SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Earlier this year there was a Wayward thread talking about what may be taboo to talk about on this site. There are many things which come to mind, but I know personally they are rarely asked by me. As of late, some 2 and half years in, I’ve been thinking to ask a couple of lingering questions. I plan to keep them in Wayward as to not directly incite additional pain in the BS or WS members.

Let me start with the setup. We can all agree, the any of the following could be construed as the warning flags for conversational or emotion movement outside of a relationship:

1) Your partner starts to say or share things to a person(s) that you wouldn’t if you were standing next to them.

2) Your partner goes out of their way to repeatedly converse with these people, during the day, at night and weekends. They look forward to the opportunity to converse with them and hear what they have to say.

3) The conversations are unique because most, if not all of these interactions, are held secretive and guarded from you.

4) Your partner begins confiding more and more about themselves, their feelings and in some case, other personal details.

5) These other individuals become their “go to” when something important, positive or negative happens to them. They begin to have discussions that deliberately move these new contacts into the role of primary support or caregiver—this occurs as they start to share their deepest struggles, life’s ambitions and intimate longings. These conversations create a powerful “no-one-else-understands-me-like-they-do” bond.

6) Along the way they may start comparing you to the other’s spouses or partners —and it should be no surprise that you and their partners fail to make the grade.

7) Your partner deceives you. This is a clear indication that they are stepping outside the boundaries of the relationship. If you ask your partner about their day, they omit any reference to the conversations above (aka secretive #3), and even if you know about them, they may go out of their way to minimize their significance.

Now if you agree these are foundational elements that should never occur outside of the relationship, how do you rationalize their widespread occurrence of such interactions, open or PM conversations on this site? I could go down each number and reference how they apply here. Or is sharing details of yourself and your relationship to any other in time of pain just part of human nature?

Now before you sharpen the 2 x 4, those aren’t my real questions. My question is: With all the accepted and desired care, trust and comfort given by outsiders on this site, what becomes the catalyst to return the emotional investment back into the relationship? Why would you revert back to seeking the support and trust from “that person” in your relationship if you already have it readily available in abundance here?

Wow HowIheal, I have pondered this same thinking. Specifically, that I feel somewhat wrong for coming to the site, unbeknownst to BH, b/c I am looking for ways to work through A issues, without dragging him through it all again. And actually when he was well aware I was on here yrs ago and periodically through the A, he would say he didn't think it was good for me b/c it was keeping my head focused in the A. Now, I simply wouldn't want him to know b/c some of the content of my posts, and even some replies to them, would be VERY hurtful to him. But consider this, what about everything one divulges to their IC? Couldn't this be seen in the same light as you are presenting? But in actuality IC is a healthy place, and we sure as hell aren't expected to tell our spouse everythign that goes on there, it would be counterproductive. So I personally feel this is a private support group, even much like an AA, or an NA, and things are confidential in those places, so why can't they be here? I like that you posed that question, and I can definitely see the parallels, often thinking the same thing myself.

Well then...you could say the same about IC too.

I am not discounting some of the merits of this site. I have heard from my wife on multiple occasions “they understand me” and thus her dialogue (about us and our relationship) it taken outside.

As for MC and IC appointments, I’d say most, if not all, are known to occur by both parties. And even in some case, they are setup, if not scheduled and monitored for attendance, by the other person. Whereas some of the dialogue may be strictly confidential, here you have professionally trained individuals with the resources to evaluate, coach and monitor progress. Maybe there’s a few IC’s that say “don’t talk to your partner … bring all your conversations here”, but I doubt it. In fact, they are probably on the exact opposite side of the spectrum, directing an individual to open up, be expressive and join/re-engage in the conversation.

Just thoughts

In fact, they are probably on the exact opposite side of the spectrum, directing an individual to open up, be expressive and join/re-engage in the conversation.

I can honestly I have never had anyone on this site tell me NOT to talk to my WH. Quite frankly, it's often the opposite.

I think that as betrayed spouses, yes, we do understand each other on an elemental level. But the majority of people and posts I've seen on this site encourage healing. Sometimes that healing takes place with R. Sometimes with D. I have never seen anyone actively instructing someone to NOT talk to their spouse/SO (except in a few cases of domestic violence).

This site is vital to me for support and understanding. I get a better understanding of myself and my H.

Sites like this as well as IC should never be a substitute to speaking with your partner. They can help in figuring out HOW to bring up difficult subjects.

Secret covos that are working against your true healing and without boundaries are the differences as I see it.

I think it comes down to something as simple as "we can't do it alone."

And yes, I think it is human nature to do this. Maybe that need is stronger with some than with others.

And what becomes the catalyst for emotional investment back into the relationship is two things: Actively investing, and actively receiving.

