SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I would stay if everyone's realtionship started out with lies and deceit and the hope that the potential for the said "partner" wouldn't cheat on me if they're cheating with me...then yes, I think all of those relationships could be classified as "fantasy".

First of all, I never said everyone's anything. Do some relationships start with lies and deceit? Hell yeah. Only they're not called that. They're viewed more as "artful presentation".

The enjoyment of things never liked. The adventuresome "activities" sidelined later and never offered again. Hell, the push up bra alone can qualify as a little fib...'specially if it's padded. The entire interview mentality that many dating relationships have and that can range from benign to down right nefarious. I have a friend that let her guy believe she was Giada De Laurentiis (the South Park spoof on chefs and the shake weight episode was golden). She almost burned their apartment down when she put a pizza in the oven to warm...on br (you know, for brown) in the cardboard box. I believe that's called a clue.

The potential part comes into play not just for the one that offers "a" when "b" is what the other person will really get. It's also about all the red flags seen, registered, then dismissed because it doesn't fit with the "goal". He/she isn't affectionate but they're just needing to be shown love, he/she cheated in every relationship, but I'm sure they'll be faithful to me. They really love me.

Telling someone lies is sadly a very big part of many relationships. Hiding purchases... What this old thing? Masturbate? Never! Happy? Blissfully...and quite possibly the biggest of all time. "What's wrong?" "nothing". Many of these are tongue in cheek but many people lie about many things and dating is not always the disclosure time of the relationship. That sometimes tragically comes much much later.

So are affairs fantasy? Not to me since the definition contains "impossible" or "improbable" and some affairs are neither of these things. Some folks always have a plane on the tarmac when preparing to leave a relationship. I know some on this site were in a relationship when they met their current spouse. As much as it disgusts most...and should, a relationship coming from an affair is neither impossible or even improbable. It's success rate is very low, but it ain't a unicorn. It's a fucked up view of a potential for something you'll not possess until you do the hard work on yourself and stop making horrible choices.

Just like the post yesterday about the "face of infidelity". Yep, it's horrifying...and pretty rare. We're surrounded all too often with other "faces of infidelity" like Tom Hanks and Brad Pitt.

To me, banking on unrealized "potential" with eyes wide shut in any situation is a very dangerous choice. To me.

To me.

Reality vs Fantasy. I thought on this much yesterday.

Sure we could get into the whole shadows on a cave wall thing. But I think that if you experience it. its real.

Regarding LTAs. I only have a view of one side of this. But my belief is that they must be allot like teenage first romances. We all had them. Very intense they were. So were they real? Yes. Were the feelings and all the rest real? yes.

But they were not adult romances. Fantasy and angst were the fabric of the whole thing. But fantasy was part of the experience. A big part of what made that relationship so intense and special and life altering.

And we also had our parents there. I think in LTAs BS play the role of parents. Limiting and crushing the fantasy. Parents/BS just dont understand how *this* is true love. And somehow our parents disproving. Not understanding. Somehow made the relationship more intense. Like Romeo and Juliet.

In time the relationship ends. We mature. and we move on. But that romance was a very real thing.

About recovery for the BS after Dday. I think if these questions are brought up to early they can be harmful. We WANT. We NEED to feel that the LTA relationship was solely based on fantasy and therefore unreal.

But it wasnt unreal. It was very real. The feelings that I saw my WW express in her love letters to OM were very intense and very real. The HARD truth is that my WW loved OM. She loved him with an intensity that she never had and never will have for me. Maybe those feelings were not sustainable in the long run. But that does not take away from the reality of it.

I think eventually a BS has to come to cope with reality. But that coping if taken on to early can be poison to the soul. Eventually though we have to realize that our WS were deeply in love with the OP (in the case of LTAs). And the sex was the best they ever had and probably the best they ever will have. They were so in love with them that they would gladly toss away the mature love and family and stability we offered them. Just as when we were young that we would have abandoned our parents for the sake of our *one true love*.

Yes. IMO the feelings and all the rest of it that went with a LTA are very real.

And thats something we BS just have to learn to deal with.

Eventually though we have to realize that our WS were deeply in love with the OP (in the case of LTAs). And the sex was the best they ever had and probably the best they ever will have. They were so in love with them that they would gladly toss away the mature love and family and stability we offered them. Just as when we were young that we would have abandoned our parents for the sake of our *one true love*.

Razor, in my mind, a BS who accepts what you just wrote as "reality" is a BS who is stuck in fantasy and still has a lot to work through.

