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Yes, that was the topic in IC last week. Kissing. Don't ask me how we got there. IDK. But we did.

Kissing. I've always adored it. BH has always had a bit of a germaphobe attitude about it. But we did a lot of it, especially in the early days. It's fun. It's arousing. It's intimate. Somewhere along the line though, we stopped kissing. I hadn't thought much about it.

Fast forward to last weekend. BH and I were discussing our "state of the union", and I asked him for his thoughts....why we just completely stopped kissing each other. He had no answer, but it shed light on some pre-A stuff that needed to be addressed.

Today I am stunned that a simple thing like kissing 'maybe' could have saved our relationship. Sure, there were times when our sex life took a temporary dive...but when/why did the kissing dissapear?

Thoughts from SI? Similar experiences?

Similar problem and it such a huge issue/trigger for me I can't stand to elaborate right now.

We have made some progress...

I get it...kissing is extremely intimate and for some, it's part of their love language. I know it is for me and for BH - physical touch. I can see how this can be a factor, but I see it as more of a symptom of a bigger problem.

why did the kissing dissapear?

is an excellent place to start...Hmm, maybe that's something BH & I could discuss further...if you're going to explore this in IC, I'd be interested to know the outcome...

It disappeared for us too.

Dunno why.

It disappeared for us too. For nearly 17 yrs.

I didn't realize it until shortly after I had started IC, right before I moved out. I realized I had stopped kissing him right after I found out about his first EA. I think I closed a lot of my emotions off after that. Sex became just sex for me. I had so much anger, I totally rugswept the whole thing.

Needless to say, that has come back. I was a huge thing. We are determined not to let that happen again.

I can't even remember the last time we kissed pre-sex. Every once in a blue moon it's during. Pecks of course are okay. Me personally? I'm a bit odd, but I think it has a lot to do with how much he lies - hard to be that intimate when you lie constantly. (madhatter and spouse is too)

Yup, disappeared for us too. Coming back slowly. I think I like it better then she does though.

Yep kissing has been gone with my H and me for 15 years. Except for sometimes during sex.

We do a peck on the cheek before work and a peck at night before sleep.

Hmmm, I always liked kissing. I don't think my H does.

Good topic for discussion.

This topic really gets me going. For reasons I can't explain fully, I have just as much of a problem with the fact that humbleintn KISSED the OW as I do with the fact he had sex with her. I mean, I can see kissing as a prelude to sex. And most of the time they kissed even when sex wasn't going on, she came to him and he just reciprocated. But there were a few times she showed up at his work and he went to her and kissed her. He says there was never any emotions for her and that "to him", kissing her wasn't showing affection or intimacy. It was simply a way for him to get attention and affirmation. He was "taking" emotions from her that was making her feel good i.e. ego-boost, affirmation, adoration, her love for him, etc. but he wasn't "giving" anything in return. I guess the kissing her part for me bothers me because for me, I equate kissing with emotion and intimacy. For him, he equated it with just getting attention, affirmation and his ego boosted. The OW was a person he didn't even like BEFORE the affair and he wasn't even attracted to previously. He says she was just "tolerable" in order to get the feelings he was getting out of it. He used to say how annoying she was, how she was ugly, how she talked too much, couldn't stand her, etc. before it all started. Heck, he even said those things to other people even when it was going on! He says when it started, she was just the person that was there when he was vulnerable. It did go on for 2 years - but he never bought her anything, never took her anywhere, didn't want her to speak to him in public even when I wasn't around as he didn't like her at all outside of what he was "getting" from her.

So for you WS's - is it possible for you that you kissed the other person without "feeling" anything for them other than the ego stroking you were getting? That kisses to the OP wasn't the same as kisses to your spouses with feeling.

I hope I'm making sense. I'm just so frustrated trying to make sense of things these days that my brain is all jumbled up with thoughts that may not always come out coherently when I try to get them out

[This message edited by travelmom at 2:37 PM, May 7th (Monday)]

Kissing, we never really did a lot of it during our entire M, but it's something I love and sparks desire. Probably part of the problem is DH's not so fresh mouth at times, despite his best efforts. We both do love it though, and wish we did it more. It helps to strengthen a bond I think b/c it't intimate and passionate and sweet, all at the same time. I miss it, and wish we would do it more.