RS2731

I certainly did not mean to imply there is anyone on this site who is specifically saying “do not talk to your partner”. In the same breath, the fact that many feel or express that this is their safe place, their “go to” place. Every log on, post read and keystroke entered is probably one less conversation or interaction they are having with their partner.

I think outside support is necessary. For instance, my IC can help but doesn't 'know:' my pain in dealing with the OC issues my WH created. She hasn't experienced this circumstance and neither has my WH. He can't fully understand it because he can only experience from his perspective. I at times have shared my feelings with my WH regarding this aspect of his A but he cannot offer me the same type of support that the people do in the ICR OC forum.

Thank god for forums like that. You can't always lean on your SO/WS especially when they created the hurt.

I personally have a policy against PMs with men or sharing personal info with men IRL. I have not been unfaithful but those boundaries avoid the slippery slope and I expect the same from my WH, with some additional ones given his history.

Every log on, post read and keystroke entered is probably one less conversation or interaction they are having with their partner.

Maybe for some people. Honestly, my WH and I talk a lot more - and a lot of it is because of this site and the friends I've made on it. Frequently my postings here are to get some perspective. I'm too damn close to my own situation and sometimes I can't see it clearly. I've had people tell me when they think I'm right and I've had people tell me when they think I'm wrong. It helps to have that outside perspective from people who have, at their core, the same issues.

I have no trouble reading a post and saying - Oh, wow, I totally get that and have great advice. But put me in the same situation and I can't see it.

Also, if I can ask - how many people IRL did your wife tell? I told almost no one, so SI is my support system.

this subject comes up from time to time on si, and the discussions are always good.

I think it comes down to boundaries and the place each persons relationship is in at the time. reconciling? just found out? limbo?

the difference between the interactions you listed and here is that here, there's a commonality, intent, accountability of sorts and group mentality that enforces healthy boundaries that might not be out in the 'real world' where experience and knowledge of the situation exists. that and communication between partners is usually advised here if the situation warrants it. whether or not someone takes that advice...

I see SI more as a friend of the marriage (albeit an anonymous, collective friend).

it's also a good place to vent, to get out the vile that would be hurtful to a partner or relationship. it can give someone the space/time/feedback in order to present something in a healthy, productive way to their partner.

whether a member shares what they do/say here is up to them and unique to their situation. when the other partner is not invested or participating in healing, is the partner seeking help obligated to be transparent? some may use it in an unhealthy way, but from what I've seen, most are not crossing any lines. it's up to them to decide that and keep healthy boundaries in their interactions.

like any tool, resource or source of support, it's how you use it which determines if it's healthy for the unique relationship you're in.

RS2731

Also, if I can ask - how many people IRL did your wife tell? I told almost no one, so SI is my support system.

Mother, brother, sister, others in the family, IC, MC, and maybe more.

Not to be harsh, but does relationship pain outside of infidelity (financial, sexual, loneliness, etc ..)warrant outside intervention, conversation and comforting?

I believe the difference lies in the intent.

The BS on SI can offer something to your BW that you will never be able to...empathy. It is great comfort to just about anyone who can hear from, lean on, ask questions of, etc people who have been through and/or going through the exact same trauma they are.

Why...because they have been there, done that. They have first hand experience with what your BW has gone through, is going through and most likely will go through...you can not. You may be able to sypathize...but not empathize...and the difference between the two is huge when healing from such a devastating trauma.

Of course, in R the line of communication is important between the BP and the WP...but it is not the only path to healing.

Honestly, I wonder if your real problem is you want to keep your A "in house" so to speak...where you have the control and therefore, do not have to truly look into yourself and why you chose such a destructive, hurtful path more than you want to. Nor would you have to deal with exactly what you have done to your BW...by limiting her outlets.

For what it's worth...I do think what I stated above is a very natural reaction for most anyone who has behaved in a way that has brought shame, guilt and pain onto themselves. It's just not healthy to stay in that state.

Why would you revert back to seeking the support and trust from “that person” in your relationship if you already have it readily available in abundance here?

With all due respect to the amazing folks of SI, I need a lot more than just "support and trust" in my life, and pre-A I looked to fWH to provide it all. If my hope wasn't to get back to that, I wouldn't be posting in the R forum.

I can't speak for everyone, but it is hard for fWH to hear every thought I have as I work through them, and I'm not sure it helps either of us when I do. I get a lot of valuable help here, and while I don't disclose the details of every conversation, he can see them (I exchange few PMs, so can't speak to that aspect), and we often talk about how the conversations have ended.

In my case, though, I have always been an open book with fWH, and any privacy I needed started on DDay2 when I felt completely unsafe, and as we have healed as a couple that need has abated. If fWH was not making me feel safe, I can imagine feeling differently now.

