had I used her as an IC, I would have shut down and gotten nowhere. The IC I ultimately used was more methodical, working around the issue until I got there myself. It took longer, but I didn't shut down and eventually got where I needed to be.

Even now, I'm looking at maybe needing an IC change. I've been fighting off some strong symptoms of depression lately, and knew I needed to talk to someone. Unfortunately, my IC refuses to schedule by leaving potential times on voice mail (I do a ton of conference calls during the week and he's not available after hours), so it took us 10 days just to connect so we could schedule a session. We'll see how it goes, but if I don't feel like it was a terrific first step toward addressing my depression I may start seeking a different IC that is more in line with what I need now.

So you may want to take the approach of "interviewing potential IC's" rather than just give up because he "tried it and it didn't work for him". Set up intake appointments with a couple of different styles to see if your BH connects with any of them.

myworld, I think the abuse got blown out of proportion a bit with the previous threads and responses. The slapping was rare, and light, and only happened no more than ten times last year. The verbal, yes he can say very biting words, but I've sensed a real change in the way he talks to me the last couple days. Even when he's troubled by mind movies he doesn't call me names. I wish I can help him though.

I do know that I try to justify his actions sometimes. His digging his heel in about what he got out of being with other women, for instance, probably was at least in part intended to hurt me. My guilt over my A does color how I see everything he does though, because I've seen how devastated he's been by it and my heart breaks when I see him sad. My impulse is to do anything to make him happier, but I'm learning sometimes putting MY foot down IS what helps him too.

"I wish you can listen too." Sorry I know I frustrate a lot of you who care about me with insisting to stay. I am listening, but I know my situation most intimately and I KNOW he's not violet and DD and I are safe. I just need the keep working on that new backbone that I grew

lostperfection, thank you for you support. I definitely appreciate all the support I get on SI. It helped me grow a backbone already. I definately agree that he needs to change some of the ways he treats me. HE said that himself. IC though would be hard. BH's personality doesn't work well with counseling. I do want to keep looking and if I find some that may work, I'll ask BH to try an interview. I don't want to give an ultimatum on IC though, because I have doubts about how much it works myself. My current plan is to communicate honestly and clearly with BH, and hold firm to boundaries. He didn't like the way I was way too passive and acted subservient in the past (and still am in some ways). I think by insisting on him treating me with respect and avoiding haning out with other women, I can create a more equal atmosphere in our M. I want the two of us to work this out on our own first.

I understand the drug analogy. BH has had experience with that in the past. The thing is he has VERY strong will power. When he wanted to quit, he quits. The one thing I'm confident about his sincerity to stay and really try to work this out with me is because he loves DD beyond anything else. He would cut off his arm for her. He wants to see her everyday, and knows that we need to get along for him to be there for her. I also know that deep down his intention is to protect me, not harm me. Keeping that in mind helps me to speak my mind more frankly with him because I know, anger and sadness aside, he does care about me. That's why I think the best option is for us to stay together to work this out.

I'll be honest, BA, you lost me when you said, "The slapping was rare, and light, and only happened no more than ten times last year."

Ten times? TEN times?

And you don't see that as a problem?

Ten times? Really?

I'm sorry honey, but more than once is really too much.

I mean I can almost understand in the heat of a really bitter fight (like D-day) one might snap and slap another person. I admit that I slapped my husband upside the back of his head. Once. And only once.

Ten times in a year is over the top.

If your daughter grew up and had a husband who hit her - and yes, a slap is a hit no matter who is doing it and it is wrong - ten times in one year what would you do?

I'm serious, BA, I have had problems with anger management in the past. I hit my husband.

Sure it was a slap. And it only happened once. But it was wrong.

Ten times is over the top.

Asking you to pick him up from the hotel where he did have, or tried to have, a revenge affair, telling you you're worthless, telling you that nothing you do now only what you did matters ...

For the love of yourself, BA, add it up.

Maybe he is a good guy underneath it all - but for his sake, your sake and the sake of your daughter you need to wake up and realize that this situation is toxic.

BA- I'm going to back off your posts. If you ever want to talk to me, please don't hesitate to pm me. I'll be there for you.

I know you are trying to make this sound ok, but I have to tell you when I read,

The slapping was rare, and light, and only happened no more than ten times last year.

I wanted to for you. My actual first thought was, That was 10 more than there should have been and 9 more than my H would have lived to tell about.

(((BA)))) Just hugs to you.

I understand the drug analogy. BH has had experience with that in the past. The thing is he has VERY strong will power. When he wanted to quit, he quits.

Well, since you're not willing to budge on the IC thing (which I doubt you can find a single person here who agrees with you), I'll at least say this: the notion that your husband has made the decision to quit a drug addiction in the past and easily done so is promising.

So, he's the kind of person who makes a decision and then sticks to it, period. OK then. It sounds like a fairy tale, but I can relate because my BGF is a little similar in this regard. So I will just finish with this: Just make damned sure that you do NOT budge on his abuse ever again. It's going to be surprisingly easy for you both to slip back into your old habits. Be ready for it and NEVER make a compromise on abuse.

BA- I'm going to back off your posts. If you ever want to talk to me, please don't hesitate to pm me. I'll be there for you.

I know you are trying to make this sound ok, but I have to tell you when I read,

The slapping was rare, and light, and only happened no more than ten times last year.

I wanted to for you. My actual first thought was, That was 10 more than there should have been and 9 more than my H would have lived to tell about.

I was thinking how to answer your post when pentup posted, and I feel just like her, she put my thoughts into words.

Sorry I know I frustrate a lot of you who care about me with insisting to stay. I am listening, but I know my situation most intimately and I KNOW he's not violet and DD and I are safe.

No, you are not safe neither is your DD.

pm me anytime you wish, in the meantime hugs to you and I wish you LISTEN.

ditto what Pentup said...PM me anytime...

The slapping was rare, and light, and only happened no more than ten times last year.

This sounds so ridiculous to the rest of us. I have a counciler who is helping me. He has been in the field of abuse for the past 35 years. He would call your husband abusive. Yeah, I am sure your husband is a nice guy. I am a nice guy. My wife must see that in me to stick with me after what I have put her through. Yet, I am an abuser. Your husband is an abuser. It is not about anger. It is about our handling of life and emotions. Without help, he will once again abuse you. Fact.

You are not helping him by seeing him through this frankly insulting view of him as sooooo loving that we all just can't understand his emotions. My wife and I have a very special relationship as well. I love her deeply. I am still an abuser and my wife has zero tolerance for that kind of behavior. I guess we are not so special huh?

I am sorry if my last was a bit flippant, but that is the way it comes across to me, and it is insulting. Your husband abuses you. In a normal, loving relationship, people actually go through some serious shit without hitting, verbally abusing, emotionally abusing each other.

It is your choice. You have page after page of people giving you thier heartfelt opinions on this matter. I wish you well.

BA, slapping IS violent. His slapping you is violent behavior. People who demonstrate violent behaviors are violent people!

TEN TIMES???

Burnt - Do you think abuse has to be constant to be called abuse?

Do you walk on eggshells?