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I didn't see my post as "swinging" anything. I was trying to explain why he may have said that. His point of view. Giving her insight as to why he said what he said.

Being aware of his pain and knowing his pain are two different things. I didnt realize she didnt want to hear from BS's.

Threw it away,I apologize if my post hurt you. It was certainly not intended to do so. It's clear you are hurting and that you are remorseful and that you have had consequences. You were being told his comment was cruel. I saw it another way and was simply trying to give a different POV.

Was I ever loved, appreciated and honored in the first place?

I understand why you posed this.

But my anwer would be yes..the woman you put before him was you.

Whether it was pretense or genuine.

It is someone you could be because you were able to present that person to him.

The question is..which woman do you prefer to be, seeing that you can be both.

Like Confused, I apologize if my post was bashing. It was not intended to be hurtful. Like Confused, I saw it from a different perspective. Given the emotion in your post, I probably should have kept my opinions to myself.

Sorry. And I really do hope the best for you.

It's all right. It is helpful to read these things -- I often get some new insight into what my husband may be feeling and thinking.

I saw my husband again today, to discuss our impending divorce and our children, and I feel helpless, torn apart.

He lets me say whatever I wish. I finally told him what I have been thinking for awhile now, that he should seek counseling to help him cope with his pain, that his reserve and calm are neither normal nor healthy. He has always disdained all sorts of psychotherapy as "head-shrinking," so it was a subject I was hesitant to approach.

He laughed and said that I should know better than to make such a suggestion to him. He referred to our marriage as "a silly mistake made by youngsters." I don't know if he is trying to hurt me or reassure me; whichever it is, it hurts me.

I do know that I caused all of this and should not be complaining. I really do feel blessed that he will even talk with me face-to-face. I love him so much and I love seeing him, as much as it hurts. It all just fills me with such a feeling of helplessness. I know that I sound like a broken record. I guess that I just need to let it out some place.

threw it away

Admittedly I have limited information but here is my take on it.

You are spot on about his reserve and calm being very unhealthy. Right now the pain you feel when you interact IS his therapy. Eventually you will move on. It is part of your own self-healing process and you will have to forgive (not forget mind you) your actions for yourself. When that happens or when you show any signs of really moving on with your life is when he will crash. No one can be helped who will not allow themselves to be helped. I'm saying this so you are prepared for it.

We were separated without interaction for several months, and he did not "crash." He fulfilled all of his responsibilities and more, he worked and cared for our children

He was deeply angry for that week after d-day #1, but he did calm down and for that time until d-day #2, we would write to each other, every day. There was still hope for reconciling at that time. He was introspective and thoughtful, very much the man I knew and loved. He was finding his way through it all.

It occurred to me that he may have told me that I would be fine because he had already experienced his own recovering. I have also started to become proud of him for being so able to dust himself off and move forward, even if it seems odd. Perhaps that means that I am now finally starting to be able to accept this.

Thank you for letting me know that. I understand it better now. My impression of things was incorrect.

i'm so sorry for your pain.

Brandon, I just re-read what I wrote and I am sorry, I did not mean to be bitchy. I really do want what I see to be real, that he has somehow already risen above it all. It hurts to be considered "a silly mistake" but I have to remind myself that I actually deserve to be called much worse things.

Lost, thank you for your thoughts and I am also sorry for your pain. Try and take solace in that your husband is somehow still with you. I think I would be ready to bear anything if only I had that.

threw it away

Think nothing of it. Your topic says it all. I try to provide some insight as BS myself. I hope what I post is useful, but if my understanding of things is off-base it won't be helpful at all and its perfectly ok to let me know. I'm just sorry I can't do anymore than give support and (((threw it away)))

First of all, your BH statement was cruel and seemingly he has cast you in one role.

but I was struck by this statement. what did you mean by it.

It was not like that. He threw me out nine days after his first discovery. At that time, he did not know that there had been others. I know that this does not put what I did in any better light, but it was not a marriage where I was continually making him suffer. Perhaps in the end, it was worse for him to find out in the way which he did, but if someone would see it as worse had I continually abused his trust in his face, I can say that I did not do that.