Yup he stopped kissing me during affair and before it.... It's back. Missed it.

I think it's common for kissing to go away. It's like there is impatience to get right to the main course and skip the app. Kissing involves effort, it's a way to test the waters of the unknown, it requires slow seduction, it's part of foreplay, it increases the sexual tension. The loss or lack of foreplay is a real issue, not just for myself, but many. It's not because there is a loss of interest in sex, it's the loss of intimacy, and to be honest, it's a natural progression of having sex with the same person for many years.

If I ask to just kiss, he'll comply, but I eventually give up the endeavor because he's really not into it. The only times we've had a real kissing session are far and few between, but for me, are brought about by make up sex, why, because it's a challenge, I'm pissed, he doesn't want me to be pissed and he wants to get it in. Maybe we should fight more often (tongue in cheek).

No stop sign..so.. Here I go... I stopped kissing my WH long before he had his A. I was angry and resentful. We had a lot of issues in our marriage. None were addressed. The longer that went on the less I wanted to kiss. The less I wanted to kiss the easier it was for me to detach. The more I detached and focused on me and the kids, the worse and more lost he felt....

Kissing. It really was as simple as that. It can help it or break it.

I remember when I had called out the A. We hadn't kissed in forever. I really honestly couldn't remember when had been the last time. And then a day or two later, things were so bad.. And I grabbed him and looked him in the eye, my eyes tearing... and I gave him a kiss that neither of us had expected. It was that kiss, we discussed later, that helped him, and me too, decide WE were worth fighting for.

My WXH stopped kissing me when he began his first A.

We are divorced, and I'm dating. The first time that a man kissed me, I cried.

I had a panic attack, because it was so intimate and so nice that I realized how much I missed it. I still have a really difficult time with it.

I am BIG on physical touch....kissing,hugging, hand holding, snuggling, etc....and I think when this went out of our marriage in 2009, it was the start of my dissatisfaction and unrest.

My BH was on Pristiq, which sucked the very life out of him, so we went 2+ years living more like celibate room mates than anything else. I may have received 2, maybe 3 hugs in that time frame, and believe me, I was counting!!

Since he is off the Pristiq, and in the aftermath of my A, we are slowly reconnecting physically, and the things that were missing before are returning.

I have no qualms about laying one on him whenever and wherever the mood strikes....in the cleaning supply aisle in Lowe's, stopped at a traffic light, in line at the grocery....LOL, yesterday he was on the mower when I stalked him down and distracted him for a few minutes.

I could never go back to the desolate wasteland that we had before the A...and we are working on the communication problems that led to the distance and withdrawl to begin with.

I agree with wwnomore & MisssesJai....I love the intimacy and arousal factor of kissing...and a lot of the time BH and I will deliberately take it a bit too far, knowing that's as far as it can go right then (well, if we ever want to be allowed back in Lowe's, that is.....LOL!)

It's all part of the flirting and keeping the intrigue and spark in the marriage....for me at least!

Wow ... What an interesting and triggery topic for me.....

"Kissing. I've always adored it. BH has always had a bit of a germaphobe attitude about it. "

I identify with this so much. I adore kissing..... I kissed my husband first. I think kissing is lovely and seductive and enticing. I love kissing .... I used to make up excuses to kiss my husband. Let's kiss in the car, let's kiss at the store, and at first he let me kiss him ... But after a while his body language told me he didn't enjoy it. I don't even remember when it happened. I remember trying to kiss goodnight and joking that he had to peck me at least four times for it to count. I love to kiss passionately but I remember my husband tighting his lips and I felt him tense up and then wipe away ......I felt completely rejected every single time yet I would try and try for years.

I remember I longed for him to kiss me passionately. I longed for him to kiss me lovingly... I once asked him if he even liked to kiss or was it that he just didn't like kissing me and he got angry and said that I made him sound like a wierdo. I didn't mean to make it sound like that.... I really was confused, was it me or was it him? For a very long time .... I concluded it was me, there was something wrong with me. But I know now that it wasn't me at all. This is his to own and explain at some point.