Life is so grey and complicated, but sometimes for me it is bright, crystal clear, black and white and simple.

We are social creatures, and I think everyone would agree that the M does not and should not be the only source of fulfillment of our need for social interaction. We need friends, family and acquaintances for different things.

I’m still trying to sort out what I think I need from my W, but it is clear that transparency is one of them. The other is all the emotional needs need to be either met by me or shared with me (transparency). I need to be the go to. Since the A, I need to have some control over who those other people are. I’m hoping as we rebuild trust I will feel safe without that control.

What I get from SI is a place to work through my issues that I am also working through with my wife. Many of the things on your list talk about the spouse not knowing or SI friends being the go-to. That does not work for me. What I need from my relationship is two way transparencies. That means we really don’t like what we see sometimes, but that helps me rebuild trust. So I don’t say anything my wife can’t see because I don’t think anything she can’t know.

When I read about so many people’s relationships here I can see why that does not work for them. They do not feel safe with their partner. I often do not feel safe. I’ve somehow come to the conclusion that I will not be happy in a marriage that does not have this kind of honesty and openness though. So I am willing to risk it. Well my wife does not always feel safe with me either. We are doing the best that we can to get that out in the open and face it as well. There are things I can and should change about me – the negative reaction patterns developed over years of marriage. There are also things she needs to change about her so she can feel safe – things she would need to change to feel safe with anyone.

All this requires an openness to being vulnerable and an openness to change.

Well, SI can also be a slippery slope (and any internet contact by the way). And I believe it happened here as well.

This can happen even with ICs (fiction, by I still remember one Fraser episode where the IC has an affair with Niles wife and asked him How does it make you feel...).

I don't say or write anything here, to my IC or anywhere that I wouldn't or didn't say to my FWW.

Quite honestly, howiheal, I see my x in your posts. I can only hope hat you open your heart and mind to the collective wisdom here. If what you truly desire is a renewed, deeper relationship with your spouse, you will need to learn to trust in what she's doing to heal herself. You need to actively participate in that healing. You will need to accept fully and 100% that your behaviors, actions, thoughts, prejudices and ideas are your own. And your wife's are 100% hers. If you can't get to that point, your road is going to be longer and more tragic than you could possibly fathom.

One of the biggest issues in my relationship was trust. He didn 't trust me with his feelings, needs, desires. He didn't trust me with the full truth of his betrayal. He didn't trust me to be an adult and behave accordingly. The biggest reason for his mistrust was because of projection. He projected his thoughts onto me and assumed I'd behave the same way he did.

Trust your wife's intent here. Don't project your behavior (secrecy, betrayal) onto her.

[This message edited by LadyQ at 11:47 AM, May 25th (Friday)]

Not to be harsh, but does relationship pain outside of infidelity (financial, sexual, loneliness, etc ..)warrant outside intervention, conversation and comforting?

I'm not ignoring your question - I just don't have a good answer to that one because in my situation, infidelity is the only issue that has devastated our M. I have always had friends outside of my M and there are plenty of times that I have (and still do) seek advice from my friends on topics like money and sex. But like so many others have said here, I don't talk to anyone else about anything I can't talk to WH about.

Also, cdnmommy had a great point about it being hard for WH to hear every single thought about the A. SI allows me a place to vent, so I can purge the worst of my anger and then talk to WH about the central issue. Now, he's free to read my posts if he wants to, so maybe he does get to hear all of my thoughts, but I imagine it would be difficult for him if I chose only to talk to him.

This question wasn't directed at me, but I have something to say about it:

does relationship pain outside of infidelity (financial, sexual, loneliness, etc ..)warrant outside intervention, conversation and comforting?

It did for me. FWH is a recovering alchoholic. I had kept his secret since the beginning of the M, and after D-day that was no longer possible. I spent as much time seeking support and healing from the impact of his alcoholism as I did the A.

I can imagine that there are other circumstances where this would be true as well.

SI does not detract from the closeness between FWH and me. We use the threads here as a catalyst for discussion between us, and he often asks what I'm posting about or for updates on specific people, particularly those who we learned from early on.

It's obvious you want your BW to re-invest in your M, but I think you are going about it in poor fashion. This isn't the first time you've come here expressing concern over her time spent with other people getting support. By trying to find justification for why she should depend less on her other sources of support you are doing yourself a disservice and you run the risk of pushing her even further away.

Turn your attention away from this and work on becoming a husband she wants to go to for support. Work on earning her trust back so that she feels safe enough to lean on you.

Your wife will seek support wherever she feels the most safe. You will never be able to argue or reason this out of her. It's a waste of your energy to go down that path.