Did you believe that only the discovery of your As have caused him pain? And that what he did not know did not hurt him?

I know in my sitch, although I did not know about FWH 2 As, I felt the inattention and the neglect while he was involved with his APs. At the time I was incredibly hurt and did not understand why? After Dday 1 and then subsequently discovering the the earlier online EA did not ease my suffering at the time (although unknown).

forgive me if I misread this statement. it just struck me and i thought I would ask.

Keep working on you. You cannot control what your BH chooses to do, only you.

This is very hard to read. I feel for you and your BH.

Best of luck to you. You never know what can happen.

Did you believe that only the discovery of your As have caused him pain? And that what he did not know did not hurt him?

I know in my sitch, although I did not know about FWH 2 As, I felt the inattention and the neglect while he was involved with his APs. At the time I was incredibly hurt and did not understand why? After Dday 1 and then subsequently discovering the the earlier online EA did not ease my suffering at the time (although unknown).

Until I was caught, we were very happy together. I see now what I would not see before, that we could have had much more were it not for my A's, but he was not in pain.

There were people very close to us who knew about me (although I did not know that they knew). They were surprised at my husband's reaction because most had guessed that we were in a discreet open marriage and that it was clearly good for us. Most were actually shocked to find out that he had known nothing, that I had been deceiving him.

First of all, your BH statement was cruel and seemingly he has cast you in one role.

I don't know how much of the truth he knows in detail, or how much he wants to know, but I really do not deserve any better. I won't accept condemnation from the world but I must accept it from this person who I betrayed so awfully. I am learning just to appreciate these moments he lets me spend with him, even if there is a hurtful comment now and again, because these moments may come to an end any time.

[This message edited by threw it away at 5:07 AM, June 17th (Sunday)]

Do you know for a fact that your BH felt no pain or neglect from you as a result of the time and focus you put to your A's? Or were you able to compartmentalize it so well, that there was never a time when your focus was on your AP and not on him.

I don't know your sitch. From your post it appears to the outside world that you had a good M. In my sitch, everyone was shocked to learn that FWH was cheating on me. They just never suspected. But there were many times I was hurt and in pain, contemplating divorce because I didn't understand what was happening in my own M.

It is possible that your BH suspected something, felt a slight, wondered, but pushed it aside because he truly believed his wife would never cheat. Only to feel like a complete fool to have ignored the signs.

Having an A is selfish, destructive action to the M, not just getting caught. It's just something to consider as you continue working on yourself. The pain of discovery by the BS of betrayal is intense and overwhelming at first. In my sitch, I am even more angry and hurt by the realization that the hurt I expressed to him for all those evenings I wanted him present with me and I felt ignored.

it sounds from your post you feel more regret than remorse. Keep digging and working on you, you deserve a healthy you.

How does the fact that he didn't feel any pain during the As make any difference? What he didn't feel (experience) while you were doing it was certainly felt to its full extent after. I would even argue that it was worse because it was repeated and over a long period of time. If he'd found out after the first one, he'd have had some control over how his life was turning out. Instead, you stole that from him.

The pain was there all right. It's just being felt in its entirety NOW.

[This message edited by Fallen at 10:04 AM, June 17th (Sunday)]

threw it away -

First - that was a terrible thing for him to say. You do not fit neatly into a category. He's placing himself above you so he can feel better. To me, it appears that he's not as healed as you think he is. Being truthful about your past As after d-day was brave and the right thing to do, and it showed that you wanted to change and fix things.

At best, what he said could be considered venting. At worst, he's stuffing his pain and setting himself up for his own bad decisions in the future.

Second - what if we all just decided to refuse to let anyone take away hope from us? What if we all recognized our potential to become exactly what we want to be, with or without our BSs? I think that most of the WSs who post here recognize this on some level. We CAN be better, we CAN be authentic. We ARE willing to work at it. Who has the right to take that away from you? Remember that another person can only take away hope with your permission.