But that was pre affair. Since d-day he seems to enjoy kissing and I think we have kissed more in the last year than in many years pre A. Part of me is so confused by this. Why was he so unwilling to kiss me before? Why didn't he kiss me like this before? The other part of me is thankful ..... Happy that we are kissing now. I LOVE kissing my husband .....

I would love to kiss him more. I would love to have makeout sessions on some nights we don't have sex. I would love to sneak in a squishy kiss in the middle of the day. I would love to be awoken by a gentle loving kiss. I dont know how to ask for this. I am terrified of rejection. I feel lucky that we kiss at all after what I have done. I don't know when it will be ok for me to ask for more - what's the timeline ? When will I not be terrified of rejection?

So sorry for the total t/j ...... I guess what I am trying to say is I agree with you ... Kissing is important and the lack of it is a sign that something isn't right. When the kissing goes away, its a symptom of bigger problems.

Jeez...... I hate opening these old wounds ..... It stings and hurts like if they were fresh ......

[This message edited by so-wrong at 11:49 PM, May 7th (Monday)]

For me personally, you can fake other things before intimacy...and kissing is intimate to me. My husband and I used to kiss literally for hours. Not any more.

Like in Pretty Woman (pardon the reference to a prostitute) when it talked about their rules to never kiss a 'john'.

Thank you everyone, for responding! And, I do apologize to those that were triggered. I understand it can be a touchy topic....but I am about to expand on this. Some may want to shut their eyes now:

Who remembers Julia Roberts'character in Pretty Woman refusing to kiss? Vivian had a reason for that!

Before BH and I became a couple, he showed up unannounced at my apartment, and saw me kissing another man in the parking lot. We were both dating other people at the time. BH went off the deep end about how it was worse than if he'd seen me having sex with this man. He talked about "the nasties" in our mouths...sharing that with another person...and it requiring so much cooperation between two people. About a month after that, BH asked if we could be exclusive.

I saw kissing as an essential, beautiful part of a relationship, much the same way BH saw BJ's as being essential (partly joking there!). I think maybe the power struggle that was our M started there. He would refuse to kiss me after any oral sex activity. It was one or the other for him. The kissing lost out.

At about 5 years in, after we'd had 2 babies back-to-back, there was no kissing at all. I wonder if BH had a little madonna complex going on? Meaning that he couldn't see me as both his lover and the mother of his kids. I'd hear BH say "we don't need to act like horny teenagers". Later on, BH's marijuana breath was a turn-off, but I still yearned for those make out sessions with him.

My A began when I met a dear old friend for a drink. As AP was getting in his car to leave that first night, I gave him a peck on the cheek. AP countered with a full on passionate kiss. I spent the night with him.

I know that my A was me rebelling against many forces within me...FOO issues and an identity crisis, codependency over BH's addiction to pot, and the power play of my M. I know that I could have, definitely should have, said NO. More than anything, I should have talked to BH about kissing, because it might have brought a lot of things to light for both of us.

If I could do the M all over, I'd take his face in my hands and plant one on him every single day. It sounds like a simple thing, but there is SO much meaning behind it. No, it's never "just kissing".

I have IC on Thursday. I will let you know what comes out of the discussion.

((SI))

travelmom asked:

So for you WS's - is it possible for you that you kissed the other person without "feeling" anything for them other than the ego stroking you were getting? That kisses to the OP wasn't the same as kisses to your spouses with feeling.

Kissing triggered the brain chemical cocktail that helped me to think I had love feelings for AP. We were old chums too though, so there were other feelings invovled. I would have rather been kissing BH, with his full investment in the act.

WhatsRight - we were on the same page at the same time with the Pretty Woman reference.

[This message edited by wwnomore at 9:16 AM, May 8th (Tuesday)]

Kissing--the absence therof--was a huge flash point in our marriage.

I too love kissing, love it. A few years ago I noticed that we weren't kissing at all, not even little pecks. I watched for a few weeks to see if I was just misrepresenting the situation, and no, I was not. So I pointed this out to my husband. He didn't believe it at first (a joking, "really?") and though I said it was troubling to me, and made me sad, he totally blew it off.

Even now, years later and after we have been to hell and back, are better now than ever (including lots of kissing!), I still cry at the recollection that he was completely unconcerned when I pointed this out to him and how sad it made me. It hurt so badly.