Why is it that all these WS's who were in love- who shared a mutual love with their AP, rarely ever leave their BS?

Can't be guilt or morals or a sense of responsibility to the family unit that keeps these true-love lovers apart.

Single people consider stage and probability to determine a potential for a future.

WS's consider stage and probability to determine a potential immediate feel-good partner.

Razor, your post is very thought provoking (for me, at least). I very much want to be sure that I am dealing with the reality of my FWH's LTA. I do not want to sugar coat it and justify or minimize what happened. Sometimes I am afraid that I am doing that. But, I think that his LTA was different than your WW's. I don't say that just based on what he has told me, but also based on the e-mails that I saw between them during the course of their relationship.

According to my FWH, his was a LTA that should have been short-term. He tried to end it a few months in, but she became distraught. He could not deal with that. Every time he subsequently tried to end it, she escalated her response--up to and including threats of suicide. Finally, she tried to contact me and tell me about it. He managed to convince me that it was not true (yeah, I am stupid and trusting, or at least I was then). He was then convinced that if he didn't stay in the relationship with her, she would make sure I knew and he did not want that to happen. He was prepared to avoid that at all costs.

Did he tell her he loved her? Yes, I did see that. Were there grand professions of love and commitment? No, nothing like that. Maybe he was too smart to put it in writing, I don't know. According to him, everything that he did, he did to appease her and keep her under control. By the end, he was so miserable about the situation, he was suicidal. He just felt totally stuck, no way out. I knew at the time that he felt suicidal, I just didn't know why, as he could not tell me the truth about it.

Okay, that's his story. Is that the reality of what happened? How can I know? I would really like to, as I do want to deal with reality. I suspect that it is largely the truth, but that there are some things that have "evolved" in the telling. Memories, perceptions shift over time. It was 5 years, after all. Should I take his version of things now as the "reality" that I need to accept?

The two stages of love - infatuation and mature - are what I believe are the issue here. Infatuation stage, what teenagers feel, what we all feel when we first meet someone, is what the A is built on. It's a high. The hormones are released. Everything feels good. All one can think of is the other person. It's extremely passionate and feels amazing. And, as we all know, it doesn't last. It either turns into mature love or it dies. This is what the emotional part of the A is built on - the WS getting that feeling.

Many As die simply because the AP starts to demand more. More time, more affection, more something. It goes from a high to a burden, and the infatuation dies. That's when the WS sees the person for who they are, and sees what they've been doing.

This, in essence, is 'the fog'. It feels so good, so right, that ending it isn't even an option.

My H ended his EA after 3 months. Why? because that feeling was dying. The OW wanted more. She started complaining about her real life. It wasn't all fairy tales and I love yous. It was "Why can't you send me some money?" "When are you coming to see me?" "You don't care do you?" "Why didn't you call me last night?"

It wasn't a secret love anymore, it was a pain in the ass. Dead infatuation.

So, is it 'real'? Yes. Is it lasting? No.

Hoping, I had to keep checking to make sure I had not written your post. That's exactly the story that my H has given me, and it's the only one that makes sense, given the facts that I have been able to gather, the behavior of H and OW, and the events as they have played out over the past year.

I am like you. I don't want to be comfortable with a "reality" or "fantasy" or whatever that turns out to not be the truth. It was so very hard when I believed him prior to our false R and then found out almost everything he had told me was a lie.

They were so in love with them that they would gladly toss away the mature love and family and stability we offered them.

Then, simply, why don't they leave that mature love and family stability?

That would make sense if they actually tossed it all away, but when the whole thing is discovered, what is tossed is the AP and the nonsense, and they cling for dear life to what is real.

That would make sense if they actually tossed it all away, but when the whole thing is discovered, what is tossed is the AP and the nonsense, and they cling for dear life to what is real.

Well, they do toss it all away. After an A, what's left is an ugly mess, a devasted BS and a WS that is viewed as a piece of shit. They tossed away all of the good feelings and trust. They just didn't physically leave. Don't confuse the two.

Why do they toss the AP? Because an A is like masturbation. They do it because it makes them feel good. Catching them is like opening the door while the WS is masturbating. It's embarrassing. They stop and want everyone to pretend it never happened.

No one wants to masturbate for life. It just feels good in the moment.

Razor ~ I don't think this is true for all LTA's. My FWH didn't love OW and according to him the sex was different, not the best. If I thought what you believe/know is true for your situation I would have to leave that relationship. I couldn't continue to torture myself. (((Razor)))

hoping ~ my story is very similiar to yours, except my FWH never wrote anything to OW and never told OW he loved her. He used her. He was selfish with me and he was selfish with OW. I really don't know why this OW continued with my FWH because he was so f**king selfish, the affair was all about him.