Third (t/j) - big fist bump for aesir and UO. Many of us post in Wayward without the stop sign because we want the BS feedback. Many, many BSs have given me insight and great advice when I needed it. I think that in some cases, BSs may be too close to d-day or dealing with an unremorseful WS or whatever, and are simply unable to deal with a WS's situation. If you are not at the point in your journey as a BS that you know that WSs are in pain and that most of us post here to help us become better people and very often to help us R with our BS, you are not ready to take part in these discussions. I don't say that to be shitty, just to point out that in most cases, we know how horrible our actions were. We don't need to be reminded at every opportunity unless we're posting foggy, unremorseful crap. Many BSs vent by proxy in these forums. I understand that you're in pain and I'm sorry this has happened to you. Just try to remember that this is our safe place too. Appropriate 2x4s are fine, but trying to knock down every WS you can is not. A big thank you to the many, many BSs who understand this and have given great advice and insight in this forum. I would not be where I am without you.

Do you know for a fact that your BH felt no pain or neglect from you as a result of the time and focus you put to your A's?

I think I will never know everything he felt or feels. But he did tell me that during our marriage, he felt loved and cherished. I was a very good actress, he said. Believe me, I am not proud of this. I only wanted to tell what I know.

How does the fact that he didn't feel any pain during the As make any difference? What didn't feel while you were doing it was certainly felt to its full extent after. I would even argue that it was worse because it was repeated and over a long period of time. If he'd found out after the first one, he'd have had some control over how his life was turning out. Instead, you stole that from him.

It was worse, you are right. He was angry and hurt over what he perceived to be lost time spent in a marriage of lies, never to be regained. He is calmer now, but I am still very aware of what I've done.

I did once try to find consolation in the positive aspects of our marriage, but I do not do that any longer. The only thing that matters is that I abused and hurt those three people dearest to me, all for something that I have found I don't even want any more. I think that I will always carry that with me.

About remorse, I don't pretend that I truly know what remorse is. While my husband and I were still communicating well (before d-day #2), I asked him if he felt that I was remorseful. He replied that it did not matter, the main thing was that I never lie to him again. I still despise myself for being afraid to tell the truth at the time when it may have made all the difference. I still feel horribly unworthy of what was given to me, what I squandered. Is that remorse? It won't do any good to ask him now.

Longroadhome -- no amount of self-improvement will fix the damage I've done to my loved ones, and especially won't fix what I've done to my husband. It will never be washed away, and I don't want it to be. Is he placing himself above me? Perhaps, but he does have that right, doesn't he?

Longroadhome, if you have a concern about posts in the Wayward forum, you need to bring it to the attention of the moderators. Do not take swipes at the BSes who are posting in this forum on threads with no stopsigns. They are permitted to do so and since we heavily moderate this forum, it is not fair to depict the BSes who take time to support and advise WSes here as "shitty."

Take what YOU need and leave the rest, and if you have an issue, bring it to the mods.

I'm impressed with your insight and your apparent remorse. Keep working on yourself. If you were too far gone in the whole "your kind" alien, serial cheater world, you would not have this sort of introspection and (sorry) pain.

That said, it's over for this marriage. All you can do now, IMO, to demonstrate the regard you have for him and for your deep remorse is to coparent with him as respectfully and kindly as you can. You'll have to do that for the next decade -- and that's a lot of time to show your character. And it's a good thing to do for your children -- to respect their dad and speak of him with kindness and admiration. You have a lot to UN-do in that department, cheating is so intensely disrespectful. So while you cannot be marriage partners, you can be parent partners. I'd focus on that.

I finally told him what I have been thinking for awhile now, that he should seek counseling to help him cope with his pain, that his reserve and calm are neither normal nor healthy.

With all due respect, it's not your job any more to help him with his pain, or point out his faults. You're divorcing. And you put him in this position, so even if you're correct, pointing out his poor coping skills will be offensive to him.

Silent and reserved takes a lot of control. He's not raging at you or disrespecting you. And while he might not go in for shrinkage, he must be doing something right, if he's moved on the way you say he has.

I'm sorry you're in pain. Please let him go, and just work on yourself now and being the best co-parent you can be. That's the best gift you can give him AND your kids.