But the affair was very real. The fantasy part for my FWH was that he could call this OW up at any time and she was ready willing and able to have sex with him on demand. His fantasy was that he could actually have NSA sex. He had his own personal slut on call, and he didn't have to give her anything in return. Until.....she started demanding more. OW wasn't happy to be the cumdumpster forever.

Edited for clarity.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:38 AM, November 23rd (Wednesday)]

Don't confuse the two.

I'm not confused.

By "tossed" I'm referring to the proverbial "throwing the AP under the bus". What I often see is this stupid, immature kind of...attachment, for lack of a better word. I see what hoping described...the escalation of the demands, the threats of suicide if the WS tries to end it... Teenage stuff. STUPID stuff. Not mature, sustaining connection. I often see a weak WS who doesn't know how to get out of it, who is scared into continuing on because they're afraid of what the AP will do--whether it be actually killing themselves, or simply telling someone and ruining their "real" life. I see a lot of pacifying of the AP with words and no action. ("I will leave my wife and family.") And then I see many a WS who is horrified at their behavior once the illusion is shattered. They can't get away from it fast enough.

How many times have you heard on here "What is real was right in front of me."?

What is "fun" is the fantasy. The escape from reality.

I think we're all getting hung up on our perceptions of fantasy and reality. Because I'm not deluded into thinking these things didn't happen at all. But I am damn sure not convinced that that kind of lurrrrve is real love. It's selfish nonsense.

In my opinion.

I'm not deluded into thinking these things didn't happen at all.

Right. Speaking on behalf of all BS's and WS's who characterize A's and AP's as fantasy, I'd like to take this opportunity to say that we really don't think that the sex, the words, the betrayal, the pain, was in any way a figment of our imagination. Thank you.

Because an A is like masturbation. They do it because it makes them feel good.

I read My Secret Garden so I know that masturbators fantasize to help that good feeling along

"What is real was right in front of me."

What is real in front of the masturbator isn't conducive to the masturbator's quest for the feel-good...a little tweaking of reality does the trick.

Could it be that everyone has their own thesaurus and dictionary in their head?

That everyone reacts to a "word or words" consistent with their own experiences, with their own dictionary/thesaurus?

That opinions are just that...

Each person's perspective/ reaction is based on using their personal observations and innate tools to express what is real to them.

All real, all truth.......for them.

FWH has every intention in the world to grow up, and yet all I have at this moment is a very compliant, panicked promiser. NC has been ironclad. Loving words and gestures are delivered. He's a dish washing, laundry doing, baby helping, yet full-time working marvel.

And yet, if I look at the reality of ever being happy with him, all signs point to no. There are significant judgement and foresight genes that I feel FWH has always been lacking, and it's always made me feel insecure with trusting him. The A was the icing on my concern-cake.

I hang on hoping that he'll magically be the person I want to be with someday, but today it's not the case.

Fantasy supposes that all his hard work will soften me. Fantasy insists that I will never find anyone else who wants to raise my daughter and grow old with me, so I have to stick it out.

Reality says run. I'm not running. And I don't plan on it.

So I'm pretty sure I'm not accepting reality. Not sure what do do with that. 

Holy shit. I went back and read all this and saw this. I'm sorry, Jrazz. Got lost in the left turn at Albuquerque.

You strip out the fear and negative self talk and start to heal yourself. Treat yourself with kindness and patience. His actions are real too and those are positive right now. He's not breaking NC or lying to you. Is he working on himself?

My Original Post, way back in the day, was for those in toxic situations on both sides. Spouses that are continuing affairs, still in contact, not doing the hard work they need to do, getting angry at questions, asking you when they've paid enough dues, lacking all elements of remorse.

Your WS may very well be in the compliant stage that is headed toward commitment. Or not. You'll know in time, but as long as you take care of yourself and enforce your boundaries you are very much dealing with reality.

Reality doesn't require action. Just opening your eyes to the truth. Some choose to stay knowing exactly what they have or don't have. They've accepted the truth and it fits for their current situation. That wasn't my focus at all.

As I shared with someone in a PM. It's those on this site that are in such pain and are holding on to some sliver of potential they saw at one point despite the cruel unremorseful bull shit they're being shoveled daily by someone not worth one more second of their time much less one more tear. THAT was my target.

Because an A is like masturbation. They do it because it makes them feel good.

Also known as fancy masturbation.